Another Birth Control Question

[Lost_Sheep]

Yet it’s clear you have other, primary responsibilities.
You are a married man - with all that entails.
As such, you have particular obligations.
We can’t abandon our duties, our vocation, for anything else.
You’ve been in a Sacramnetal marriage for decades.
To put it simply, that is your “job” in God’s view.

I’m not saying that earthly obligations are not important, but in the grand scheme of things, which is more important?

God or your job?
God or your spouse?
God or your children?

Isn’t that what Jesus told the Apostles? Leave everything behind and come follow me? And isn’t that what they did?

 

[catharina]

I’m not saying that earthly obligations are not important, but in the grand scheme of things, which is more important?

God or your job?
God or your spouse?
God or your children?

Isn’t that what Jesus told the Apostles? Leave everything behind and come follow me? And isn’t that what they did?

God has confirmed you in a Sacramental marriage.
That is the basic fact in your life.

If you believe that God is now calling you to a different
vocation, that’s another matter entirely.
Yet that doesn’t seem to be your issue at all.

 

[white_sheep]

I’m not saying that earthly obligations are not important, but in the grand scheme of things, which is more important?

God or your job?
God or your spouse?
God or your children?

Isn’t that what Jesus told the Apostles? Leave everything behind and come follow me? And isn’t that what they did?

God always comes first, but that doesn’t mean you can shirk your responsibilities. You took vows before God in marriage, you can’t break those vows. You have a responsibility to provide for your family. You can’t separate the two, part of putting God first is acting in a Christ-like manner towards your earthly responsibilities, not walking away from them.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Yes, I am being facetious here. But it does back to my point. It is impossible to live up to the standards God has put forth. You cannot be perfect, but that is what God expects.

 

[davidv]

Yes, I am being facetious here. But it does back to my point. It is impossible to live up to the standards God has put forth. You cannot be perfect, but that is what God expects.

With God’s grace all is possible, even being prefect as Jesus asks us to be.

 

[RichP]

Nothing is more important that God, right?

So eliminating everything else from your life and devoting 100% of yourself to Him seems to be the ticket.

You are either misunderstanding or misinterpreting a VERY important point. Of course, you should devote yourself to God because without God, you have nothing. You should thank God for every breath you take!

This does not mean eliminating everything else from your life. It means detaching yourself from material things and their relative importance in your life as compared to God. Maybe for some people it means giving away everything they own and living like a hermit because they are so attached to money and material things. Other people who have acquired great wealth during their life are very close to God because they are detached from their wealth. They know that if they lose all their possessions tomorrow, it would mean nothing compared to committing a mortal sin and losing God.

Why does God give us so much “stuff” in our lives? Is it some sort of cruel joke where he is trying to distract us? No! Everything beautiful and true on this earth is here for us in order to bring us closer to God. Everything! Why would we want to eliminate something from our life that brings us closer to God?

What we need to do is eliminate the trash from our lives that pull us away from God. Of course that is difficult, sometimes very difficult. We will probably never get rid of all the trash in our life but that doesn’t mean that we don’t constantly work on it.

Peace,

 

[kbachler]

God’s law tells us that contraception is intrinsically evil and a sin that is mortal to our souls.

Can you give me a Biblical reference for this aspect of God’s law, and also reconcile this with Romans 14? Thank you.

 

[Abu]

Kbachler
Can you give me a Biblical reference for this aspect of God’s law, and also reconcile this with Romans 14?

We do know for certain that God is against contraception. God killed Onan for contraception (Gen 38:8-10).

It is very important not to judge a person’s guilt before God as commanded (Mt 7:1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).

But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerized by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.

 

[kbachler]

We do know for certain that God is against contraception. God killed Onan for contraception (Gen 38:8-10).

Actually, this is not correct. Old Testament laws talk about what to do when seed is spilled, whether accidntally or not. The “punishment” is ritual washing. (BTW, we know that others were practicing contraception at this time, so why would God kill ONLY Onan).

Nor was Onan being punished for not fulfilling his duty of providing an heir, the punishment for which is public humiliation.

Rather, God punished Onan because he said he accepted the obligation to provide and heir, and then did otherwise, thus lying about it - and Onan was also in the line to David.

It is very important not to judge a person’s guilt before God as commanded (Mt 7:1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).

But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerized by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.

Not sure what the rest of this post had to do with the question at hand.

 

[Abu]

Kbachler
**God kills Onan for contraception
Onan
Answer by Fr. John Echert on May, 3, 2008 (EWTN): **
“The sin is NOT that of adultery, which is to take the wife of another man. In fact, it was expected and eventually required that if a man died without a son to continue his posterity, his brother was to take his wife after his death as his own and raise up a family by her. So the sin was not in taking his deceased brothers wife but in spilling his seed on the ground. This action is explicit in the text–spilled his seed on the ground–and is the most obvious cause for which he was put to death by God Himself. This is an important text which supports the moral teaching of the Church – and nature – that contraception is mortally sinful.”

Egoism motivates fornication and contraception, because the goal is not self-giving, but rather the immediate pleasure of self-satisfaction. EWTN is a good source for understanding the teaching of Sacred Scripture.

So what is your problem with Romans 14?

 

[yahweh80]

Lost_Sheep,
Do you trust God??? Either you do or you don’t. There isn’t an in between.

 

[twoangels]

Lost_Sheep,
Do you trust God??? Either you do or you don’t. There isn’t an in between.

??? I only just read this last message. No idea where this comment came from, but there is definitely an inbetween.

Mark 9:24 “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief.”

 

[yahweh80]

Just asking Lost_Sheep if they trust God. I don’t think there is an in between in trusting. Either you trust and give everything over to Him, or you don’t trust Him at all. I am not saying it is an easy thing to do, but trusting God in all things is where our happiness comes from.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Lost_Sheep,
Do you trust God??? Either you do or you don’t. There isn’t an in between.

Put it this way: I have never seen any reason to believe I can trust Him.

 

[twoangels]

Just asking Lost_Sheep if they trust God. I don’t think there is an in between in trusting. Either you trust and give everything over to Him, or you don’t trust Him at all. I am not saying it is an easy thing to do, but trusting God in all things is where our happiness comes from.

There is always room to grow in trusting God more. I’ve made a lot of choices in my life trusting God’s good intentions, His will for me and yet periodically I have doubts and still find that I’m always challenged to trust. I don’t think its an either or at all.

 

[LilyM]

Put it this way: I have never seen any reason to believe I can trust Him.

The fact that He loved you so much that He came to earth for you, and DIED for you, so that you might be with Him, is not reason to trust Him? To do what is best for you, at least, if not what is most comfortable?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

The fact that He loved you so much that He came to earth for you, and DIED for you, so that you might be with Him, is not reason to trust Him? To do what is best for you, at least, if not what is most comfortable?

All that happened 2000 years before I was born. And I certainly didn’t ask him to do it. Besides, I don’t see and never have seen the connection between his death and souls being saved. God could have accomplished the same result by just snapping his fingers. No need for all the theatrics.

Sorry, but the “Christ died for us” argument doesn’t cut any ice with me, and anyone who believes it is just abysmally naive. People believe things because they want to believe them; that doesn’t make it so.

 

[yahweh80]

There is always room to grow in trusting God more. I’ve made a lot of choices in my life trusting God’s good intentions, His will for me and yet periodically I have doubts and still find that I’m always challenged to trust. I don’t think its an either or at all.

Sorry, twoangels, I guess what I should have said is are you working on trusting God or trying to trust God. Of course we can always grow in our trust of Him. Maybe I should have asked Lost_Sheep if he tried to trust God, or had the desire to trust God. Sorry if this doesn’t make sense.

 

[catharina]

All that happened 2000 years before I was born. And I certainly didn’t ask him to do it. Besides, I don’t see and never have seen the connection between his death and souls being saved. God could have accomplished the same result by just snapping his fingers. No need for all the theatrics.

Sorry, but the “Christ died for us” argument doesn’t cut any ice with me, and anyone who believes it is just abysmally naive. People believe things because they want to believe them; that doesn’t make it so.

You’re suffering from depression, if I recall correctly, and that’s obvious
with your total disconnect from even slight empathy in reference to the life,
passion and death of Jesus Christ. Dismissing His sacrifice as “all the
theatrics” is about as cold a statement as I’ve ever heard. Saying that
you didn’t “ask for” salvation seems identical to the cry of angry teens who
state “… I didn’t ask to be born,” a statement that they seem to feel gives
them the ‘carte blanche’ right to be selfish, self-serving and self-involved
until natual death stops their rebellion. For an adult, male or female, to
be so self-indulgent is beyond my imaginings other than in the case of
neurological impariment or chronic disregard for others. If your depression
is beneath all of this disconnect, get help. Just saying …

… even a five-minute meditation on the Passion of Christ could help you.

 

[LilyM]

All that happened 2000 years before I was born. And I certainly didn’t ask him to do it. Besides, I don’t see and never have seen the connection between his death and souls being saved. God could have accomplished the same result by just snapping his fingers. No need for all the theatrics.

Sorry, but the “Christ died for us” argument doesn’t cut any ice with me, and anyone who believes it is just abysmally naive. People believe things because they want to believe them; that doesn’t make it so.

Of course you didn’t ask Him to do it for you - but then again, a child doesn’t ask its mother or father to feed it, bathe it, clothe it or nurture it either.

A loving parent doesn’t do things merely because the child asks. Oftentimes the child isn’t intelligent enough to know what it needs or to ask for what it needs anyway. The parent does the things for the child because it CARES. An intelligent child knows from past experience that much, and so trusts that the parent will continue to provide for its needs.

As for ‘believing being naive’, or believing simply because I want to believe, well for years I didn’t. And I was dead wrong and naive THEN.

The fact is I AM alive, fed, nurtured, provided for and supported. And no, not merely by other people or my own efforts either. Those efforts certainly don’t account for all the help I’ve received over the course of my life.

How else do you account for the vast gap between the blessings and help you’ve been given (and every breath and every beat of your heart is another one of those blessings) and what it’s possible for a human to achieve either alone or together with other humans, except that divine providence makes up for the shortfall?

It’s far more naive to believe that you’ve achieved EVERYTHING through your own efforts or those of others - neither your own efforts nor those of other people keep your heart and lungs functioning, for starters.