Another Birth Control Question

[Lost_Sheep]

The Church has the responsibility of spreading the Word of God and teaching it’s members the laws that God has put in place for us. That includes teaching sexual morals, just as it includes every other aspect of God’s law.

Perhaps, but I think the real reason the CC is against ABC and abortion is to increase its membership.

I joined the CAF back in November with the hope I might strengthen my faith and become a better Catholic but so far it seems to be having just the opposite effect. If you are not blindly conformant, and obey everything the Church teaches, then you are banished to Hell for all eternity.

Last week at the grocery store wife and I ran into a friend of ours that we use to sit beside in church. We hadn’t seen her in over a year. My wife casually asked what mass she was going to these days and the friend replied that she was no longer attending mass, and may leave the Church altogether. She said she was fed up with all the “stupid rules” the Church seems to be obsessed with. I can’t say as I disagree with her.

My aunt is the most devoutly lay Catholic I have every known. She is very active in her church, is a Communion Minister, visits the sick, has served on her church’s lay council, etc. She has been sort of my spiritual adviser ever since my grandmother - another devoutly Catholic lady - passed away in 2006. During Thanksgiving dinner, the subject of the Holy Father’s comment regarding condoms and AIDS (which was in the news at the time) came up. My aunt’s position on the subject? “Well it’s about time.” (referring to ABC in general; not just the AIDS issue.) Wow. Just Wow.

A few years ago at my Catholic High School reunion, I ran into a female classmate who, 20 years ago, entered a convent after she finished college. What is she doing now? She is a Lutheran minister. Same story: Too many rules.

One of the things that really gets my goat is what I call “compounding of sins”. For example:

1. When you go to confession, you must confess to EVERY sin.
2. If you deliberately omit mentioning a sin, your confession is invalid and none of your sins are absolved.
3. If it was a sin that you committed as a child, every confession you made since then is invalid and the sins are piling up.
4. If you receive Communion while in a state of sin, you have just committed another sin.
5. Following this “logic”, if you get married while in a state of sin, your marriage is invalid resulting in your children being born “out of wedlock.” Ooops! Another sin.

The Church expects everyone to be perfect - absolutely perfect - in order to obtain salvation. It is though She treats salvation as some exclusive club that She will let very few join. Well, Hello! People aren’t perfect; never have been; never will be.

The Church should focus more on the big picture and an overall assessment of a person’s life; not just go through a checklist of things you did or didn’t do in the course of your life. There is too much emphasis one what you’ve done wrong and very little credit is given for what you’ve done good. I’m sure Mother Teresa committed a few sins along the way too, and had to answer for them when she died. The Church doesn’t realize it (or maybe it does and doesn’t care) that it is alienating more people than it is winning over.

I am tired of being expected to be just some mindless robotic drone that conforms to every teaching without question. Catholicism is supposed to be a church; not a cult.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s my thread and I reserve the right to hijack it.

 

[davidv]

Perhaps, but I think the real reason the CC is against ABC and abortion is to increase its membership.

I joined the CAF back in November with the hope I might strengthen my faith and become a better Catholic but so far it seems to be having just the opposite effect. If you are not blindly conformant, and obey everything the Church teaches, then you are banished to Hell for all eternity.

Last week at the grocery store wife and I ran into a friend of ours that we use to sit beside in church. We hadn’t seen her in over a year. My wife casually asked what mass she was going to these days and the friend replied that she was no longer attending mass, and may leave the Church altogether. She said she was fed up with all the “stupid rules” the Church seems to be obsessed with. I can’t say as I disagree with her.

My aunt is the most devoutly lay Catholic I have every known. She is very active in her church, is a Communion Minister, visits the sick, has served on her church’s lay council, etc. She has been sort of my spiritual adviser ever since my grandmother - another devoutly Catholic lady - passed away in 2006. During Thanksgiving dinner, the subject of the Holy Father’s comment regarding condoms and AIDS (which was in the news at the time) came up. My aunt’s position on the subject? “Well it’s about time.” (referring to ABC in general; not just the AIDS issue.) Wow. Just Wow.

A few years ago at my Catholic High School reunion, I ran into a female classmate who, 20 years ago, entered a convent after she finished college. What is she doing now? She is a Lutheran minister. Same story: Too many rules.

One of the things that really gets my goat is what I call “compounding of sins”. For example:

1. When you go to confession, you must confess to EVERY sin.
2. If you deliberately omit mentioning a sin, your confession is invalid and none of your sins are absolved.
3. If it was a sin that you committed as a child, every confession you made since then is invalid and the sins are piling up.
4. If you receive Communion while in a state of sin, you have just committed another sin.
5. Following this “logic”, if you get married while in a state of sin, your marriage is invalid resulting in your children being born “out of wedlock.” Ooops! Another sin.

The Church expects everyone to be perfect - absolutely perfect - in order to obtain salvation. It is though She treats salvation as some exclusive club that She will let very few join. Well, Hello! People aren’t perfect; never have been; never will be.

The Church should focus more on the big picture and an overall assessment of a person’s life; not just go through a checklist of things you did or didn’t do in the course of your life. There is too much emphasis one what you’ve done wrong and very little credit is given for what you’ve done good. I’m sure Mother Teresa committed a few sins along the way too, and had to answer for them when she died. The Church doesn’t realize it (or maybe it does and doesn’t care) that it is alienating more people than it is winning over.

I am tired of being expected to be just some mindless robotic drone that conforms to every teaching without question. Catholicism is supposed to be a church; not a cult.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s my thread and I reserve the right to hijack it.

The Church does what it does because she was appointed by Jesus to do so. Your personal preferences don’t define truth.

It also appears that you might the one who is the mindless robot, not Catholics, obeying every whim of passion without thinking about its consequence.

 

[Incomplete]

I’m so sorry for your pain.

If you think that the Church says you must be sinless to enter heaven, that’s not correct. But all people sin, whether they recognize it or not. The Church tells us about sin not to induce guilt, but to show us God’s great, great mercy.

You have many misconceptions in your comments. For example, no, the Church does not teach that if you miss confessing a sin, then all your confessions are invalid. It doesn’t teach that if you marry in a state of sin, your marriage is invalid. It doesn’t teach that if your marriage is anulled, the children are born out of wedlock, or that having children is a sin if it turns out your marriage is anulled.

I am not often here at CAF. You can find a fair amount of disagreement on a lot of issues here. If you want to know the teachings of the Church a bit better, this is not the place. (Though I misspeak. Some are very knowledgeable and back their stuff up with Church documents. But still, documents can be misread.) Your RCIA class might be a better place, followed up by discussions with your priest on any issue you don’t understand.

The birth control issue, I do feel your pain. I was later in life when starting to use NFP, and the thought of getting pregnant at that age, for all the reasons you stated, scared me a lot. I didn’t do it because of some blind conformity to the Church. I had at one time been a cafeteria Catholic, and when that changed, the last to go was birth control because I was so accustomed to it that I never even gave it a second thought.

It was through something that felt like a very strong calling from God, the first time in my life that I ever felt He was asking something of me, that I changed. Something happened one day (I won’t get into it here) that made me think He was asking me to give up birth control. I wrestled with it, prayed a lot, finally said, “God, if that’s what you want, I’ll do it. But YOU have to be the one to take care of my husband. If You do that, I’ll stop using birth control.”

My husband and I had never even discussed the subject of stopping. Why would we? I was still ovulating. And he was very much a cafeteria Catholic.

Less than 24 hours later he brought it up. He was open to NFP. I couldn’t believe it.

On the one hand, I was scared. On the other, there was something pretty special about doing something that hard for God. More special yet was the thought that God had asked something of me. Who am I to deserve that?

The Church would have us see that we are all sinners, never in a million years can we be “good enough” for God, yet God would have us anyway. When you really look at other churches you’ll find that they may have less “rules” (depending on the church) but they all tend to say you have to believe in Jesus as God to end up in heaven. The Catholic church says that we just don’t know, that through God’s mercy, even atheists may end up in heaven if they are striving for the truth.

What better proof that it is not a Church that says you can go to hell for any little infraction of “rules”?

 

[Incomplete]

Perhaps, but I think the real reason the CC is against ABC and abortion is to increase its membership.

Sorry for the rant, but it’s my thread and I reserve the right to hijack it.

I had to laugh at your last line.

I understand people’s struggle with ABC, but I don’t understand how you can say the Church would be against abortion because they want to increase membership. There are even atheists who are against abortion. Surely every group against abortion doesn’t have membership as its reason. And surely every person or group who is against ABC (as are some Protestants I know) don’t have membership as an ulterior motive.

 

[Abu]

Lost_Sheep
If you are not blindly conformant, and obey everything the Church teaches, then you are banished to Hell for all eternity…it’s my thread and I reserve the right to hijack it.
I’m sorry that you are so confused and misled.

Your errors seem to confuse mortal sins with venial, and the unawareness that for a sin to be mortal thee has to be full knowledge and consent and the matter has to be grave. It appears that the subject of “birth control” is only an introduction to a litany of unfortunate fantasies.

It happens to be the Christ who warned “Nothing defiled shall enter heaven” (Rev 21:27) and that’s why He gave us His Church with His full authority to teach His truths and to bind and loose, and His seven sacraments which She alone, apart from baptism which is through Her mandate anyway, dispenses. We also know that “Not all sin is deadly.” (1 Jn 5:17).

It is frightfully naïve to feel that She expects all to be perfect on earth – why would She have the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and all the prayers of petition and forgiveness?

The Church doesn’t realize it (or maybe it does and doesn’t care) that it is alienating more people than it is winning over. I am tired of being expected to be just some mindless robotic drone that conforms to every teaching without question. Catholicism is supposed to be a church; not a cult.

Those who have left have fallen prey to the devil the world and the flesh – and perhaps you’ve near heard of the so-called Enlightenment, the Protestant Revolt, and the “parallel magisterium of theologians” who with flower power, secularism, the psychologists and sexologists wreaked havoc among the faithful, before and after Vatican II.

If you really care, “ask and it will be given to you, seek, and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened for you.’ (Mt 7:7).
I’m listening.

 

[Incomplete]

Re-reading your post, you seem to think that the Church says it is difficult to have your sins forgiven. On the contrary, Eucharist, among other things, forgives venial sins. Check the catechism.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Re-reading your post, you seem to think that the Church says it is difficult to have your sins forgiven. On the contrary, Eucharist, among other things, forgives venial sins. Check the catechism.

Who decides if a sin is moral or venial?

 

[Incomplete]

Who decides if a sin is moral or venial?

God does, through the 10 commandments. The catechism covers this, CCC 1858:

“Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger”.

Note that the Church sees mortal sins as sins in which you knowingly and willfully turned your back on God. The Church says it like this: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

 

[davidv]

Who decides if a sin is moral or venial?

I think you meant mortal and not moral.

Mortal sin is committed when all three of these features are present:

1. Grave matter (examples: violating the ten commandments)
2. Knowledge of the gravity
3. Full consent

Only the sinner and God can decide in any particular case.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Define "grave’.

 

[Incomplete]

Define "grave’.

From the Catechism:

“Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger”.

It might be helpful for you to read the catechism. One way to think of mortal sin (I assume this is why you’re asking about grave matter) is when you are in a situation where you are thinking of doing something that you know that God disapproves of, something more serious than, say, arguing with a spouse, and you willfully decide that your will is more important than God’s will, and you know that it is the kind of thing that can cause a severance in your relationship with God…all these things have to be present for mortal sin. In other words, it’s kind of a way of telling God you care more about the sin you will commit than you do about Him.

If you want to turn your back to God, He allows it. But He also allows you to come back to Him. He welcomes you with open arms.

I want to ask you something, and please don’t take offense. I’m asking because of where I lack.

I sometimes lack the discernment to tell what people really intend on these forums. I get a sense from your posts that you are truly seeking understanding, but sometimes people come onto these forums for other reasons. Sometimes it’s to justify their own actions, sometimes it’s even to show their contempt of the Church. Obviously there are other reasons, too.

Am I reading you correctly? Are you seeking understanding?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

One way to think of mortal sin (I assume this is why you’re asking about grave matter) is when you are in a situation where you are thinking of doing something that you know that God disapproves of, something more serious than, say, arguing with a spouse, and you willfully decide that your will is more important than God’s will.

I’ll be honest.

I really don’t give a rat’s patootie about God’s will. I care about my will and only my will. There have been times where I actually felt a sense of hate for Him. In moments of anger, I have even threatened to pledge my soul to the Devil because I feel God has singled me out to be unhappy. The only reason I still go to mass and haven’t quit the Church altogether is because I believe He will only make it worse. I’m not there because I love Him; I’m only there every Sunday to kiss His great big fat omnipotent ***. I don’t stick with the Church because I want to; I stay because of what might happen if I quit.

When I was a child in Catholic grade school - back when they still had nuns - the good Sisters told us, in language that a child could understand, that “God cries when he loses someones soul.” I figure if that the only way I can back at Him is to sacrifice my own soul, then so be it. Besides, odds are I’m not going to Heaven when I die anyhow so what difference does it make.

I want to ask you something, and please don’t take offense. I’m asking because of where I lack.

I sometimes lack the discernment to tell what people really intend on these forums. I get a sense from your posts that you are truly seeking understanding, but sometimes people come onto these forums for other reasons. Sometimes it’s to justify their own actions, sometimes it’s even to show their contempt of the Church. Obviously there are other reasons, too.

Am I reading you correctly? Are you seeking understanding?

No offense taken; thanks for asking.

Yes, better understanding is correct, but that is not all of it. I do feel some contempt for the Church and perhaps even a little contempt for God. But I’m not here to be a troll. I’m frustrated and angry. I’ve also been looking for sounding board to vent some of my feelings.

For the record, I’m a cradle Catholic. I went to Catholic school and high school. I belonged to the Newman Club in college, I’m a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus and I serve as an usher at mass. My wife is also a devout Catholic (more so than I will ever be). Just so you know I’m not a pot stirring nut with a chip on his shoulder.

My feelings are nothing new. This is a culmination of many, many years of deep thought, introspection, and contemplation which unfortunately has led me to this unhappy conclusion.

 

[catharina]

I’ll be honest.

I really don’t give a rat’s patootie about God’s will. I care about my will and only my will. There have been times where I actually felt a sense of hate for Him. In moments of anger, I have even threatened to pledge my soul to the Devil because I feel God has singled me out to be unhappy. The only reason I still go to mass and haven’t quit the Church altogether is because I believe He will only make it worse. I’m not there because I love Him; I’m only there every Sunday to kiss His great big fat omnipotent ***. I don’t stick with the Church because I want to; I stay because of what might happen if I quit.

When I was a child in Catholic grade school - back when they still had nuns - the good Sisters told us, in language that a child could understand, that “God cries when he loses someones soul.” I figure if that the only way I can back at Him is to sacrifice my own soul, then so be it. Besides, odds are I’m not going to Heaven when I die anyhow so what difference does it make.

No offense taken; thanks for asking.

Yes, better understanding is correct, but that is not all of it. I do feel some contempt for the Church and perhaps even a little contempt for God. But I’m not here to be a troll. I’m frustrated and angry. I’ve also been looking for sounding board to vent some of my feelings.

For the record, I’m a cradle Catholic. I went to Catholic school and high school. I belonged to the Newman Club in college, I’m a Fourth Degree Knight of Columbus and I serve as an usher at mass. My wife is also a devout Catholic (more so than I will ever be). Just so you know I’m not a pot stirring nut with a chip on his shoulder.

My feelings are nothing new. This is a culmination of many, many years of deep thought, introspection, and contemplation which unfortunately has led me to this unhappy conclusion.

Yet your feelings are disordered in many respects, yes?
To act from feelings of contempt is self-destructive and dishonest.

Does that help at all?
Do you know that counseling is available to those in such straits?
Deep thought, introspection, “contemplation” have led to misery.
Is that sufficient for you - a life of misery?
Have you the humility to seek guidance?

 

[davidv]

Define "grave’.

From the Catechism

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

 

[Incomplete]

I want you to know I have in the past felt much as you express today. I have in the past said things to God that make me shiver today…not at His reaction (I know I need not fear that) but because of what I know today, how I’ve come to love Him after all.

I can tell you this, too: life is much, much better this way. Even the difficult things, the things that used to make me go, look, God, IF You exist, why do you hate me so much?, even those things are better this way.

I came back through a lot of searching, not through fear or an attempt to make life better. I can’t say I’m all the way back, not by any means, but I’ve made a lot of progress.

I hope you find a way past this anger for all sorts of reasons. Speaking from experiencing life both ways, I can tell you my heart goes out to you.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Yet your feelings are disordered in many respects, yes?
To act from feelings of contempt is self-destructive and dishonest.

Does that help at all?

Yes, a little

Do you know that counseling is available to those in such straits?

I should also mention that I have been being treated for clinical depression for the past 15 years, though hindsight tells me I probably had it all my life. It just wasn’t diagnosed until 1996. I take a whole cocktail of medications to try and keep my head on straight.

Deep thought, introspection, “contemplation” have led to misery.
Is that sufficient for you - a life of misery?

Of course not. But it is not of my own choosing

Have you the humility to seek guidance?

My cup runneth over with humility. But I have yet to find anyone who really understands where I’m coming from or who doesn’t think I’m a certified nut. On counselor I was seeing finally threw up her hands in disgust, told me I was hopeless and beyond help and refused to see me anymore.

Please don’t suggest I talk to my priest. All they do is tell me to pray more and everything will be alright. Prayer and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at 7-Eleven.

 

[Incomplete]

My cup runneth over with humility. But I have yet to find anyone who really understands where I’m coming from or who doesn’t think I’m a certified nut. On counselor I was seeing finally threw up her hands in disgust, told me I was hopeless and beyond help and refused to see me anymore.

Please don’t suggest I talk to my priest. All they do is tell me to pray more and everything will be alright. Prayer and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at 7-Eleven.

My mother struggled with the same thing. It was finally at the very end of her life that she found a psychiatrist who was able to help her. Through her struggles, and through some of my own, I understand your last line as well.

When looking through the painful eyes of depression, everything looks different. You say you are probably going to hell; I doubt that God is so quick to condemn you.

As far as talking to a priest, my own priest would not say to just pray, but would also not be able to help with your depression. He would, though, be willing to help with how it impacts your spiritual life. I hope at some time you can find a priest who can do that for you.

 

[catharina]

Yes, a little

I should also mention that I have been being treated for clinical depression for the past 15 years, though hindsight tells me I probably had it all my life. It just wasn’t diagnosed until 1996. I take a whole cocktail of medications to try and keep my head on straight.

Of course not. But it is not of my own choosing

My cup runneth over with humility. But I have yet to find anyone who really understands where I’m coming from or who doesn’t think I’m a certified nut. On counselor I was seeing finally threw up her hands in disgust, told me I was hopeless and beyond help and refused to see me anymore.

Please don’t suggest I talk to my priest. All they do is tell me to pray more and everything will be alright. Prayer and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at 7-Eleven.

Thank you for your honesty.
It helps me to understand what seemed evident and now you’ve acknowledged it.

Clinical depression runs in my family also.
My own opinion is that in many instances, it is intractable, unmovable.
Yes, meds might take the edge off, but bottom line,
life ain’t no party place when one suffers from this disease.

At best, cognitive therapy might give more relief -
meaning one takes on the habit of reminding oneself that
the horrible moods/attitudes are rerflections of a disease process.

For example, each morning as the world descends to clobber you in the head
you remind yourself - hey! I feel ROTTEN due to my medical condition.
It’s not 'the world is awful or God is awful or my wife is awful or my priests are awfu’l -
it’s my condition. I feel awful because I feel awful!

Believe it or not, re-conditioning one’s thoughts in this way can lessen the load.
It removes the aspect of “I must be terrible, inadequate, crazy to feel so badly.”

No. You are none of those things. Instead - you suffer from depression -
and man, that is one mighty deep hole.

Peace to you.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

You say you are probably going to hell; I doubt that God is so quick to condemn you.

That’s another thing.

No disrespect to what you are saying, but you are unable to read God’s mind. When people say “Oh, I don’t think God would condemn you for that.” what they are really saying is “If I were God I wouldn’t condemn you for that.” We can’t presume to know what God thinks and it is this uncertainty that scares me. I have a terrible fear of the unknown.

People tell me “You should not worry about things over which you have no control, because what’s gonna happen is gonna happen” but that is precisely why I worry about it; it’s because I have no control over the situation. Things I can control or have influence over don’t bother me. I shudder to imagine what God may be thinking.

We hope that on Judgment Day God will exercise discretion cut us some slack, but on the other hand if He does things “by the book” then we might be in trouble.

As far as talking to a priest, my own priest would not say to just pray, but would also not be able to help with your depression. He would, though, be willing to help with how it impacts your spiritual life. I hope at some time you can find a priest who can do that for you.

You know what I would really like to find? A mental health facility run by the CC that puts equal emphasis on both the medical and the spiritual aspect of depressive disorders. But so far, I have yet to find one.

 

[Incomplete]

That’s another thing.

No disrespect to what you are saying, but you are unable to read God’s mind. When people say “Oh, I don’t think God would condemn you for that.” what they are really saying is “If I were God I wouldn’t condemn you for that.” We can’t presume to know what God thinks and it is this uncertainty that scares me. I have a terrible fear of the unknown.

People tell me “You should not worry about things over which you have no control, because what’s gonna happen is gonna happen” but that is precisely why I worry about it; it’s because I have no control over the situation. Things I can control or have influence over don’t bother me. I shudder to imagine what God may be thinking.

We hope that on Judgment Day God will exercise discretion cut us some slack, but on the other hand if He does things “by the book” then we might be in trouble.

You know what I would really like to find? A mental health facility run by the CC that puts equal emphasis on both the medical and the spiritual aspect of depressive disorders. But so far, I have yet to find one.

No disrespect taken. On the whole, I agree with you. I also understand that not worrying about the future is much easier said than done.

I do have trouble with the concept of a God who would die for us in a painful, humiliating way not cutting us some slack. That is why I think you can have some hope. I am not suggesting that I know you will not go to hell, just as I can’t say that I will be saved from hell, but I think there is reason for hope that God is not merciless. That hope is what I would like to give you.

And yes, I so totally agree with your last comment.