Another Ask-A-Pagan thread

[JHow]

This. Every family has the basketcase relations that no one wants to talk about, and Germanic paganism is no different. The racism angle is complete non-historical. I think it’s ridiculous and insulting to our ancestors, which is why I participate in a prison outreach program to try and keep people out of the hands of the Aryan Brotherhood and other such abominations.

Hello Gulvieg. Skadi should have called his thread “Ask the Other Pagan”, but now we have the both of you involved!

Why do the racists glom on to the Norse paganism so much do you think? Is it a matter if aesthetics? Also, what’s up with Heavy Metal music? My sense is that there is some resentment there towards Christianity, but metal paganism seems incoherent. Maybe I expect too much from musicians? Maybe metal is not really related to Asatru?

 

[Alizarin]

Hello Gulvieg. Skadi should have called his thread “Ask the Other Pagan”, but now we have the both of you involved!

Why do the racists glom on to the Norse paganism so much do you think? Is it a matter if aesthetics? Also, what’s up with Heavy Metal music? My sense is that there is some resentment there towards Christianity, but metal paganism seems incoherent. Maybe I expect too much from musicians? Maybe metal is not really related to Asatru?

You should read Lords of Chaos for more info on the pagan/black metal connection, and the racism that ended up intertwined with it. It was fascinating IMHO. It’s an account of the Black Metal scene in Scandinavia, and the church burnings (multiple) and murder (2 at least) that went along with it. Scary stuff, but interesting from an anthropological point of view. The author claimed a lot of it was a reaction to the bland popular piety and rote Christianity found in modern Scandinavia.

 

[Alizarin]

Talk is cheap isn’t it?

It would sure help to see events that might lead to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Witnesses recounting their experience would help since I’m not that old and don’t live over there.

With regard to your example, since ‘few’ have heard about it, should we trust your writing accuracy about something that may or may not have happened in 1247, and not trust people who wrote about their life experience at a different point in time?

FFG, I don’t think you’re gonna debate him into converting.

He seems to know the basics of the faith. What he does with them is between him and his conscience, and we should probably respect his free will regardless of which decision he makes or doesn’t make.

 

[JHow]

You should read Lords of Chaos…

Ill look for it. Thx.

 

[Alizarin]

Ill look for it. Thx.

After I read the book, I had to go and find the actual music to see what it was like. Yeah, I’ve got lots of metal in my music collection to this day, but nothing quite like that, so I was curious. Frightening stuff it was… The fact that so many of them took a low-fi approach made it even creepier, more raw. Reminded me of old, old blues like Robert Johnson. Barebones recording and no hope to be found.

In all honesty, I think the frightening emptiness of that particular brand of metal was one of the many things that signaled to my inner self that I might just prefer being with God instead, if that makes any sense.

 

[Gullveig]

Hello Gulvieg. Skadi should have called his thread “Ask the Other Pagan”, but now we have the both of you involved!

Why do the racists glom on to the Norse paganism so much do you think? Is it a matter if aesthetics? Also, what’s up with Heavy Metal music? My sense is that there is some resentment there towards Christianity, but metal paganism seems incoherent. Maybe I expect too much from musicians? Maybe metal is not really related to Asatru?

Skadi’s doing a really good job, I just thought I’d add my two cents to his excellent thread from a slightly varied section of the Germanic Pagan umbrella. I always think it’s one of those situations where if you ask two pagans a question, you’ll get four or five answers.

My personal theory on the racism thing is that it’s due to two coinciding accidents of history.

First, the German Mysticism Revival in the late 19th and early 20th centuries got tangled up in post WWI German nationalism. This was when archaeology as a real science and not just simple antiquarianism was just getting started, a lot of the really important Scandinavian and German finds hadn’t been made yet, and the ones that had been were interpreted in some pretty crazy ways. Naturally, the confluence of bad science, 19th century spiritualism, and the eugenics movement, and of course Hitler, produced some pretty warped ideas about Germanic paganism. After WWII, it was mostly the staunch reconstructionists, who Hitler hated, that remained. For some reason, a lot of the really egregious racists from that period wound up in Australia.

Second, when the second Germanic/Norse heathen revival got started in the 1960’s, with a completely different ideological framework from the previous attempt, it happened to be around the same time that the civil rights movement was really gaining ground in the United States. I think what happened was that a lot of the organizations like the Klan were starting to become unfashionable and seen as provincial, and because of what happened under Hitler, the racists found the new heathen groups that were getting started very attractive as an alternative excuse. Honestly, I would consider most racist Germanic heathens to be a political group more than a religious group, they just use the religion as a recruiting tool.

Heavy Metal music is sort of the blessing and bane of modern heathens at the same time. A lot of metal bands find Norse mythology to be very interesting subject matter, and in Scandinavian countries it was a reaction against Christianity in the way that “Satanic” metal is a reaction against Christianity in the UK and the US. The religion, even the modern reconstruction, existed before and separate from the metal bands did, though. I think a lot of heathens disapprove of the way that the black metal bands have co-opted the lore and glorified aspects of the religion that are not really representative of the whole. However, some bands are real practitioners of the religion, especially when you get into the more folk metal type stuff. In a way, it’s great because we have a lot of lore-friendly music to listen to (I especially like Korpiklaani and Tyr that use traditional rhythms and instruments), but it’s also bad because people think real heathenism = black metal band version heathenism.

As far as the push back against Christianity, you have to understand that a lot of Scandinavia was not peacefully converted and pagans were persecuted in some pretty terrible ways. I don’t blame the Church personally, I’m pretty sure they didn’t have control over a lot of what happened. It was more of politicking by bad kings gone horribly wrong. Basically, the king would convert to the get the support of political allies and then forcibly convert the rest of the population. Iceland managed to avoid a bloody conflict over it, because they didn’t have a king to force convert anyone and were able to strike an agreement with the Church not to ban certain pagan practices (which the Church banned anyway later on). That and the fact that a lot of heathens, somewhat justly, blame Christians for tainting the lore and destroying the culture Honestly, I think that the most ardent anti-Christian heathens are usually just people who have been badly mistreated by Christians and have directed their anger about it in an irrational way.

 

[Skadi]

Hello Gulvieg. Skadi should have called his thread “Ask the Other Pagan”, but now we have the both of you involved!

Why do the racists glom on to the Norse paganism so much do you think? Is it a matter if aesthetics? Also, what’s up with Heavy Metal music? My sense is that there is some resentment there towards Christianity, but metal paganism seems incoherent. Maybe I expect too much from musicians? Maybe metal is not really related to Asatru?

I gota say, I love the band Tyr, but their music is… markedly anti-christian. I personally have no problem with Christianity, but I dont think theres a pagan out there who dosn’t have negative feelings of some sort about the Christianization of Europe. The only time i ever get angered over it though is when people reject the historically documented facts about HOW it happened. The rosy picture of missionarys arriving from Rome and the common people flocking to Jesus is just flat out false. The conversions was, for the most part, from the top down with government support. The story of Haakon Sigurdsson’s forced conversion by Harald Bluetooth is a good example.

I think the Pagan-Heavy Metal connection comes from nationalism. The old religion distinguishes the Germanic people from the other peoples of Europe, and they were rather violent folks which is why I guess that sort of manifests itself as Thrash Metal.

 

[Skadi]

No, that’s not what I was asking.

I asked if you were familiar with what the eyewitnesses wrote about Jesus’ claims. Are you aware of what they said He said?

Well, I suppose that Pharaoh had a lot to gain by making himself sound truly divine because he was still around to benefit from the adulation. But Jesus ascended into heaven and had nothing to gain from exaggerated stories, and since none of Jesus’ early followers had any real positions of power, what did they benefit from making the whole thing up?

Yes, ive read most of the bible at various times, i went to a Catholic High School so it was assigned. And people who are very dedicated to a cause (like early christians) can often do mental gymnastics to justify warping events or even falsification.

 

[Skadi]

So, is there a personal god or manifestation of the One that you worship? If so, what can you tell us about him/her/it?

I worship the whole pantheon, all the Aesir and Vanir. However I have a particular dedication to Ullr and (surprise surprise) Skadi.

 

[Skadi]

Talk is cheap isn’t it?

It would sure help to see events that might lead to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Witnesses recounting their experience would help since I’m not that old and don’t live over there.

With regard to your example, since ‘few’ have heard about it, should we trust your writing accuracy about something that may or may not have happened in 1247, and not trust people who wrote about their life experience at a different point in time?

Well thats the crux of history. If I told you I just ate dinner its up to you if you believe me. There are a whole mess of factors in your head that will determine that, including my reliability, how logical the story seams, and if i may have ulterior motives to say that. If you read a second hand account about me eating dinner there would be even more questions to ask. So you have to figure out if you believe the account of events (in this case my eating dinner) is reliable. Ive simply come to the conclusion that the writings about Jesus dont seam reliable enough to place religious weight on them.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, ive read most of the bible at various times, i went to a Catholic High School so it was assigned. And people who are very dedicated to a cause (like early christians) can often do mental gymnastics to justify warping events or even falsification.

Yes, they can.

Then what is your opinion?

Did the early followers of Jesus simply make up the idea that He claimed to be God?

Or did they simply report with accuracy the fact that He did make such a claim?

(And please note that I’m not asserting that either Jesus or his disciples were correct…I’m simply trying to get at what either Jesus or his followers claimed.)

I’m trying to get at whether you think Jesus personally claimed to be God or whether this was a fabrication by zealous disciples. Thanks.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I worship the whole pantheon, all the Aesir and Vanir. However I have a particular dedication to Ullr and (surprise surprise) Skadi.

I know nothing of them, but I’m intrigued.

How did you come to be attracted to these two gods in particular?

Have they reached out to you by means of some form of communication or shown some interest in you that would cause you to reciprocate?

 

[Skadi]

Yes, they can.

Then what is your opinion?

Did the early followers of Jesus simply make up the idea that He claimed to be God?

Or did they simply report with accuracy the fact that He did make such a claim?

(And please note that I’m not asserting that either Jesus or his disciples were correct…I’m simply trying to get at what either Jesus or his followers claimed.)

I’m trying to get at whether you think Jesus personally claimed to be God or whether this was a fabrication by zealous disciples. Thanks.

I honestly dont know. My personal opinion is he probably did but im simply trying to point out the possibility that things were added to or removed from the Jesus story after his death. What it takes is FAITH, Christians have faith in these writings, that they are accurate and depict a true picture of the events of the life of Jesus. More power to the Christians, i hope your faith brings you peace and happiness. I however, don’t have faith that these writings are inerrant or divinely inspired.

So yes, I think he probably did, I’m just alluding to the amount of uncertainty that is present with any ancient writings. I’m a History major and of course that requires me to put my faith in age old historical documents. But when you mave something from simply a historical text to a religious one, well that raises the bar significantly, because your talking about something more than just “King such and such drove the whositwhatsits before him”, your talking about things beyond the physical.

 

[antonthomas]

I have read the answers to my questions. It shows it is really a pagan religion that rooted in myths of gods which are false gods. I could not understand a person like you a Catholic fallen away from the Catholic faith to be deceived by these false gods. You have been deceived to ‘believe’ and have cut yourself from the true faith and from the One God the Triune God and from the source of life. You may think you are safe but you are not. You have chosen by your free will the path to eternal condemnation in this life and in the next life.
here more questions.

1. what is your god say but life after death? 2. Do you have a bible? 3. how do you pray? 4. Do you have a building to pray in? 5. Who lead the prayer? 6. Do you have a role in the prayer? 7. Do you evangelize? 8. Do you cast out demons? 9. can you ask your gods who created them as you said they came into being after the being bang? 10. Are you happy with these gods? 11. Do you know that they are false gods? 12. Do you love these false gods?

 

[Skadi]

I know nothing of them, but I’m intrigued.

How did you come to be attracted to these two gods in particular?

Have they reached out to you by means of some form of communication or shown some interest in you that would cause you to reciprocate?

Well in terms of what they represent they are actually almost identical.

Ullr is the son of Thors wife, Sif, and the God of Archery, Skiing, the Hunt, Winter, and Victory. He is the finest marksmen and skier amon the gods, noted for his good looks, and considered a good god to call on before a duel or sporting contest. He is mentioned in the Icelandic sagas but he seam’s to have lost some of his relevance over the years, being far more important to the Germans of classical antiquity than he was to the later Vikings or Anglo-Saxons. Interestingly, apart from Odin and Thor he may be the most widely know Germanic diety because of his status world wide as a patron of Skiers. In fact just this year Breckenridge, Colorado held its 50’th annual Ullrfest, where yearly skiers in town burn hundreds of old skis in a giant bonfire to bring good snow for the coming year.

Skadi somewhat replaced Ullr in later centuries, also being a goddess of Hunting, Skiing, and the mountains. The name Scandinavia may actually mean “Skadi’s Island”. In the Lokasenna she tells Loki he will receive poor council from her sacred groves, indicated she was probably actively worshiped in Scandinavia as an important deity. She is not actually a goddess by birth, but a giantess who married into the Aesir as part of a settlement after the Gods killed her father.

Im particularly fond of these two because im a avid bow hunter, to the point where its a religious experience. I also have been snowboarding sense i was about 9, and just generally prefer the winter. I dont necessarily like to ascribe events to divine intervention, but ive had a few instances where i seriously felt presence there. And I have had a very serious religious experience with the Goddess Freyja.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I honestly dont know. My personal opinion is he probably did but im simply trying to point out the possibility that things were added to or removed from the Jesus story after his death. What it takes is FAITH, Christians have faith in these writings, that they are accurate and depict a true picture of the events of the life of Jesus. More power to the Christians, i hope your faith brings you peace and happiness. I however, don’t have faith that these writings are inerrant or divinely inspired.

So yes, I think he probably did, I’m just alluding to the amount of uncertainty that is present with any ancient writings. I’m a History major and of course that requires me to put my faith in age old historical documents. But when you mave something from simply a historical text to a religious one, well that raises the bar significantly, because your talking about something more than just “King such and such drove the whositwhatsits before him”, your talking about things beyond the physical.

Skadi-

Now we’re starting to get to some forks in the road. In an earlier post, you wrote, "Personaly, I like to think he was probably a pretty nice guy, a wandering Rabbi, who wound up getting screwed over by the system. "

If Jesus claimed to be God, was he crazy? I mean, who claims to be God except nut cases? Yet, you’ve read what He said about loving one another and his parables, etc., He doesn’t really strike you as crazy, does he? :nope:

So, was he a liar? He claimed to be God, but he knew he really wasn’t…that sort of eliminates the possibility that he’s a pretty nice guy, because pretty nice guys don’t intentionally deceive others into believing they are God. Not to mention the fact that he accepted the worship of his disciples on numerous occasions. Not very nice. :nope:

And as a historian, you’ve already ruled out the idea that Jesus was merely a legend; you agree that he was a real man.

So, where does that leave us? With the possibility that Jesus really was who he claimed to be?

 

[Skadi]

I have read the answers to my questions. It shows it is really a pagan religion that rooted in myths of gods which are false gods. I could not understand a person like you a Catholic fallen away from the Catholic faith to be deceived by these false gods. You have been deceived to ‘believe’ and have cut yourself from the true faith and from the One God the Triune God and from the source of life. You may think you are safe but you are not. You have chosen by your free will the path to eternal condemnation in this life and in the next life.
here more questions.

1. what is your god say but life after death? 2. Do you have a bible? 3. how do you pray? 4. Do you have a building to pray in? 5. Who lead the prayer? 6. Do you have a role in the prayer? 7. Do you evangelize? 8. Do you cast out demons? 9. can you ask your gods who created them as you said they came into being after the being bang? 10. Are you happy with these gods? 11. Do you know that they are false gods? 12. Do you love these false gods?

1. Those who die with honor in battle, in childbirth, or have done truly exceptional deeds are chosen to be taken to Valhalla, where they drink and feast with the gods and train for Ragnarok, the final battle.

Those who do not go to Valhalla most likely go to Hel, which as a misty realm within Nifelheim, the world of Ice.

1. There are many Sagas and recorded stories, but they are generally taken as allegorical myth. There is no place where the gods speak directly about human morality or lay down any sort of commandments.
2. I pray by living my life the best I can, and try to make myself a testament to my gods and ancestors. There are several festivals throughout the year aswell.
3. People I know normally use someones house or go outside. Traditionally in ancient times worship was conducted in sacred groves of trees.
4. Gothi or Gythja, the priest or priestess selected from among the group.
5. Im not a member of a particular Kindred at the moment.
6. No
7. You could, and im sure the knowledge is out there, Gullveig is involved in Seiðr and may know more.
8. Buri was the first God, and he was not created by anything, but formed within the ice of Nifelheim.
9. Perfectly happy.
10. I know you believe they are, but they are not.
11. I give them all the honor and respect the deserve a the gods of my people.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well in terms of what they represent they are actually almost identical.

Ullr is the son of Thors wife, Sif, and the God of Archery, Skiing, the Hunt, Winter, and Victory. He is the finest marksmen and skier amon the gods, noted for his good looks, and considered a good god to call on before a duel or sporting contest. He is mentioned in the Icelandic sagas but he seam’s to have lost some of his relevance over the years, being far more important to the Germans of classical antiquity than he was to the later Vikings or Anglo-Saxons. Interestingly, apart from Odin and Thor he may be the most widely know Germanic diety because of his status world wide as a patron of Skiers. In fact just this year Breckenridge, Colorado held its 50’th annual Ullrfest, where yearly skiers in town burn hundreds of old skis in a giant bonfire to bring good snow for the coming year.

Skadi somewhat replaced Ullr in later centuries, also being a goddess of Hunting, Skiing, and the mountains. The name Scandinavia may actually mean “Skadi’s Island”. In the Lokasenna she tells Loki he will receive poor council from her sacred groves, indicated she was probably actively worshiped in Scandinavia as an important deity. She is not actually a goddess by birth, but a giantess who married into the Aesir as part of a settlement after the Gods killed her father.

Im particularly fond of these two because im a avid bow hunter, to the point where its a religious experience. I also have been snowboarding sense i was about 9, and just generally prefer the winter. I dont necessarily like to ascribe events to divine intervention, but ive had a few instances where i seriously felt presence there. And I have had a very serious religious experience with the Goddess Freyja.

Skadi-

I’m going to tread lightly here because I don’t want to offend, is that okay?

It strikes me that these are very small gods. I’m not trying to belittle them or you, but the God I worship created all those things!

You can see what I mean from one song in praise of the Creator God. In line 8, snow itself is exhorted to praise my God, not Ullr while in line 9, the groves of cedars are told to praise their creator and not Skadi:

1 Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
Praise Him in the heights!

2 Praise Him, all His angels;
Praise Him, all His hosts!

3 Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all you stars of light!

4 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens,
And you waters above the heavens!

5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
For He commanded and they were created.

6 He also established them forever and ever;
He made a decree which shall not pass away.

7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
You great sea creatures and all the depths;

8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds;
Stormy wind, fulfilling His word;

9 Mountains and all hills;
Fruitful trees and all cedars;

10 Beasts and all cattle;
Creeping things and flying fowl;

11 Kings of the earth and all peoples;
Princes and all judges of the earth;

12 Both young men and maidens;
Old men and children.

13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above the earth and heaven.

14 And He has exalted the horn of His people,
The praise of all His saints—
Of the children of Israel,
A people near to Him.
Praise the Lord!

Skadi-

I applaud your desire to seek out the things of god and your obvious zeal for them. :clapping:

Do you think it might be better to worship the one who is above all?

 

[RonniSanMiguel]

Hey there Pagans! I mean absolutely no disrespect in the following questions, I’m just asking purely out of curiosity.

The Afterlife: do you truly believe what your respective traditions teach about it? Really honestly deep down? And what do you feel about the Christian versions of the afterlife?

Gods: do you believe that your respective traditions Gods are the only ones, or do you believe that the Heavens are split up of different traditions’ Gods and heavenly realms? Like Pagans for to Pagan Heaven, Christians go to Christian Heaven and so on? Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

 

[Skadi]

Skadi-

Now we’re starting to get to some forks in the road. In an earlier post, you wrote, "Personaly, I like to think he was probably a pretty nice guy, a wandering Rabbi, who wound up getting screwed over by the system. "

If Jesus claimed to be God, was he crazy? I mean, who claims to be God except nut cases? Yet, you’ve read what He said about loving one another and his parables, etc., He doesn’t really strike you as crazy, does he? :nope:

So, was he a liar? He claimed to be God, but he knew he really wasn’t…that sort of eliminates the possibility that he’s a pretty nice guy, because pretty nice guys don’t intentionally deceive others into believing they are God. Not to mention the fact that he accepted the worship of his disciples on numerous occasions. Not very nice. :nope:

And as a historian, you’ve already ruled out the idea that Jesus was merely a legend; you agree that he was a real man.

So, where does that leave us? With the possibility that Jesus really was who he claimed to be?

Its possible, sure, but i simply dont believe its as likely as one of the other answers possible. Sure Jesus could have been insane. In many places throughout the world the insane have been thought or treated as if they were closer to the spiritual. Heck the American Indians considered the insane to be big medicine. Maybe he realy was a good guy, preaching good things, who just got caught up in his followers adoration. Their understanding of mental health was extremely poor, its totally possible he could have had a undiagnosed illness.

A (And absolutely no offense intended here) cult leader walking around Israel with mental health problems getting the idea he is the son of god is actually a surprisingly conceivable concept. And his followers, so devoted to him even in his death (if he was actually the one crucified) that they exaggerated his deeds or flat out created miracle stories to win converts. Im not calling Christianity a cult, but look at how other religions based around a single charismatic prophet have effected people. The Branch Davidians were slaughtered fighting for their prophet, and remember Jonestown? That sort of fanatical behavior all stemmed from devotion to a prophetic figure. Compared to that does fabrication of stories sound so crazy?

The bible makes some bold claims, but its totally possible they were made with the writers or at least the witnesses consulted knowing they were not true.