Another altarboy thread

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buffalo:
Most men will avoid a wishy washy effeminate Church. Until orthodox teaching and practices return the Church will continue to suffer vocations. Until strong male men are welcomed vocations will suffer.
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Amen.

My parish, Assumption Grotto in Detroit has 60 altar boys/men (no females). The pastor opts out, while acknowledging that girls are certainly cacable, and he can certainly opt them in, but chooses not to do that. Bottom line is that he does not need to with a corp of 60 males.

Ss Cyril & Methodius in the suburbs of Detroit also has a significant altar boy/man corp.

Both parishes are yielding their fair share of vocations. I don’t recall the exact number, but it seems to me Ss C & M has 6-8 seminarians right now, and from what I’m seeing - more potentials in the pipe line. I’m willing to bet everyone of them have served.

Vocations at Grotto are not discussed out of respect for the privacy of individuals, but I do know there are both male and females discerning and/or preparing - several. That doesn’t include those I do not know personally. I see several potentials among the teen altar boys.

But, being new at Grotto (joined in May/June 2005), I notice a huge difference in the kids at Grotto and Ss Cyril & Meth. They are reserved and devout. Most come from very large families. Those families live very simple and value time at Church with other families.

Another factor is that, at least at Grotto, the altar boys are trained and managed by the Pastor himself, not a lay person, and certainly not a female. The other priests help out. They have “altar boy retreats”, often overnighters 1-2 times yearly and these are silent retreats. It is not uncommon to see several boys headed to confessionals - some weekly in the half hour before Mass. It is also not uncommon to see them using the prayer books the pastor made of time-tested devotions, which are often poo-pooed among the progressives.

Why is this important? The priests are in close contact, setting an example, teaching them, coaching them in the sacristy and in the confessional, they are helping to form these fine young people into young men, most of whom will be better husbands and parents as a result, and some of whom will be dedicated priests.

The altar boy programs in most parishes are run by lay people, and more often than not, females. Of course there are no vocations coming from some of them. I would bet that far more vocations are yielded out of altar boy programs that have no females and have heavy involvement by priests where they can influence the young men and serve as role models.

All of the kids know that Mass is very serious. When one young lad giggled half way through Mass (almost unheard of at Grotto), it did not escape the pastor’s notice. He got a one month suspension. This is no light matter when I would estimate that over 50-60% of the boys are engaged in this thing, which is their baby. It is popular for them to be involved.

There is more to add to this with some statistics I will post, to drive home my final point about why I believe some altar boy programs yield vocations, while others do not. Next post.
 
Since girl altar boys were approved by the Holy See in order to regularize a widespread abuse, the use of females serving at the altar will eventually be supressed. Of course, it will have to wait for a more opportune moment in Church history. There is little point in handing down dictates that will be widely ignored by recalcitrant, prideful bishops and priests.

God sees all but waits. :cool:
 
I agree that serving at the altar is a nice long opportunity for a boy to contemplate the possibility of a priestly vocation. I STILL think boys would get interested again if their fathers served with them, in teams, and even if it didn’t lead to a huge upswing in vocations, think of the positive effect it could have on a boy, seeing the strongest man he knows, on his knees, bowing humbly, serving the priest, serving Our Lord in adoration, etc. I don’t think it’s a scandal for a girl to serve (except if they’re going to do so, they should be required to wear a standard shoe and do something sensible with their hair), but I do tend to think most boys won’t if girls do.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I agree that serving at the altar is a nice long opportunity for a boy to contemplate the possibility of a priestly vocation. I STILL think boys would get interested again if their fathers served with them, in teams, and even if it didn’t lead to a huge upswing in vocations, think of the positive effect it could have on a boy, seeing the strongest man he knows, on his knees, bowing humbly, serving the priest, serving Our Lord in adoration, etc. I don’t think it’s a scandal for a girl to serve (except if they’re going to do so, they should be required to wear a standard shoe and do something sensible with their hair), but I do tend to think most boys won’t if girls do.
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Kirk, please describe the un-sensible hair you’ve witnessed on the young ladies serving at the altar. I can just imagine.

You see the tangents you drag me into? :tsktsk:
 
I raise the issue of traditional service (all male, run by priests or heavily influenced by priests), and where priests encourage heavy use of the sacraments (confession and mass, even weekly) and encourage devotions found in many old prayer books. It is often not uncommon to see children serving at weeday Masses at Grotto and Ss C & M. In fact, at the 6:00 AM Ss C& M Mass I went to this AM, there were about 6 kids, two adults and one seminarian assisting at the altar/lector. It is rare I don’t see kids involved during the week.

These kinds of things (devotions, frequent confession, etc.) are often associated with the orthodox faction of the Church. It is the kind of thing that Michael S. Rose details in “Goodbye! Goodmen” and there are plenty of interviews as to the persecution young orthdox-minded men endured at the seminary. They were too “rigid” because they wanted to pray the Rosary or other devotions. Orthodox dioceses are yielding vocations, while progressive dioceses are not. Michael Rose proves this out with some interesting statistics and I think it is not only visible in vocations, but I believe there is a parallel with how many boys are willing to serve at the altar and to what age. Lets look at some of those stats he provides (browser won’t let me paste it in, so see this link for full context). Here’s the gist of it at the time the book was being written. These numbers I believe were between 1991 and 1998. From the above link:

Providing statistics to support his research, he states that Dioceses such as Wichita, Lincoln, Arlington, Fargo and Peoria have consistently been ordaining as many or more men each year than liberal dioceses 5 to 10 times their size (you would have to read the book as to how “liberal” and orthodox are defined). He goes into detail.

Examples by numbers 1991-1998:

Orthodox Peoria, with a Catholic population of only 232,000 there were 72 ordained (that is an avg of 9 per year)! In contrast to progressive Milwaukee which yielded two priests in 1998 (and the way I understand it, none between 1991-1997, but I would need to verify). Milwaukee’s population is 696,000.

Omaha (It says 7 men from 1991-1998 in the link, but I believe the book says 7* annually* from 1991-1998, which makes more sense when he contrasts it to the progressive diocese of Madison, which ordained only 4 men total from 1991-1998). My book is on loan so I can’t check it.

Now, lets throw my own archdiocese of Detroit in the pot, as he does in his book. Out of a Catholic population of 1,500,000, we yielded an average of 8 priests annually. He points out that Detroit is 7x the size of Peoria.

What does all of this have to do with this thread?

Some of you see no added vocations coming from boys serving at the altar, some of you do. Some of you are in very traditional and orthodox parishes like I am. Some of you are in more contemporary parishes, most of which have lay people running the program, mostly women, and have female altar servers. Traditional orthodox parishes do not have female involvment.

In the end, it would be interesting to see a study of how many kids serve at the altar in a variety parishes, their gender percentages, and to what age they serve, and whether priests or lay people (and gender) run the programs. Only a statistical study can prove or disprove the notion that many of us have that:

Vocations are likely to be higher among those serving at traditional orthodox parishes where the culture supports devotion, heavy use of the sacraments, rich and abundant family life (evidence of NFP and little or no ABC), and priests run the programs, not female laity.

Parents who have one child, a male, are more likely to discourage, even indirectly, their son’s call to the priesthood than parents who have lots of children. Orthodox parishes are loaded with familes of 8, 10 and there’s one in mine with 17 or 18. They may not have X-box, but they are very happy, well fed, well clothed.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Kirk, please describe the un-sensible hair you’ve witnessed on the young ladies serving at the altar. I can just imagine.

You see the tangents you drag me into? :tsktsk:
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Down in their face, so they have to push it back, fidget with it, etc.

Really, it’s the shoes that are such a distraction. Clicky heels on travertine floors. You’d think that would be the worst, but no, acutally it was watching a little girl server “skate” around the altar in a pair of embroidered oriental slipper-like shoes (pink), because they couldn’t get any purchase on the marble. You wonder what their parents are thinking before they leave the house for Mass.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I raise the issue of traditional service (all male, run by priests or heavily influenced by priests.
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Excellent idea, but I should think in this evil age, a priest should be helped in this by at least 2 married couples in each parish, to avoid any chance at all of a false accusation. “Wise as snakes, gentle as doves.”
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Down in their face, so they have to push it back, fidget with it, etc.

Really, it’s the shoes that are such a distraction. Clicky heels on travertine floors. You’d think that would be the worst, but no, acutally it was watching a little girl server “skate” around the altar in a pair of embroidered oriental slipper-like shoes (pink), because they couldn’t get an purchase on the marble. You wonder what their parents are thinking before they leave the house for Mass.
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Flip-flops.

On female servers.

Flop, flop, flop.

It pushed Father over the edge. He didn’t notice it until it was too late. Said server “disappeared”.

I have no problem with girl servers, and don’t see it as the gateway or farm league to the priesthood, but really- are parents thinking at all when they send their kids to Mass to serve in flip-flops (girls), water shoes (boys), tank suits (both), large earrings (girls)?:bigyikes:
 
Dr. Bombay:
Since girl altar boys were approved by the Holy See in order to regularize a widespread abuse, the use of females serving at the altar will eventually be supressed. Of course, it will have to wait for a more opportune moment in Church history. There is little point in handing down dictates that will be widely ignored by recalcitrant, prideful bishops and priests.

God sees all but waits. :cool:
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I think some of the language in Redemptionis Sacramentum already hints at this upcoming supression…
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Excellent idea, but I should think in this evil age, a priest should be helped in this by at least 2 married couples in each parish, to avoid any chance at all of a false accusation. “Wise as snakes, gentle as doves.”
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I can understand your concern. There have been false accusations. Actually, the kids typically show up together and the sacristy is often a very crowded place. The parents on the grounds - somwhere. I’m sure the priests have thought about being falsely accused, but then again, there are a lot of other kids witnessing. Thus I see it as a very remote risk.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
In the end, it would be interesting to see a study of how many kids serve at the altar in a variety parishes, their gender percentages, and to what age they serve, and whether priests or lay people (and gender) run the programs. Only a statistical study can prove or disprove the notion that many of us have that:

Vocations are likely to be higher among those serving at traditional orthodox parishes where the culture supports devotion, heavy use of the sacraments, rich and abundant family life (evidence of NFP and little or no ABC), and priests run the programs, not female laity.

Parents who have one child, a male, are more likely to discourage, even indirectly, their son’s call to the priesthood than parents who have lots of children. Orthodox parishes are loaded with familes of 8, 10 and there’s one in mine with 17 or 18. They may not have X-box, but they are very happy, well fed, well clothed.
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There will likely never be such a statistical study done because it would counter the progressivist propoganda that girl altar boys do not discourage priestly vocations.

Some people would rather live in a fantasy world where anecdotal feel-goodism trumps hard facts.

Besides, if girl altar boys really do discourage priestly vocations, that just strengthens the argument that the Church “must” ordain girl priests. So they’re killing two stones with one bird.
 
Dr. Bombay:
There will likely never be such a statistical study done because it would counter the progressivist propoganda that girl altar boys do not discourage priestly vocations.

Some people would rather live in a fantasy world where anecdotal feel-goodism trumps hard facts.

Besides, if girl altar boys really do discourage priestly vocations, that just strengthens the argument that the Church “must” ordain girl priests. So they’re killing two stones with one bird.
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:rotfl:

If I didn’t believe what you were saying myself I would have put up 3 laughing smilies. That’s the crux of it for many things. Weakland was the perfect example, as is Mahoney. While they cry “shortage”, Bishops Bruskewicz and others in orthodox dioceses are saying, “What’s the problem”.

I’m seeing a connection between formation programs in seminaries run by nuns who want to be priests, and females running altar boy programs that include girl altar boys.

This is not a slap in the face to the innocent girls who get involved out of the goodness of their heart and serve to the best of their ability (inexperienced, uninformed, or simply lousy teachers have more to do with hair flipping and flip flops). Rather, I am looking at the bigger picture.

After Archbishop Chaput dismantled his seminary and got rid of the staff, then reopened it under a new name with orthodox priests running the formation programs, I believe I read vocations shot up.

If the girls stepped aside, and if the priests made it their responsibility to work with the boys, I believe we would see a surge of young males serving and that contact would place those being called in a better position to hear the call than they could in the noisy world, where technology and temptations serve as the biggest distractions.
 
There is probably something to the notion that altar service encourages some boys to the priesthood, but also other callings such as reader/lector or EHMC.

A lot of women who are serving today in liturgical function also started off with altar service.
 
Even though it most certainly negatively impacts priestly vocations, it never ceases to amaze how many people are so set on defending the use of altar girls. It’s remarkable how many people still place sexism/feminism ahead of vocations to the priesthood.

Go to an altar server orientation meeting sometime. In my parish it typically comprised of wannabe-priestesses (who likely salivate at the thought of vesting/being in the sanctuary themselves) pushing their daughters to be altar girls. The girls for the most part seem to be disinterested and/or don’t have a clue about what’s going on…
 
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Kielbasi:
There is probably something to the notion that altar service encourages some boys to the priesthood, but also other callings such as reader/lector or EHMC.

A lot of women who are serving today in liturgical function also started off with altar service.
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I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but people are not called to be readers or EMHCs (or EMEs or LEMs or whatever other cutsie acronym they’ve attached to lay people who assume priestly functions). People volunteer for these things.
 
I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but people are not called to be readers or EMHCs (or EMEs or LEMs or whatever other cutsie acronym they’ve attached to lay people who assume priestly functions). People volunteer for these things.
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People do volunteer, but I think that God has something to do with influencing the people to step forward.

It isn’t the same as a calling to the priesthood, granted, but its a type of calling if someone responds to a Divine hint that they might want to volunteer.
 
Can someone please tell me what is wrong with this picture?

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If you said nothing, you are absolutely right!
 
Hey Dr. Bombay,

Here’s a link for ya. Remember how ya told me if I put a girl in a cassock, you’d beat me with a paten? This gives me all the inspiration in the world. I especially like how she knows what the Gospel is!

S
 
What’s wrong with this picture?

Ephiphany 2006 - Assumption Grotto, Detroit, MI
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