Annulments

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The secularization of Europe has also skewed the numbers. Americans tend to think of themselves as religious (a whole 'nother thread needed as to whether or not that is true šŸ˜‰ ), and, therefore, where your ā€œaverage European Catholicā€ (however that may be defined) would remarry outside the Church without ever thinking of seeking an annulment, your ā€œaverage American Catholicā€ (same caveat) would be much more likely to seek the Church’s sanction of their new marriage. And up go the numbers again.
I am just responding to the ā€œ6% of the catholic populationā€ [assuming this is a reference to worldwide population numbers] and ā€œ75% of the annullmentsā€ … being a
US figure … your point [as I attepted to point out in my first post] is well taken, many factors come to play … and I still feel [after reading the posts and the linked article] that the two statistics are not defined well enough for any relative analysis to occur …

The old adage that "statistics don’t lie but liers use statistics" is somehting we shoud all keep in mind when we read conclusions [opinions] that cite statistics [especially limited and loosely co-related statistics]
 
how is it hostile to observe that
a) this very question has been discussed many times here, most recently in the last couple of months
b) most people participating in those discussions pose their own opinions or amusing annulment anecdotes as gospel truth
c) offering an answer to your direct question, namely ā€œwhy is that?ā€.

if you don’t want an answer don’t ask the question
that is not hostility that is reality

note OP also offers a quote without a source, without a link, as truth, without any thing to back it up, and then solicits comment on it, as if it were fact. how is asking for documentation of radical claims hostile?
Looks like you are still at it so I’ll bow out! I guess you got out of bed on the wrong side.
 
Looks like you are still at it so I’ll bow out! I guess you got out of bed on the wrong side.
Thistle … can you find some in depth statistics to dscuss?

Did you see the connection between numbers of annullments and the fact that the catholic church makes annulment decisions on a larger population than just catholics annd on marriages that occurr outside the catholic area of reach … ???

Do you have no comments upon that …

All of this in no way mmeans that divorce is not something many people [catholic and non catholic] leap to in too much of a hurry! It in no way diminishes the the hurt caused by divorce [or the option many people chose today - not getting married at all]
 
It could also mean that there are way more invalid Marriages in the USA, because of the lack of adequate catechesis, especially about the Sacraments and the attitude of american society in general.
I would add attitudes by priests as well, but their attitude is probably obtained from painful experience. I had one tell me that it was a couples ā€œrightā€ to get married. This was after I asked him that if the precana team thought there were serious issues should we tell him so as to get the marriage at least postponed.
 
It could also mean that there are way more invalid Marriages in the USA, because of the lack of adequate catechesis, especially about the Sacraments and the attitude of american society in general.
Amen:thumbsup:

I have been told that American Catholics take church law way more seriously than Europeans do. So maybe we just submit our failed marriages to the church for judgement more often than they do.
 
I was only holding it up as an example of the way society has changed, particularly for Catholics. Their marriage was most likely invalid, but without a divorce there was no way to have it investigated and Catholics didn’t divorce.

It’s logical that a greater number of divorces = a greater number of decrees of nullity.
It is true that in the ā€œold daysā€ Catholics, for the most part, didn’t divorce. (Neither did most non-Catholics.) However, the Church never fobade civil divorce as an option for a troubled, particularly a violent, marriage. But one couldn’t presume that the mere fact of a divorce would lead to an annulment being granted.

But in seeking a civil divorce, one had to show grounds for divorce. Divorce was not automatically granted by civil courts, and a petition for divorce could be contested. (There were even such things as lawsuits against 3rd parties for ā€˜alienation of affection.’)

The big, and in my view, marriage-destroying change of no-fault, unilateral, divorce, however, meant that marriage vows were civilly meaningless and unenforceable. Either party could walk away at a whim.
 
In every article I have read which has taken the postion that there are too many annulments, there are selective statistics, illogical arguments, presumptions and assumptions. It is an area that is problematic, and is so often presumed to indicate sloppy theology. The truth seems to be at least in part, somewhere else.

It would take a great deal of naivety to believe that every last annulment granted since the change in Canon law has been properly granted. But the presumption that seems to accompany these articles is that many (meaning a large number) to better than half of them are phony.

I really don’t think that anyone has come up with any sort of survey that can establish such a fact, as the information of the annulment grounds is almost entirely apocryphal; it is not as if there was a public record of the proceedings of each case. So to begin with, the actual basis of the decisions with all the supporting facts is generally not available.

Short of a large sampling of entire cases from a broad range of diocesan tribunals, there is a critical lack of evidence.

But let’s look at it another way. To begin with, catechesis started to be dumbed down in the early 70’s. There are about two generations out there who know little or nothing about the sacraments (or much of anthing else to do with the Faith). In addition, we live in a world that for the last umpteen years has been super-saturated with sex; estimates are that 80 to 90% of people entering marriage have had intercourse prior to marriage, and a large number of them have lived together openly; this didn’t start 5 or 10 years ago. Nor are Catholics immune to this issue, jsut as they are not immune to ABC.

If for no other reason than the dumbing down of Catholic teaching, there are a whole lot of people who have little or no idea of marriage as a sacrament, and as a permanent state of life (until death…).

But let’s go a bit further.

There are about 50,000 to 60,000 annulments a year.

A portion of them are for form - that is, a Catholic got married without a dispensation, that is, without having a priest as the official witness. In other words, in front of a minister or some other official such as a judge. Automatic grant of annulment; however, the number of Catholics who do this is likey much larger than it used to be, where now about 30 - 35 % of Catholics attend Mass regularly, and back when we had the old Code, about 70% did.

We now have many more ā€œmixedā€ marriages than we used to; with a larger number of spouses who were not Catholic to begin with, and had who knows what attitude toawards the permanency of marriage; given that many Protestant Churches are not exactly explicit about divorce being a no-no, they come with whatever baggage to the tribunal. No surprise they might be gtranted one.

And then we have the Catholics I first mentioned, who may do the form right, but were raised with a ā€œbutterflyā€ form of religious training.

But, since this is about statistics, lets talk about the one the articles never mention.

There are about 50 to 60,000 annulments. But there are about 8,000,000 Catholics who are divorced.

Which means that about less than 3/4ths of one percent of the divorced Catholics are getting an annulment (we have already established that not all who get an annulment are Catholic).

Put in that perspective, one wonders why there are not way more people getting one. With the absolutely abysmal history over the last 35 to 40 years of catechesis, and the attitude of society in general (which always, throughout hsitory, has had an impact on Catholics), I find it bemusing that people would protest that there are too many granted. Bemused is perhaps not a strong enough word.
 
I am not hostile
hostile is an attitude directed toward a person
I am not responding to persons
I am responding to posts
the post in question throws out a meaningless statistic entirely out of context, which I challenge for source and attribution
a request for further info is not a hostile action
a personal attack would be a hostile action, like making preconceived judgements about the marital history of people who are total strangers to me.
offering personal opinion to a poster who has asked for it is not hostile, just because it contradicts opinions of others.
 
In every article I have read which has taken the postion that there are too many annulments, there are selective statistics, illogical arguments, presumptions and assumptions. It is an area that is problematic, and is so often presumed to indicate sloppy theology. The truth seems to be at least in part, somewhere else.

It would take a great deal of naivety to believe that every last annulment granted since the change in Canon law has been properly granted. But the presumption that seems to accompany these articles is that many (meaning a large number) to better than half of them are phony.

I really don’t think that anyone has come up with any sort of survey that can establish such a fact, as the information of the annulment grounds is almost entirely apocryphal; it is not as if there was a public record of the proceedings of each case. So to begin with, the actual basis of the decisions with all the supporting facts is generally not available.

Short of a large sampling of entire cases from a broad range of diocesan tribunals, there is a critical lack of evidence.

But let’s look at it another way. To begin with, catechesis started to be dumbed down in the early 70’s. There are about two generations out there who know little or nothing about the sacraments (or much of anthing else to do with the Faith). In addition, we live in a world that for the last umpteen years has been super-saturated with sex; estimates are that 80 to 90% of people entering marriage have had intercourse prior to marriage, and a large number of them have lived together openly; this didn’t start 5 or 10 years ago. Nor are Catholics immune to this issue, jsut as they are not immune to ABC.

If for no other reason than the dumbing down of Catholic teaching, there are a whole lot of people who have little or no idea of marriage as a sacrament, and as a permanent state of life (until death…).

But let’s go a bit further.

There are about 50,000 to 60,000 annulments a year.

A portion of them are for form - that is, a Catholic got married without a dispensation, that is, without having a priest as the official witness. In other words, in front of a minister or some other official such as a judge. Automatic grant of annulment; however, the number of Catholics who do this is likey much larger than it used to be, where now about 30 - 35 % of Catholics attend Mass regularly, and back when we had the old Code, about 70% did.

We now have many more ā€œmixedā€ marriages than we used to; with a larger number of spouses who were not Catholic to begin with, and had who knows what attitude toawards the permanency of marriage; given that many Protestant Churches are not exactly explicit about divorce being a no-no, they come with whatever baggage to the tribunal. No surprise they might be gtranted one.

And then we have the Catholics I first mentioned, who may do the form right, but were raised with a ā€œbutterflyā€ form of religious training.

But, since this is about statistics, lets talk about the one the articles never mention.

There are about 50 to 60,000 annulments. But there are about 8,000,000 Catholics who are divorced.

Which means that about less than 3/4ths of one percent of the divorced Catholics are getting an annulment (we have already established that not all who get an annulment are Catholic).

Put in that perspective, one wonders why there are not way more people getting one. With the absolutely abysmal history over the last 35 to 40 years of catechesis, and the attitude of society in general (which always, throughout hsitory, has had an impact on Catholics), I find it bemusing that people would protest that there are too many granted. Bemused is perhaps not a strong enough word.
otjm,
Thank you for this well presented argument. It touches on most of the salient points that make this issue so difficult to understand.
An additional factor would be the vastly different cultures and moral norms around the world. The statistic in the OP indicated the disparity of the percentage of Catholics worldwide vs the percentage of annulments but does not address any other factors that could effect this.
There are a great many differences across cultures in how faith, marriage, and divorce are viewed and practiced. For instance, how many cultures wink and look the other way if a man is unfaithful? How many cultures still accept, at least to some degree, physical abuse in a marriage?
Using a single, worldwide statistic like in the OP simply provides no basis for any kind of logical conclusion.

Peace
James
 
otjm,
Thank you for this well presented argument. It touches on most of the salient points that make this issue so difficult to understand.
An additional factor would be the vastly different cultures and moral norms around the world. The statistic in the OP indicated the disparity of the percentage of Catholics worldwide vs the percentage of annulments but does not address any other factors that could effect this.
There are a great many differences across cultures in how faith, marriage, and divorce are viewed and practiced. For instance, how many cultures wink and look the other way if a man is unfaithful? How many cultures still accept, at least to some degree, physical abuse in a marriage?
Using a single, worldwide statistic like in the OP simply provides no basis for any kind of logical conclusion.

Peace
James
You are correct; there are numerous reasons the statistics vary. An additional one is that in third world countries, not everyone has a fax or access to one; they may not have access to a typewriter, let alone a computer. That in and of itself makes the process of collecting information tedious at best. Add to that the fact that many dioceses simply do not have a tribunal, or do not have them staffed to anywhere near the amount that the US does, and one is simply not going to see the number of cases processed.

In addition, the secularization of Europe has lead to areas that have half to one sixth the number of people regularly attending Mass. If only 15% to 5% of the Catholics attend Mass on a regualr basis, one would reasonably expect that fewer people would even apply for an annulment. Couple that with the fact you mentioned, that the US tends to an attitude of fuss a lot about a law they do not like, but obey, as opposed to a more European attitude of apparent acceptance, but simply ignoring the law, and you have a fairly astute analysis of how we and they approach marriage laws.
 
I guess thistle is not coming back …

or perhaps he is looking for some more in depth statistics so we can have a real discussion…

While I am sure that the information can be found somewhere [at least you hope that they keep records]. Perhaps it has never been important enough for anyone to do the breakdown and complete analysis …

Usually catholic statistics are presented very broadly… except for those that deal with church attendance and politics - then you see some in depth information gathering [but even there - it has only been inrecent years where they distinguish between regular mass goers and the CEO’s [Christmas Easter and Obituary catholics]… does anyone have any in depth statistics on marriages, divorce and annulments processed by the catholic church?

My guess is someone whould have posted them by now if they were obtainable …

I know the Orthodox keep records that break down the marriages and divorce rates between orthodox and inter-christian marriages and divorces … they don’t have a category for non-christian [perhaps they don’t perform marriages between non-christians and orthodox - I have no knowledge except that there is not a category listed as such or even benignly labled ā€˜other’] and the only statistics for the orthodox I have is from 2002 and only Greek Orthodox Archdioces of America …
 
I guess thistle is not coming back …

or perhaps he is looking for some more in depth statistics so we can have a real discussion…

While I am sure that the information can be found somewhere [at least you hope that they keep records]. Perhaps it has never been important enough for anyone to do the breakdown and complete analysis …

Usually catholic statistics are presented very broadly… except for those that deal with church attendance and politics - then you see some in depth information gathering [but even there - it has only been inrecent years where they distinguish between regular mass goers and the CEO’s [Christmas Easter and Obituary catholics]… does anyone have any in depth statistics on marriages, divorce and annulments processed by the catholic church?

My guess is someone whould have posted them by now if they were obtainable …

I know the Orthodox keep records that break down the marriages and divorce rates between orthodox and inter-christian marriages and divorces … they don’t have a category for non-christian [perhaps they don’t perform marriages between non-christians and orthodox - I have no knowledge except that there is not a category listed as such or even benignly labled ā€˜other’] and the only statistics for the orthodox I have is from 2002 and only Greek Orthodox Archdioces of America …
I don’t know of any direct source of information about the number of Catholics divorced other than the minimal amount I gleaned concerning the total; perhaps CARA has such statistics but I have not made an effort to find out if they do. It was not on the website I used. I would not be surprised to find out there is such information, but I do not know the source.
 
To all:

In Holy Scripture marriage is spoken of as a very sacred event
which God wishes to bless a lifetime. What is disconcerting
in lieu of scriptures Matthew 19:3-9, Mk 10:1-12, Gn 1:27 etc
is what has happened to this sacrament.
After Vatican II it appears that with the annulment process that
maybe we are forgetting how special this marriage vow is.
In the United States (you can check the facts) over 85% of
persons who want their current marriage annulled is granted.
And that the U.S. has 75% of all the worlds annulments even
though we have only 6% of the worlds population. Something
is not quite right-note like in Italy-only 37% of persons who go
for annulments are granted.
Yes there are bad marriages out there. And definitely we need
to do a better job of pre-marriage planning. But it appears in the
states here-if want to get divorce and remarry in the church you
have a very very good chance. Have we possibly lost sight of
Gods command on this subject? Something to think about.

Timothy Bauer
Reno, Nevada
 
To all:

In Holy Scripture marriage is spoken of as a very sacred event
which God wishes to bless a lifetime. What is disconcerting
in lieu of scriptures Matthew 19:3-9, Mk 10:1-12, Gn 1:27 etc
is what has happened to this sacrament.
After Vatican II it appears that with the annulment process that
maybe we are forgetting how special this marriage vow is.
In the United States (you can check the facts) over 85% of
persons who want their current marriage annulled is granted.
And that the U.S. has 75% of all the worlds annulments even
though we have only 6% of the worlds population. Something
is not quite right-note like in Italy-only 37% of persons who go
for annulments are granted.
Yes there are bad marriages out there. And definitely we need
to do a better job of pre-marriage planning. But it appears in the
states here-if want to get divorce and remarry in the church you
have a very very good chance. Have we possibly lost sight of
Gods command on this subject? Something to think about.

Timothy Bauer
Reno, Nevada
May I suggest that you do a search on this site of annullment threads. You will see these statistics torn apart repeatedly.

As for the apparent discrepency that your poor and disjointed statistic pretends to point up:
May I suggest that there are large differences between American and Italian Society.
Also may I point out that no one is forced to have a marriage annulled.
Further, may I point out that, if only 10 people apply for an annulment and 9 are granted the statistic is 90% but proves nothing.
If other societies frown on divorces and annulments to the point where people stay in marriages that are improper, physically or emotionally abusive is that better?
If other societies have couples who divorce, are unfaithful, remarry without annulment or other infractions is that better than having a large annullment approval percentage?

People want to throw out these ā€œsound biteā€ percentages but few want to really take the time to look at the big picture.

Peace
James
 
To all:

After Vatican II it appears that with the annulment process that
maybe we are forgetting how special this marriage vow is.
In the United States (you can check the facts) over 85% of
persons who want their current marriage annulled is granted.
And that the U.S. has 75% of all the worlds annulments even
though we have only 6% of the worlds population. Something
is not quite right-note like in Italy-only 37% of persons who go
for annulments are granted.
Yes there are bad marriages out there. And definitely we need
to do a better job of pre-marriage planning. But it appears in the
states here-if want to get divorce and remarry in the church you
have a very very good chance. Have we possibly lost sight of
Gods command on this subject? Something to think about.

Timothy Bauer
Reno, Nevada
Your first statistic - 85% - ignores a few things. It ignores the people who go to a pastor to start a case and find out they do not have evidence of nullity; they do not show in your 85%.

Then to that, add the people who start a case and do not reach a decision - most of the time because they cannot actually present evidence of nullity. They, too, do not enter the statistics as the cases are either dismissed or lapse; in either event, no declaration is made, so they do not appear among the 15% that actually have a decision rendered.

So in all of the above, the 85% is essentially lacking correct and complete information, and is skewed by the fact that it does not address the numerous people who start towards a decree of nullity and never get one.

The second statistic needs to be looked at in several ways. In Europe, the averages of Mass attendance (with the exceptions of countries that were previously under Communist control) are between 15% and 5% of the entire Catholic population, for weekly attendance. Want to guess what the other 85 to 95% think about anullments? They don’t bother, just as they don’t bother showing up for Mass. So comparing the US with Europe is playing apples and centauers. They don’t compare.

As to third world countries, many dioceses simply do not have the funds to be able to put together a tribunal and keep it in motion; add to that the unavailability of the means of communications we have and the problem multiplies. The presumption is made that if other countries don’t have as many anullments, they don’;t have as many non-sacramental marriages; but there is no reason to presume this from the statistics when the source of making a decision is simply not available. Additionally, issues of levels of catechesis enter into the equation.

Wthout going through a case-by-case basis, there is no way to tell what the issue may be with Italy. Again, a country that has so few attending Mass on a regualr basis can skew the numbers greatly.

Actually, given the level of discussion that has occured about this and other matters, it is generally a given that the US has a much higher respect for the law - including the law of marriage - as to Church matters than Europe; the European attitude is one of vocal compliance and practical ignoring the laws, while the US has more of a reputation of verbal dispute, but actual compliance with the laws. The issue has been treated elsewhere in the Catholic press.

And while we are at it, did you do a survey of divorce laws in Italy? Are they similar to the US, or different enough that it would cause further skewing of the statistics?

On the contrary to your conclusion, the high rate of anullments may actually be a sign that people, somewhat belatedly, are taking much more interest in, and much more aware of the sacramentality of marriage, by the fact that they do apply for an anullment; if they didn’t give a rip they wouldn’t bother applying.
 
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