Another Altar and Ambo for daily Mass?

[chnchris]

For daily Mass during Lent, our priest has set up down
by the pews, a separate altar and ambo; i’m not sure why,
but it doesn’t feel right, especially as you look up and
see the main altar and ambo just 10 feet away.
Is this permitted in the rubrics?

 

[John_Lilburne]

chnchris:

For daily Mass during Lent, our priest has set up down
by the pews, a separate altar and ambo; i’m not sure why,
but it doesn’t feel right, especially as you look up and
see the main altar and ambo just 10 feet away.
Is this permitted in the rubrics?

There seems to be a breach of 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), n. 297:

“The celebration of the Eucharist in a sacred place is to be carried out on an altar; but outside a sacred place, it may be carried out on a suitable table, always with the use of a cloth, a corporal, a cross, and candles.”

Now if the Mass is not in a church, but in a hall, then the priest could choose to set up one table instead of another. But if the Mass is in a church then it is wrong to leave the dedicated altar unused and instead use a table.

A possible motive for what the priest is doing could be 2002 GIRM 305: “During Lent it is forbidden for the altar to be decorated with flowers. Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts are exceptions.” Perhaps he has taken this principle and gone too far with it.

More about the altar can be read from the GIRM at usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter5.shtml particularly n. 296-308.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

chnchris:

For daily Mass during Lent, our priest has set up down
by the pews, a separate altar and ambo; i’m not sure why,
but it doesn’t feel right, especially as you look up and
see the main altar and ambo just 10 feet away.
Is this permitted in the rubrics?

No this is not correct.

 

[palmas85]

:bigyikes:
John Lilburne:

There seems to be a breach of 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), n. 297:

“The celebration of the Eucharist in a sacred place is to be carried out on an altar; but outside a sacred place, it may be carried out on a suitable table, always with the use of a cloth, a corporal, a cross, and candles.”

Now if the Mass is not in a church, but in a hall, then the priest could choose to set up one table instead of another. But if the Mass is in a church then it is wrong to leave the dedicated altar unused and instead use a table.

A possible motive for what the priest is doing could be 2002 GIRM 305: “During Lent it is forbidden for the altar to be decorated with flowers. Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts are exceptions.” Perhaps he has taken this principle and gone too far with it.

More about the altar can be read from the GIRM at usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter5.shtml particularly n. 296-308.

Back in the 80’s in South Texas, my good friends the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood :bigyikes: used to run most of the Masses, actually communion services, and the few times, once or twice a month that we had Priests they were basically circuit riders of the liberation theology school. Anyway, the church was very old, probbaly at least 150 years or so, and had a beautiful altar and sanctuary, complete with tabernacle and altar rails. It was not used.

Instead they would set up a folding table in the main aisle of the Church where they would have the Mass. Their rationale was that Christ didn’t use an altar so neither should we.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Back in the 80’s in South Texas, my good friends the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood :bigyikes: used to run most of the Masses, actually communion services, and the few times, once or twice a month that we had Priests they were basically circuit riders of the liberation theology school. Anyway, the church was very old, probbaly at least 150 years or so, and had a beautiful altar and sanctuary, complete with tabernacle and altar rails. It was not used.

Instead they would set up a folding table in the main aisle of the Church where they would have the Mass. Their rationale was that Christ didn’t use an altar so neither should we.
[/quote]

I presume they walked the circuit and maybe rode a mule for solemnities.

 

[muledog]

Back in the 80’s in South Texas, my good friends the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood :bigyikes: used to run most of the Masses, actually communion services, and the few times, once or twice a month that we had Priests they were basically circuit riders of the liberation theology school. Anyway, the church was very old, probbaly at least 150 years or so, and had a beautiful altar and sanctuary, complete with tabernacle and altar rails. It was not used.

Instead they would set up a folding table in the main aisle of the Church where they would have the Mass. Their rationale was that Christ didn’t use an altar so neither should we.
[/quote]

What kind of rationale is that? The altar symbolizes Christ, and has been used to celebrate the Sacred Mysteries since time immemorial.

Jesus didn’t use electric lights during the Eucharist, but I’m pretty sure your good friends, the nuns, continue to use artificial lighting during their services.

The *altar *of the New Covenant is the Lord’s Cross, from which the sacraments of the Paschal mystery flow. On the altar, which is the center of the church, the sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs. The altar is also the table of the Lord, to which the People of God are invited. In certain Eastern liturgies, the altar is also the symbol of the tomb (Christ truly died and is truly risen). (CCC, no. 1182)

 

[chnchris]

chnchris:

For daily Mass during Lent, our priest has set up down by the pews, a separate altar and ambo; i’m not sure why, but it doesn’t feel right, especially as you look up and
see the main altar and ambo just 10 feet away.
Is this permitted in the rubrics?

Seems it’s all about feeling warm, maybe we should
all cuddle up under blankets and hold hands. :>}

Here’s the reply from my priest:

Hi Chris,

I am sorry about your confusion. Perhaps I should have explained. The Altar, Ambo, and Presidential Chair are the same ones that are always used for Daily Mass. Daily Mass usually is held in the Chapel, for the 8-10 people that attend.

With an emphasis on daily mass during lent I decided to move Mass to the main sanctuary, in order to accommodate the extra people.I feared that our move to the sanctuary for the daily masses would have an “atmosphere” of isolation if I were to offer mass from the main altar and there were few faithful in attendance. I envisioned a warmer atmosphere with the smaller numbers gathered around the daily mass altar, ambo, and presidential chair.

Having said that, I guess that I was not expecting so many at Friday’s Mass. My thinking was based on my estimate of maybe 15-20 at the Mass; if this were the case I think you will agree that my model would have been much “warmer”

I will re-evaluate my decision in a week or so, after I see if the numbers are sustained.

Thanks for your interest.

By the way, as I am sure you know, many of the old churches have many, many altars available, in addition to the main one. St. Peter’s in Rome, where I have had the privilege of offering many Masses, probably has more than 75 altars.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

chnchris:

Seems it’s all about feeling warm, maybe we should
all cuddle up under blankets and hold hands. :>}

Here’s the reply from my priest:

Hi Chris,

I am sorry about your confusion. Perhaps I should have explained. The Altar, Ambo, and Presidential Chair are the same ones that are always used for Daily Mass. Daily Mass usually is held in the Chapel, for the 8-10 people that attend.

With an emphasis on daily mass during lent I decided to move Mass to the main sanctuary, in order to accommodate the extra people.I feared that our move to the sanctuary for the daily masses would have an “atmosphere” of isolation if I were to offer mass from the main altar and there were few faithful in attendance. I envisioned a warmer atmosphere with the smaller numbers gathered around the daily mass altar, ambo, and presidential chair.

Having said that, I guess that I was not expecting so many at Friday’s Mass. My thinking was based on my estimate of maybe 15-20 at the Mass; if this were the case I think you will agree that my model would have been much “warmer”

I will re-evaluate my decision in a week or so, after I see if the numbers are sustained.

Thanks for your interest.

By the way, as I am sure you know, many of the old churches have many, many altars available, in addition to the main one. St. Peter’s in Rome, where I have had the privilege of offering many Masses, probably has more than 75 altars.

Yes but side altars are no longer to be used to celebrate Mass a church is to have but ONE altar in use. An additional temporary altar in a side chapel or day chapel set apart from the main church is allowed. But two active altars in the same worship space is not allowed. If Mass is celebrated in the main church the main altar should be used.

 

[chnchris]

Br. Rich SFO:

But two active altars in the same worship space is not allowed. If Mass is celebrated in the main church the main altar should be used.

 Does anyone know church document or Canon Law
 regarding this?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Joe Kelley:

I presume they walked the circuit and maybe rode a mule for solemnities.

With the folding table on their backs.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

OutinChgoburbs:

With the folding table on their backs.

 

[Thursday1]

Br. Rich SFO:

Yes but side altars are no longer to be used to celebrate Mass a church is to have but ONE altar in use. An additional temporary altar in a side chapel or day chapel set apart from the main church is allowed. But two active altars in the same worship space is not allowed. If Mass is celebrated in the main church the main altar should be used.

I was recently at Westminster Cathedral for the feast of Saint Thomas Becket. They normally used the high altar for daily Mass, but on the saint’s feast day, they used the side altar dedicated to the saint (along with vestments which couldn’t have been younger than 200 years old, and had the life of the saint on them.)

The cannon law chapter on altars is reproduced below:

CHAPTER IV : ALTARS

Can. 1235 ß1 The altar or table on which the eucharistic Sacrifice is celebrated is
termed fixed if it is so constructed that it is attached to the floor and therefore cannot
be moved; it is termed movable, if it can be removed.

ß2 It is proper that in every church there should be a fixed altar. In other places
which are intended for the celebration of sacred functions, the altar may be either
fixed or movable.

Can. 1236 ß1 In accordance with the traditional practice of the Church, the table of a
fixed altar is to be of stone, indeed of a single natural stone. However, even some
other worthy and solid material may be used, if the Episcopal Conference so judges.
The support or the base can be made from any material.

ß2 A movable altar can be made of any solid material which is suitable for liturgical
use.

Can. 1237 ß1 Fixed altars are to be dedicated, movable ones either dedicated or
blessed, according to the rites prescribed in the liturgical books.

ß2 The ancient tradition of placing relics of Martyrs or of other Saints within a fixed
altar is to be retained, in accordance with the rites prescribed in the liturgical books.

Can. 1238 ß1 An altar loses its dedication or blessing in accordance with Can. 1212.

ß2 Altars, whether fixed or movable, do not lose their dedication or blessing as a
result of a church or other sacred place being made over to secular usage.

Can. 1239 ß1 An altar, whether fixed or movable, is to be reserved for divine
worship alone, to the exclusion of any secular usage.

ß2 No corpse is to be buried beneath an altar; otherwise, it is not lawful to celebrate
Mass at that altar.

There is nothing in cannon law stipulating one active altar per church.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[muledog]

Thursday1:

IThere is nothing in cannon law stipulating one active altar per church.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

In general, canon law does not deal with specific liturgical issues. For that, we must go to the individual liturgical books and their Instructions.

According to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, the following pertains to the celebration of Holy Mass on only one altar:
GIRM:

1. The celebration of the Eucharist in a sacred place is to be carried out on an altar; but outside a sacred place, it may be carried out on a suitable table, always with the use of a cloth, a corporal, a cross, and candles.

GIRM:

1. In building new churches, it is preferable to erect a single altar which in the gathering of the faithful will signify the one Christ and the one Eucharist of the Church.

Built of Living Stones, a document listing several guidelines for the proper liturgical environment (as envisioned by the USCCB), states the following:
BOLS:

At the Eucharist, the liturgical assembly celebrates the ritual sacrificial meal that recalls and makes present Christ’s life, death, and resurrection, proclaiming “the death of the Lord until he comes.” The altar is "the center of thanksgiving that the Eucharist accomplishes"and the point around which the other rites are in some manner arrayed. Since the Church teaches that “the altar is Christ,” its composition should reflect the nobility, beauty, strength, and simplicity of the One it represents. In new churches there is to be only one altar so that it "signifies to the assembly of the faithful one Christ and the one Eucharist of the Church (para. 56)

 

[palmas85]

muledog:

What kind of rationale is that? The altar symbolizes Christ, and has been used to celebrate the Sacred Mysteries since time immemorial.

Jesus didn’t use electric lights during the Eucharist, but I’m pretty sure your good friends, the nuns, continue to use artificial lighting during their services.

If you never experienced this particular group of sisters? or whatever they really happened to be, you probably would not believe just how radical and far out they really were.

One example should suffice. We had several Border Patrol Agents and numerous Military personnel in the congregation. The sisters , would often commune each other and refuse communion to anyone they knew to be in any way associated with the US Government including their families, because of the “Crimes” that were being committed by the government and by extension, those of us associated with the the Government in any capacity. When they felt really froggy they wouldn’t even let us in the church. Great times in South Tejas.

 

[muledog]

palmas85:

If you never experienced this particular group of sisters? or whatever they really happened to be, you probably would not believe just how radical and far out they really were.

One example should suffice. We had several Border Patrol Agents and numerous Military personnel in the congregation. The sisters , would often commune each other and refuse communion to anyone they knew to be in any way associated with the US Government including their families, because of the “Crimes” that were being committed by the government and by extension, those of us associated with the the Government in any capacity. When they felt really froggy they wouldn’t even let us in the church. Great times in South Tejas.

Wow! My prayers go out to you.

And I thought I had it rought here in our diocese

 

[chnchris]

chnchris:

Seems it’s all about feeling warm, maybe we should all cuddle up under blankets and hold hands. :>}

Went to daily Mass Friday, everything back to normal -
main altar, ambo, presider's chair used. Guess it can
work to question. :>}

 

[marytk]

When I was on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and Rome our group had Mass at one of the side altars in St Peter’s.

 

[chnchris]

marytk:

When I was on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and Rome our group had Mass at one of the side altars in St Peter’s.

What's your point?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

marytk:

When I was on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and Rome our group had Mass at one of the side altars in St Peter’s.

If I remember correctly, only the Pope and those with special permission from him are allowed to say mass at the main altar in the four major basilicas [St John Lateran, St Mary Major, St Peter, and St Paul Outside the Walls]. Thus most masses must be said on side altars at those places.