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Socrates4Jesus
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Sorry for not replying sooner. So much to do; so little time!@Socrates4Jesus
Hello again!
I was beginning to think you had forgotten about me
I’d love to hear whatever it is you’d like to present to me.
If i recall, we were considering what objective evidence there is for the existence of God. The Koran seems to use the argument of intelligent design as pointing to a creator. In a nutshell, it claims that the universe could only come into existence if an all-powerful being created it.
The Bible uses the same argument, but also a more convincing one, in my opinion. The Bible makes the argument that the Bible could only exist if an all-knowing being had a hand in writing it. The argument is first proposed by Moses when he wrote:
17 The LORD said to me: “What they [the Jewish people] say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?” 22 **If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. **That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.*(Deuteronomy, chapter 18)*I find it fascinating that unlike any other religious text, the Bible makes the outrageous claim that its authors must successfully predict the future in order to be bona fide spokesman for God. This makes sense, for only an omniscient being could possibly predict the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. It’s sensible, but still outrageous.
If you’d like to examine one of the most convincing predictions made by one of authors of the Bible, let me know. It would not take long to show it to you so that you can make up your own mind.
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pyropam
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Hi Phooney,
We welcome you to post your questions here. We have learned over the years that when a person comes to this site, they are seeking truth. God is here! He is there with you, and he is here on this forum.
I guess the only question I would have for a person who claims to be an atheist would be WHY?
If I am wrong and God is really there, then what harm will come to me? But on the otherhand, if you are wrong, and God is here, then you could suffer horribly.
Why would you come to this site if you weren’t searching for him?
Why bother to discuss him with us?
I’m glad you are here.
God Bless,
Pam
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phooney
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Hi everybody, I’m a little bit busy tonight, so I wanted to let you know I’ll be responding properly tomorrow!
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Socrates4Jesus
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Cool. No rush! The forum will still be here even if you don’t come back for a few days. That’s part of the beauty of it.
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Aleii
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I am curious, what would someone have to say to make you think they are ready for it?
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inthecloud
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phooney should take al look on the Big Bang thread too. Interesting.
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grandfather
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In order to receive the gift of faith one must be receptive. One must want it. You are not receptive although you see yourself as honestly inquisitve. Instead of being receptive you are fighting it off, repelling the gift. I don’t know what words need to be said. Words are always inadequate. Some have a gift with words, but they always fall short. It is not what you need to say to me. It is what you need to say to God. You do not see yourself in need of faith or grace. You see yourself as intellectually curious, and you are, but that won’t help. We never know who will be touched by grace. Jesus said to the pharisees that He is the good shepherd and His sheep know Him and hear his voice. When He calls they hear Him and come. He told the pharisees they were not His sheep. They do not hear Him. We do not know why some recognize Him and others reject Him. He does not come for good people. He comes for those who see they are in need as a result of the evil they have done. You say you are a good person and you do not need God to help you in any way. You may remain this way, or your eyes may be opened. Maybe you can skip over the question and the whole process of seeking the evidence of God’s existence you probably will never find and ask another question. What does God do for those who have faith and obey His commands? I don’t know that that will work either. You probably will not be able to see that either. I am not criticizing you and the last thing I want or need is to get into a dispute or debate. That will not help. I wish I could share with you what I experience, even for the past 24 hours. I wish you could know what it is to have interior communion with the One who made you. You can believe it or not, your choice. You are missing something that if you had it, it would be more valuable to you than anytihng you have ever known. I hope you find it. God bless you.
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stringbeanduck
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Welcome, glad you have an open mind to God. Well first thing to do is to acknowledge it is impossible for life to occur by chance. Think critically, how is it possible for life to just happen? Some being who just is had to have started life. That being would not be subject to laws of time. When you come to that understanding you can start believing in God.
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_A
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Excellent question, phooney. Welcome to the forum.
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grandfather
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Chance is the magic of the skeptic. Everything we see has a cause. Then with a straight face the skeptc says existence is an accident.
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phooney
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@Socrates4Jesus
Hello again!
Yes, please I’d like to have a look at this prediction you speak of. By the way, I notice you have said that Moses wrote this passage. Modern scholarship actually disagrees with this and attributes the pentateuch to four anonymous sources, the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, spread out over hundreds of years.
What would it mean to you if something in the bible was wrong?
Hello again!
Yes, please I’d like to have a look at this prediction you speak of. By the way, I notice you have said that Moses wrote this passage. Modern scholarship actually disagrees with this and attributes the pentateuch to four anonymous sources, the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, spread out over hundreds of years.
What would it mean to you if something in the bible was wrong?
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phooney
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@Pyropam
Thanks for the welcome
I’ve already detailed why I would bother to discuss him here. The rest of your questions are basically known as “Pascal’s Wager” or “Pascal’s Flaw”
What you present is a false dichotomy because there is essentially an infinite number of possible gods. The options are not just the christian god exists or not. What if you die and when you get to the afterlife, and you are confronted by Zeus who asks why you didn’t believe in him and then makes you take the place of Prometheus? Without evidence, we are all taking exactly the same risk no matter what we believe about the afterlife.
So, if you are wrong and there’s a different god up there that is as jealous as the god of the bible, you are probably only making him angrier by worshipping a figment of your imagination. Or if there is no afterlife, you are wasting your precious limited time here in this life, the only life we have evidence for.
I hope that explains the situation well.
Thanks for the welcome
I’ve already detailed why I would bother to discuss him here. The rest of your questions are basically known as “Pascal’s Wager” or “Pascal’s Flaw”
What you present is a false dichotomy because there is essentially an infinite number of possible gods. The options are not just the christian god exists or not. What if you die and when you get to the afterlife, and you are confronted by Zeus who asks why you didn’t believe in him and then makes you take the place of Prometheus? Without evidence, we are all taking exactly the same risk no matter what we believe about the afterlife.
So, if you are wrong and there’s a different god up there that is as jealous as the god of the bible, you are probably only making him angrier by worshipping a figment of your imagination. Or if there is no afterlife, you are wasting your precious limited time here in this life, the only life we have evidence for.
I hope that explains the situation well.
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phooney
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@inthecloud
Yes I should! I hope to have time to do more browsing of this site this weekend.
Yes I should! I hope to have time to do more browsing of this site this weekend.
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phooney
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@grandfather
What DOES God do for those that have faith and obey his commands? What IS it like to have interior communion with the One who made you, and how can you tell the difference between this and simply your own internal monologue?
Chance is the magic of the skeptic? The universe is a huge and old place, with many varied environments, there really is a lot that can happen without the direction of any intelligence, I would have thought that was pretty undeniable! By existence were you talking about life, or just existence in general?
What DOES God do for those that have faith and obey his commands? What IS it like to have interior communion with the One who made you, and how can you tell the difference between this and simply your own internal monologue?
Chance is the magic of the skeptic? The universe is a huge and old place, with many varied environments, there really is a lot that can happen without the direction of any intelligence, I would have thought that was pretty undeniable! By existence were you talking about life, or just existence in general?
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phooney
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@stringbeanduck
Why is it impossible for life to occur by chance? There have been very interesting experiments conducted that attempt to simulate the environment of early Earth that have yeilded the building blocks of life, but as far as I’m aware they haven’t produced actual self-replicating life yet. So yes, we are ignorant of the finer details of how life started, but that is not evidence for anything except that ignorance. To assert that because we don’t know how life started, therefore God did it is just a “God of the Gaps” and those gaps are shrinking all the time. What would it mean for you if there is an advance in organic chemistry that was able to show how life started?
Why is it impossible for life to occur by chance? There have been very interesting experiments conducted that attempt to simulate the environment of early Earth that have yeilded the building blocks of life, but as far as I’m aware they haven’t produced actual self-replicating life yet. So yes, we are ignorant of the finer details of how life started, but that is not evidence for anything except that ignorance. To assert that because we don’t know how life started, therefore God did it is just a “God of the Gaps” and those gaps are shrinking all the time. What would it mean for you if there is an advance in organic chemistry that was able to show how life started?
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Socrates4Jesus
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I suppose it would depend on the nature of the error.
Regarding the authorship of Deuteronomy, there are many modern and respected scholars who point to sound evidence that Moses, indeed, was the author. Will you cite one of your sources and this critic’s reason for rejecting Moses as originator of the original autograph? I’d like to examine the evidence myself.
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_A
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I am really starting to like you, S4J! Dig in!
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grandfather
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