annulments

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puzzleannie:
what happened during that 30 years has nothing to do with grounds for annulment. A decree of nullity is issued by the tribunal of the diocese after an exhaustive investigation, in which both parties and witnesses they provide tell their stories, only if the conditions required for valid consent existed at the time of the marriage. The conditions are specific, not vague, and are judged on evidence pertaining to the circumstances existing at the time vows were exchanged. What happened after the wedding is relevant only if it sheds light on those circumstances.

The children of the marriage are legitimate, their status is not affected in any way. We either accept the authority of the Church in this matter, or as in so many other areas, we reject it.

we do not know and cannot comment on the possible grounds for annulment, like confession, this is confidential.
In my case, I believe my ex-wifes unwillingness to have our daughter raised as Catholic, although she agreed to before we were married, had a lot to do with my annulment. But even at that, it took a little over a year, and only after many probing and personal questions asked of my wife and I. Don’t let anybody tell you that it’s easy. It’s not!
 
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stanley123:
Anyway, let me ask you this: What percentage of these annulments do you think are due to people who have converted to Catholicism? the cases that I know about would not fit into that category.
I think that it is likely that it is a very large percentage. I know of around twenty nullities myself. Again, I live a town of about 80000 with less than 1% of the population being Catholic. Of all the nullities I have knowledge of, all of them are converts or are the spouse of a convert. I do not know of a single one here that either of the parties to the marriage sought to be declared null were Catholic at the time of the marriage. I think there are a lot more converts than people imagine. I am not saying that Catholics to not file them. I am not saying that converts account for all of the increase. I just believe that it is at least possible that it is a major factor.
 
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jrabs:
OK - Stanley, time to cough up more data on your claim above. Please provide the reasons available in 1930 (CCC please) vs the current reasons.

I am happy that you have not had to deal with someone mentally ill in a marriage situation. I wish this on NO ONE! But it also seems a pity that you do not want to acknowledge that psychological reasons can hinder or impair judgment and the ability to make vows to God.

Now time to provide some CCC references please for your claims.
Obviously, if someone were seriously mentally ill, he would have an impediment to contracting a marriage. For your other question, please see the US Catholic , April 1997 issue, p. 6, “Annullments…” You can read here that since Vatican II, the presence of psychological factors has been accepted as grounds for annulments. In other words, the Church has changed her teaching on what constitutes proper grounds for annulments. She has now admitted the use of soft psychological factors, which were not admitted in 1930. Also please see the statement of Pope John Paul II to the Roman Rota, January 29, 2004: “The tendency to instrumentally broaden the causes for nullity, losing sight of the bounds of objective truth, involves a structural distortion of the entire process.”
 
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stanley123:
I thought what I said was that the Church has changed its mind about what constitutes a reason or a ground for a marriage annulment. I don;t recall mentioning anything at all about authority .That is not an issue. The question was whether or not the Church had changed her teaching, not whether or not she had the authority to do so.
The teaching you are referring to that the Church has had for the last 200 years is in indissolubility of marriage.

That teaching has not changed.

The Church also has had, for 2000 years, exceptions to the issue of indissolubility; they started with what are called the Pauline and Petrine privileges, or exceptions. I will let you research them in the New Testament.

Even prior to 1930, the Church recognized that in some circumstances, there was no Sacrament, as there was no intent.

The Church did not change the teaching - marriage is still indissoluble - but it did say that there were additional issues which go to intent; either the intent itself, or the ability to make that intent.

That is not a change in the teaching; it is a greater awareness of what constitutes intent. That is within the disciplinary power of the Church; it is not a change in the Sacrament, as intent is still necessary (and by the way, presumed from the exchange of vows itself), but the issue is the same as it was in 1930; did the parties form the necessary intent.
 
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Aesq:
I think that it is likely that it is a very large percentage. I know of around twenty nullities myself. Again, I live a town of about 80000 with less than 1% of the population being Catholic. Of all the nullities I have knowledge of, all of them are converts or are the spouse of a convert. I do not know of a single one here that either of the parties to the marriage sought to be declared null were Catholic at the time of the marriage. I think there are a lot more converts than people imagine. I am not saying that Catholics to not file them. I am not saying that converts account for all of the increase. I just believe that it is at least possible that it is a major factor.
it is.
 
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stanley123:
Obviously, if someone were seriously mentally ill, he would have an impediment to contracting a marriage. For your other question, please see the US Catholic , April 1997 issue, p. 6, “Annullments…” You can read here that since Vatican II, the presence of psychological factors has been accepted as grounds for annulments. In other words, the Church has changed her teaching on what constitutes proper grounds for annulments. She has now admitted the use of soft psychological factors, which were not admitted in 1930. Also please see the statement of Pope John Paul II to the Roman Rota, January 29, 2004: “The tendency to instrumentally broaden the causes for nullity, losing sight of the bounds of objective truth, involves a structural distortion of the entire process.”
In part that is due to the fact that psychology was a relatively knew and relatively undtested science in 1930. Our information base is tremendously larger now than it was then.

I am aware of what John Paul 2 said. I am also aware that it was brought to his attention by members of the Curia, as that is how he (and just about any pope) gets their information. It is therefore incumbent on anyone who wishes to take his statement as difinitive of the issue, to determine if a full and fair hearing was provided of the issue to him.

To explain: his reaction to the sex abuse scandal in the US was somewhat muted, as has been noted elsewhere. It would appear that there were several factors at play: a disbelief that it was as abd as it was; the all too common reaction of Europeans largely unfamiliar with our legal system that it was a tempest in a tea pot (in other words, not as aggregious as we found it to be, coupled with what to Europeans is an outrageously out of control legal system granting extremely excessive awards in general), and like as not, a shielding of the Pope from the full range of information for some time.

In other words, he sounded as if the whole system was rankly out of line and annulments were being given for little or no reason at all. Yet no one, from the Pope on down, ahs given a dissection of any cases showing that they were imnproperly granted. And given the state of catechesis for the last generation, if not the last two, one has to seriously ask whether people fed a diet of constant sex by the media who are also not being taught clear moral values by their Church can form the necessary intent to confect the Sacrament. Given the rate of approximately half of all couples coming to the altar while openly living together, and add to that another group sexually active but not openly living together, who is going to stand up and say they even have a clue what marriage is about? And given the secular and Protestant view of marriage (from actual practice) that if it doesn’t work out, you move on, coupled with the fact that so many Catholics get a divorce just like every one else does, it should be blatantly clear that a lot of folks approaching the altar hold the same consensus of views: gee, we would like it to last a lifetime, but…

And that does not make for valid consent! Valid consent isn’t simply saying “for better and for worse”; valid consent means you fully intend to get married and stay married. None of this back of the mind “well, if it doesn’t work out…” that seems to be the current mind set.

The only thing I am surprised about is that there aren’t way more annulments than there are.
 
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otm:
And that does not make for valid consent! Valid consent isn’t simply saying “for better and for worse”; valid consent means you fully intend to get married and stay married. None of this back of the mind “well, if it doesn’t work out…” that seems to be the current mind set.
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Is it a mortal sin to simulate a Sacrament?
 
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stanley123:
Is it a mortal sin to simulate a Sacrament?
OK, let’s go back to the Baltimore Catechism: a mortla sin requires serious matter, knowledge of the serious matter, and intent.

So the answer is that objectively, yes, it is a sin to simulate a Sacrament.

Subjectively, let’s go back to the issue of catechesis. If people were not taught that the Sacrament is permanent - until death - they would not have the knowlege sufficient to commit a mortal sin.

If they were not taught the seriousness with which the Church takes the Sacraments - in other words, they were not taught that simulating a Sacrament was a serious sin - then they do not have sufficient knowledge to commit a mortal sin.

And if you are unaware of how poorly a generation or so has been taught, ask questions of, say, 30 to 40 year olds. Or for that matter, 50 year olds.
 
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otm:
Subjectively, let’s go back to the issue of catechesis. If people were not taught that the Sacrament is permanent - until death - they would not have the knowlege sufficient to commit a mortal sin…
Hs the Catholic Church defected in its responsibility to inform people that the Sacrament of Matrimony is permanent until death?
 
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stanley123:
Hs the Catholic Church defected in its responsibility to inform people that the Sacrament of Matrimony is permanent until death?
See my answers involving catechesis.

Short answer is “To a certain extent, yes”.

I say "certain extent because after all the damage, the bishops finally woke up and realized that they had produced a generation + who knew little or nothing of what their faith was, or how it was distinguished from any particular Protestant faith, and they have cleaned up the grade school catechetical works and are working on the high scholl set (if not completed by now).

However, society as a whole has become moruch more sex saturated and sex driven; the media takes the position (spoken some, more often unspoken) that anyone who is chaste is a freak, or an isolated, naieve, definitely not “with it” individual. Watch just about any tv movie - drama or comedy - and there will be someone living together; the most recent addition is the openly active homosexuals living together. marriage is for making babies and who wants babies when they can habve the beautiful clothes, fast cars and big houses? Society has become more and more secularized; and as it does so, people become more and more desensitized to ethical and moral issues, whcih makes the Church’s mission and message that much harder to convey.

By the time a couple comes to the altar (and statistically, that has moved to the late 20’s not for first time marriages) they have had about 15 years since puberty (or approximately 1/2 of their life) being inundated with a very false conception of what marriage is about. Couple that to the divorce rate around 50% or better, and you wonder why there are so many annulments?

I repeat my remark; my only surprise is that there aren’t more. People cannot make a lifetime committment as the Church understands that if they do not understand, to begin with, that marriage is a lifetime commitment.

And note: there is a difference between knowledge (that’s what Father taught") and understanding. I may have knowledge of an equation in Calculus, but I can guarantee you I don’t understand it, and sure can’t apply it.
 
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otm:
See my answers involving catechesis.
See the article in Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005, by Sheryl Temaat, Judging invalidity the American Way:
"Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.
But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”? "
 
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stanley123:
See the article in Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005, by Sheryl Temaat, Judging invalidity the American Way:
"Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.
But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”? "
“Invincible ignorance” has nothing to do with annulments. It seems to me that if you are going to write an article to trash the Church, you should at least get the facts right.
 
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Catholic2003:
It seems to me that if you are going to write an article to trash the Church, you should at least get the facts right.
Do you say that the conservative Catholic journal Homiletic and Pastoral Review is carrying articles out to “trash the Church”?
 
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stanley123:
Do you say that the conservative Catholic journal Homiletic and Pastoral Review is carrying articles out to “trash the Church”?
I’m saying that particular article is trashing the Church, and that it completely misrepresents the Church’s teaching on annulments in order to do so.

I have no knowldege about or opinion on the journal of Homiletic and Pastoral Review generally.
 
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stanley123:
See the article in Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005, by Sheryl Temaat, Judging invalidity the American Way:
"Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.
But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”? "
i’m not sure what you think this has to do with anything - what point of otm’s do you believe is refuted by this passage?

as catholic2003 points out, the issue of annulments has got nothing to do with invincible ignorance - the ignorance sufficient for marital nullity can be - and probably usually is - vincible. what matters is that one or both of the parties to the sacrament lacked sufficient knowledge to perfect the intent required to confect the sacrament. the “vincibility” of the ignorance is relevant only to the subjective guilt of the individual for any wrongdoing that might have been involved.

and, to otm’s point concerning poor catechesis, do you really believe that making information “available” is the same thing as teaching?
 
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Catholic2003:
I’m saying that particular article is trashing the Church…
I don’t see the article as trashing the Church at all. It is expressing the author’s concern with the present procedures used by the American tribunal in determining whether or not an annulment should be granted. And it is in agreement with the statements of Pope John Paul II:
1.Please see the statement of Pope John Paul II to the Roman Rota, January 29, 2004: “The tendency to instrumentally broaden the causes for nullity, losing sight of the bounds of objective truth, involves a structural distortion of the entire process.”
2. “on the one hand the concept of marriage as a reciprocal gift of persons would seem to justify a vague doctrinal and jurispudential tendency to broaden the requirements for capacity of psychological maturity and for the freedom and awareness necessary to contract marriage validly; on the other hand certain applications of the tendency, by bringing out its inherent ambiguities, are rightly perceived as conflicting with the principle of indissolubility…”
With reference3 to the question on catechesis, I think that the statement of Sheryl Temaat speaks to that:
"Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.
But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”? "
 
I’ve been through the annulment process so I know that the validity of a marriage is determined by how the 2 people actually entered the marriage. However, this question has started me thinking in a different direction.

What about people whose marriage could be annuled but they never know because they’re still married and don’t have any plans to divorce? If the marriage wasn’t a sacrament at the beginning, what does that mean to the people who are still married?:confused:
 
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stanley123:
I don’t see the article as trashing the Church at all. It is expressing the author’s concern with the present procedures used by the American tribunal in determining whether or not an annulment should be granted.
Perhaps I am being too harsh on Mrs. Temaat. But I do think she has gone well beyond “concern” in her article, to the point of having judged the American tribunals and already found them guilty. For example, statements as:
However no one can be perfect enough today to survive a Petitioner’s efforts to have his or her marriage declared null by most American diocesan tribunals.
First of all, parish priests can counsel couples to preserve their marriages and avoid the tribunal’s lax methods.
 
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stanley123:
See the article in Homiletic and Pastoral Review, January 2005, by Sheryl Temaat, Judging invalidity the American Way:
"Some argue that people getting married today aren’t properly catechized, that the culture we live in doesn’t teach them to value commitment so they don’t know how to do that, and that they lack integrity and maturity.
But I argue that information is available today as it has never been available before. Hardly anyone can claim invincible ignorance about the Church’s teachings today. But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”? "
You and I have already had it out in another thread concerning this woman’s opinions.

In short, she shows no knowledge or understanding of law at all , let alone Canon law. She attempts to take a line buy line approach to issues that are evidentiary, and feels that she can show that annulements are improperly garanted because she has an answer to each line, as if a counter arguement to an issue of evidence disproves the evidence.

In short, it doesn’t. She acts as if a single evidentiary fact is the critical turning point of a case; and most are not. Most are simply evidence of something else; the point sought to prove.

For example, in reworking line by line a whole series of evidentiary examples of what a narcissistic personality consists of, she attempts to say that everyone is rude to their mother at times, or gets distracted by hobbies (in this case working out in a gym several hours a day); in the end, because she says that almost everyone has done one or more things that a narcissistic personality has done, and therefore all could get an annulment by showing some of the evidence similar to the example. That is unadulterated poppycock by an ignoramus.

Could a tribunal be too pastoral in its approach and grant an annulment on weak evidence? Of course; they are human just as much as every one else; but I am still waiting hard evidence that the tribunals as a whole, or even as a majority, or even as a signifcant minority, are abusing the rules of evidence and finding lack of consent where there was adequate consent.

When that evidence comes in, if it ever does, it is going to have to come from the cases themselves; and as I presume there is an element of confidentiality to them not existing in civil cases (which are public), it will have to come from case histories cleaned up enough that one cannot easily identify the parties.

If the arguement is simply that psychology is “soft”, that is a different issue. Some psychology has been (and that is being charitible), and some of it hasn’t. The Church felt that in its Widom, there were issues of a psychological nature that went to the heart of the Sacrament, namely, intent. I don’t see that changing; that is, I don’t see anyone bringing evidence that psychology cannot assist us in determining if the proper intent was there at the beginning of the ceremony.
 
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stanley123:
Do you say that the conservative Catholic journal Homiletic and Pastoral Review is carrying articles out to “trash the Church”?
I would say that the editor had a slow day and needed to fill space. Her article betrays a vast ignorance of how cases are tried - either in Canon or civil law - and she operates throughout the article by seein only single lines of evidentiary information and shows no ability to stand back and review the entire evidence to see if a pattern emerges. Essentially, she denies a good deal of psychollogy and psychiatry; for example, she tries to dismiss a narcissistic personality finding by showing that everyone may have, at one point in their life, done one or even several of the acts at one time or another; she draws the apparent conclusion that because a lot of people might have been rude to someone in their family, and might have been tied up with a hobby, that therefore everyone is narcissistic, and therefore no one is.

I would not say that the Review was out to trash the Church; I would say that if that is the best they could do to try and show there are too many annulments, that they have not only failed, but made themselves look foolish.
There are a lot of people who, if confronted with a legal issue, and the explanation of why the issue was decided the way it was, would come away convinced that attorneys and judges are all liars and there is a vast conspiracy to cheat anyone and everyone whom they come across. In short, they do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the intricacies of law. That does not make them bad people; at most, it makes them relatively simple and unable to understand nuances.

It does not, however, mean that there is any truth to their conclusions.
 
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