Another 5 yr Plan Won't Cure Loss of Faith

[JimG]

“But all that aside, we’re regularly told that the causes of declining numbers of practicing Catholics across these fruited plains are mainly structural and programmatic. Better programs, better worship, better welcoming is all we need to reverse this devastation that no one would have predicted following Vatican II. Maybe it’s time to consider other possibilities.”

A Crisis of Faith, Not of Worship

This article by Fr. Mark Pilon makes me wonder if anything can stop the decline in the Church. Improving the liturgy won’t do it. How does one go about restoring a massive loss of Faith? If no one believes, then no one comes to Mass. If there is no sin, we need not worry. If everyone is saved, no need for Church.

 

[Praedicare]

Given the strange, confusing words coming out of the mouths of some people in the Church, I often fear about those same things.

What I try to remember is that we, as a family and as a Body, have been through worse. We survived Arianism, the Cathars, Protestantism, and the Enlightenment (mostly) unscathed. Losing members is no big problem; we are here, and waiting for them to inquire and listen. Perhaps we need to lose souls in order to gain them back when things have been firmed up a little inside the walls.

It ain’t about numbers, but the number of graces accepted by each soul at Mass, in prayer, and via almsgiving.

 

[LoveMercyGrace]

Your post reminded me of something Pope Benedict said…and it seems he wrote a book 2009, link and article below, regarding this very thing. might be an interesting read !

"From the crisis of today, Fr. Ratzinger says, the church “will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes … she will lose many of her social privileges. …As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members.”

popebenedictxvinews.blogspot.com/2009/06/joseph-ratzinger-on-faith-and-future.html

 

[Roger_Buck]

This article by Fr. Mark Pilon makes me wonder if anything can stop the decline in the Church. Improving the liturgy won’t do it.
​

Hmmm … I wonder why you assert that, Jim G?

Personally, after struggling with this question for nearly 20 years, I can only echo the words of someone far more profound and worthy than myself who has struggled with it for the last 50 years …

​

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Your post reminded me of something Pope Benedict said…and it seems he wrote a book 2009, link and article below, regarding this very thing. might be an interesting read !

"From the crisis of today, Fr. Ratzinger says, the church “will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes … she will lose many of her social privileges. …As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members.”

popebenedictxvinews.blogspot.com/2009/06/joseph-ratzinger-on-faith-and-future.html

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

“But all that aside, we’re regularly told that the causes of declining numbers of practicing Catholics across these fruited plains are mainly structural and programmatic. Better programs, better worship, better welcoming is all we need to reverse this devastation that no one would have predicted following Vatican II. Maybe it’s time to consider other possibilities.”

A Crisis of Faith, Not of Worship

**This article by Fr. Mark Pilon makes me wonder if anything can stop the decline in the Church. Improving the liturgy won’t do it. How does one go about restoring a massive loss of Faith? If no one believes, then no one comes to Mass. ** If there is no sin, we need not worry. If everyone is saved, no need for Church.

First, what a great article!

Second, to your last points. Coming from a Protestant background, one of the things I see holding the church back is the culture of the Catholic Church. It’s very natural, and both you and the article focus on it; it’s the almost sole focus of the faith on the liturgy.

To transform the Church, we need to transform the people. As pointed out in the article, declining numbers are a symptom of unbelief, not the problem itself. The “world” is teaching / indoctrinating church members all day, every day through the media in worldly values. It’s working too. To change, we will need to teach Catholics how to become like the early Disciples. 12 men changed the world, I don’t see any reason we couldn’t get 12 per parish to focus on changing their town!

As we read in the book of Acts we learn how the early church spread the Gospel and built the Church. Though the liturgy/worship is mentioned, there’s a whole lot more to building the faith and growing the Church. But it all starts with the belief of the believer.

Thanks for posting.

 

[may_they_be_one]

What grew the Church so rapidly for the first 2.5 centuries in the midst of horrible cultural darkness and paganism?

The Divine Operation (Charisms) of the Holy Spirit! Our “enlightened” and overly rational education has removed the wonder from creation, and removed the hope for miracles to be the most concrete way God communicates His heart to the human race.

Miracles, signs, and wonders are how Jesus , then Peter and Paul, and the rest of the apostles, and their disciples, attracted so many followers. Then they backed up the signs with powerful inspired preaching of the Word.

The Church has almost completely lost the knowledge of and desire for the Divine Charisms. In a culture steeped in paganism or “New Age” seeking, you get people’s attention with a sign–like a healing, or miracle, or prophecy. Then you preach the Gospel, *testify *to the works/miracles God has done, inspired by the same prophetic Spirit.

St. John (Revelation 19), “The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.”

St. Paul (1 Cor 12), "Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit…
To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. To one is given…wisdom; to another…knowledge…; to another faith…;

to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes."

 

[powerofk]

“But all that aside, we’re regularly told that the causes of declining numbers of practicing Catholics across these fruited plains are mainly structural and programmatic. Better programs, better worship, better welcoming is all we need to reverse this devastation that no one would have predicted following Vatican II. Maybe it’s time to consider other possibilities.”

A Crisis of Faith, Not of Worship

This article by Fr. Mark Pilon makes me wonder if anything can stop the decline in the Church. Improving the liturgy won’t do it. How does one go about restoring a massive loss of Faith? If no one believes, then no one comes to Mass. If there is no sin, we need not worry. If everyone is saved, no need for Church.

Vatican II often gets a bad reputation. But when evaluating things, Vatican II pretty much did nothing more than re-enunciate the faith. We need to look at when Vatican II came out. Our culture underwent a massive shift during the 1960s and early 1970s. Part of this was due to easy access to the “Pill”, which encouraged promiscuity. The second part was due to our political leaders, primarily LBJ and Nixon, so betraying the public trust that people started not trusting anyone in authority. So we went quickly from a country that embraced Christianity (if not Catholicism) to a country whose overall culture rejected Christianity, even though most people remained nominally Christian. Europe, of course, started their rejection of Christianity in general and specifically Catholicism much earlier, pretty much starting with the French Revolution.

 

[fred_conty]

This is just my own tiny opinion, but if I had one bullet left to fix the problem, the emphasis would be on … increasing the number and quality of priests.

In our own diocese we are down to 1/3 number of priests we had back in the '60s. Churches are closing or are being combined. The number of spiritual issues with people are growing and we don’t have the good priests/sisters to meet them.

The bishops should be applauding and encouraging their priests, over and over … number 1 priority. They should concentrate all the heavy artillery on vocations, not just to the priesthood but the sisters as well. We need leadership and spiritual access which they bring to us.

Vocations! Vocations! Vocations!

Jesus told us we need to pray that the Father send us people to harvest the ripe fields.

 

[JimG]

Hmmm … I wonder why you assert that, Jim G?

Personally, after struggling with this question for nearly 20 years, I can only echo the words of someone far more profound and worthy than myself who has struggled with it for the last 50 years …

Thanks for that great quote from Cardinal Ratzinger: “The ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”

That brought to mind another aphorism: “Lex orandi, lex credendi.” The law of worship is the law of belief. We worship as we believe. Fr. Pilon’s article presumes that lack of belief leads to lack of worship, and thereby falling numbers of worshipers. But I suppose that it could also turn into a vicious circle. If we worship as if we do not believe, that in itself leads to more loss of faith, which is manifested in lukewarm worship or no worship.
.
Many families have experienced this great loss of faith in their own members. It has been experienced in the clergy, in theologians, in academia, in public discourse.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

This is just my own tiny opinion, but if I had one bullet left to fix the problem, the emphasis would be on … increasing the number and quality of priests.

In our own diocese we are down to 1/3 number of priests we had back in the '60s. Churches are closing or are being combined. The number of spiritual issues with people are growing and we don’t have the good priests/sisters to meet them.

The bishops should be applauding and encouraging their priests, over and over … number 1 priority. They should concentrate all the heavy artillery on vocations, not just to the priesthood but the sisters as well. We need leadership and spiritual access which they bring to us.

Vocations! Vocations! Vocations!

Jesus told us we need to pray that the Father send us people to harvest the ripe fields.

Why do you think there are fewer Priests?

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Thanks for that great quote from Cardinal Ratzinger: “The ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”

That brought to mind another aphorism: “Lex orandi, lex credendi.” The law of worship is the law of belief. We worship as we believe. Fr. Pilon’s article presumes that lack of belief leads to lack of worship, and thereby falling numbers of worshipers. But I suppose that it could also turn into a vicious circle. If we worship as if we do not believe, that in itself leads to more loss of faith, which is manifested in lukewarm worship or no worship.
.
Many families have experienced this great loss of faith in their own members. It has been experienced in the clergy, in theologians, in academia, in public discourse.

This actually points to a comment I removed from my earlier post. From what I can tell in reading this forum and the Catholics / former Catholics I know, I think many Mass attendees attend out of obligation rather than a desire to enter into the presence of their creator.

Look at how many people leave mass after receiving the Eucharist; there to “check the box” of Sunday obligation.

Look at how many parents and Catechists post about youth who don’t have a faith but get confirmed due to social or familial expectation.

Now compare that to the early Christian witness. The modern Church has lost the acknowledgment of the power, and the corresponding kingdom responsibility, which our baptism has provided.

I believe when we get that back it will begin changing the Church.

 

[commenter]

Why do you think there are fewer Priests?

• The constant emphasis on the Mass as a gathering of the community, and deemphasis on sacrificial nature and supernatural character of it. We have lost our whole sense of what a “priest” is.
• The loss of a sense of sin. Thus, the collapse of Confession. Thus, no real need for a confessor. Even when there are arrangements for penance services, some parishes and priests make it sound like, "if you really** feel** the need for confession - psychologically down, for some reason - we will meet that need, so you can feel better. The objective reality of sin isn’t mentioned, just the subjective. But why be a priest if I can do that same comforting, as a social worker?
• The extreme horizontalism in Western Society. Everybody has to be interchangeable with everyone else. There is hostility against any kind of authority or distinction of roles. The whole Women Ordination movement is really to eliminate the priesthood, itself. (No one should be “laity”. That is condescending.)
• If priests are defined mainly as community builders, social facilitators, well I can do that too with a lot less training and inconvenience. So why be a priest.
• The pressure towards everyone must maximize pleasure and freedom.

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

I wonder how St. John Vianney or St. Padre Pio would respond to our Church’s declining numbers? What would these holy men do during these turbulent times?

 

[commenter]

I wonder how St. John Vianney or St. Padre Pio would respond to our Church’s declining numbers? What would these holy men do during these turbulent times?

They would do the same thing they did in their own times, whether turbulent or non turbulent. St John and St Pio served during times of anti clericalism. Things weren’t all cupcakes and flowers.

There is a good essay by C. S. Lewis, “Learning in War-Time”. He describes the misleading attitude that there are times when things are more “urgent”. This was written in England during WWII! The reality is that all times are urgent. There are no down times for Christians. Each of us needs to be constantly learning the Faith, constantly focusing on our ongoing conversion.

Our modern era is described as “tyranny of the urgent”. I see Christians liberal and conservative glued to the media, jumping this way and that, while daily Mass has only 8 people. We have to address the battle or turbulance going on within me, and within you, first. Then we can evangelize, and respond to threats from the secular society.

That is my take from what I have read about those 2 saints.

 

[Della]

I see no problem with the Liturgy of the Mass. The ancient prayers, responses, Psalms, etc. are all of the Holy Spirit and are animated by him. It’s our response to them that matter.

Our whole world is being secularized. Faith–anyone’s faith is under constant attack and denigration by the “elites” of every nation be they democracies or socialist. We are in the ongoing stage of the “dry wood” Jesus prophesied on his way to the cross when he lamented: “If they do these things in the green wood, what will they do in the case of the dry?”

God knew that there would come a time of general apostasy in the world. At one time nearly every culture bowed down to gods of one sort or another. Even if many of these gods were evil in that they were substitutes for the true God, still people acknowledged that there was something higher to themselves to whom they needed to pay homage. That’s no longer the case for many. It’s why the Muslim world feels so threatened and what has brought out the worst kind of aggression in some of their adherents. They can see the writing on the wall, and know that their culture and beliefs are next on the list to be eliminated.

This isn’t about falling numbers in one country–it’s a world-wide phenomena. As I see it the persecutions will only get worse and more people will opt-out of believing and attending church, synagogue, mosques, temples etc. under pressure to conform to secular tyranny. Secularism is the beast with the multiple heads and horns, IMHO. And it’s gaining strength and when it’s gained enough it will drive the Catholic faith into near extinction–for the Church will undergo the same Passion her Lord did before she will be resurrected as he was.

 

[Cherubin7th]

I am asking this myself for years. But what I see is that we are often complaining, but don’t do much about it. Or if we do something it seems to be worthless.
I believe the answers are by the catholics before us who have actually been successful is transforming the world toward Jesus.
Today is very similar to ancient times and in fact everything we see today I saw in ancient document. Therefore I think we should study the fathers in the ancient times. Not only the bible, because the bible does’t give enough informations, but all Christian documents at this time. We should cooperate to collect all necessary informations and to find ways how to apply this today. I also think that if we work together we can win against atheism and all other heretic stuff, because we have the better arguments, the better logic, the superior philosophy(as Justin Martyr said it) and much more. However, they(the atheists) are much better at working together. They actually working together and using every knowledge to spread there views. Also the economy tries to get more customers by manipulating people(there are many research papers out there on how to make people consume stuff they don’t really want).
Abortion, gay marriage, transgender, prostitution… earn companies billion of dollars. And we complain on forums and attack each other, but don’t do anything to improve the situation!

Right now we catholics should mainly focus on our self. How should we save others if we cannot follow Jesus just a little bit. We should improve our knowledge and develop us as a subculture. Searching for like minded people and cooperate!

We should work together to collect informations about everything necessary and build something like an apologetic wiki, that contains all arguments!
Also we should study and verify ways how to improve as a person, to sin less and love and fight more.
We should develop futuristic visions on how a catholic society would look like and how it would liberate people from the oppression of sin and greed and manipulation or copyrights, or so. Of course this needs to be discussed. But I think a truly catholic country has much more to offer that a ban on abortion and gay marriage. I think a truly Christian country would be very attractive even to atheists and Muslims, because it would be a much better place in every aspect of live. And we all should become fluent in Latin, its a shame that we cannot speak our language.

 

[goout]

It seems to me the tone of the liturgy reflects the disposition of our people.

 

[fred_conty]

Why do you think there are fewer Priests?

Why?

Image has suffered in multiple ways.

Work load overwhelming because of shortage.

Communion given by laity, confessions very low priority, kills incentive.

Family life has suffered, the heart of vocations.

Prayer life has suffered. Sunday is a good example.

Catholics are becoming protestantized in several ways.

Altar boys are fewer, which puts them in proximity of priest/altar.

But I do believe all the above could be overcome if we would genuinely ask God to send more to the harvest by praying. The idea of Christ, the good shepherd, administering to his sheep, has lost strength in the past few decades. We do need more shepherds so that the sheep will be healthier and safer, and the flock can then grow as well. Otherwise the wolves will just tear us up.

 

[JimG]

We can pray for more priests and encourage vocations–but seminarians do not descend like manna from heaven: they come from good families. Families lacking in faith do not produce priestly vocations. Faith filled families do. Which is the greater vocation crisis–too few priests, or too few faithful Catholic families? The crisis in the vocation of marriage precedes the crisis in priestly vocations.

I have met a lot of local seminarians and they are good men. Mostly they come from communities and parishes where families are close knit, faith filled and strong.