Another conditional baptism question

[RHC]

I was reading this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=281520 on Conditional Baptism. And now I am very concerned.

My husband and I are converting from a Southern Baptist/Presbyterian background. We were both baptised in the Southern Baptist church…I was about 6, he was a little older (I think - I need to ask him).

We were originally told at RCIA that our baptisms would be valid. However, then the problem of documentation came up. You see, our former pastor (of the Baptist church) is fairly anti-Catholic, so I do not think he will provide any documentation to help us with this conversion. Baptists do not keep baptismal records like Catholics do, so there is no record of our baptism (like a certificate or anything).

So our priest has said we need to be baptised, just to make sure. I understand he is concerned about whether it was done correctly, but I remember my baptism and it was “in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” My husband’s was as well. We don’t want to be sacreligious (sp?).

In my case, my dad actually baptised me, with the pastor overseeing. My dad might provide a letter, confirming my baptism, but will that be enough? In my husband’s case, my in-laws might provide confirmation of baptism, but does the Church accept a layperson’s word on the subject? Especially laity of a non-Catholic church?

Added: If the Church does not accept our parents’ word on the matter, is a conditional baptism what we need?

 

[jmcrae]

In my case, my dad actually baptised me, with the pastor overseeing. My dad might provide a letter, confirming my baptism, but will that be enough?

Most likely, yes, as long as he includes at least approximate dates, the name of the Church where it happened, and describes what he himself witnessed, including the formula used for the baptism.

In my husband’s case, my in-laws might provide confirmation of baptism, but does the Church accept a layperson’s word on the subject? Especially laity of a non-Catholic church?

As long as the testimony is consistent, thorough (date, place, formula used), and first-hand, there shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

So our priest has said we need to be baptised, just to make sure. I understand he is concerned about whether it was done correctly, but I remember my baptism and it was “in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” My husband’s was as well. We don’t want to be sacreligious (sp?).

It sounds like your baptisms were probably valid, but if there is the smallest doubt your pastor will do a “conditional” baptism. Nothing sacrilegious about it. He basically says, “If you are not already baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

If your original baptism was indeed valid, nothing “happens.” If your original baptism had not been valid, this one would be.

Either way, you would then be officially baptized, only once.

 

[puzzleannie]

I In my case, my dad actually baptised me, with the pastor overseeing. My dad might provide a letter, confirming my baptism, but will that be enough? In my husband’s case, my in-laws might provide confirmation of baptism, but does the Church accept a layperson’s word on the subject? Especially laity of a non-Catholic church?

yes, if you followed the other thread, you will have seen that if no formal record was kept a statement by a witness is acceptable, who was old enough to observe and remember, and can attest the baptism was with water, using the Trinitarian formula. Some (not all) Baptist baptisms are problematic because their ministers have a lot of leeway in what they do and say. note: do not judge your situation by that of others on these forums, because everyone’s situation is different.

further note to those in RCIA–the time spent speculating and reviewing what can only be general answers on this forum would be better spent in solid conversation with your pastor about your personal situation, where you lay down all the facts regarding your baptism, marriage etc., whatever is the issue, and get answers to your questions that pertain to you, not anyone else.

 

[George_C]

RHC, you’re in much the same boat as I.

I am hoping that my mother confirming that I was baptized in a First Baptist Church in 1978 is sufficient.

The problem is that the church doesn’t exist anymore. There is a church with the same name in town, but that one’s only ten years old or so. So documentation is impossible.

I’m waiting on Corrine from OLOS to call me.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I was reading this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=281520 on Conditional Baptism. And now I am very concerned.

My husband and I are converting from a Southern Baptist/Presbyterian background. We were both baptised in the Southern Baptist church…I was about 6, he was a little older (I think - I need to ask him).

We were originally told at RCIA that our baptisms would be valid. However, then the problem of documentation came up. You see, our former pastor (of the Baptist church) is fairly anti-Catholic, so I do not think he will provide any documentation to help us with this conversion. Baptists do not keep baptismal records like Catholics do, so there is no record of our baptism (like a certificate or anything).

So our priest has said we need to be baptised, just to make sure. I understand he is concerned about whether it was done correctly, but I remember my baptism and it was “in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” My husband’s was as well. We don’t want to be sacreligious (sp?).

In my case, my dad actually baptised me, with the pastor overseeing. My dad might provide a letter, confirming my baptism, but will that be enough? In my husband’s case, my in-laws might provide confirmation of baptism, but does the Church accept a layperson’s word on the subject? Especially laity of a non-Catholic church?

Added: If the Church does not accept our parents’ word on the matter, is a conditional baptism what we need?

.
You should only be Baptized if it is certain beyond any doubt that the attempt at Baptism was clearly invalid.

Conditional Baptism ASAP, in private, is intended to settle the matter with certainty. But again should only be considered if serious doubt exists after an investigation.

Written statements from the person who Baptized you where, when, and how and or witnesses are sufficient. The Bishop of your diocese should have written guidelines for this.

 

[GailMac]

So, how long are they willing to make God wait to give you His peace with you and your hubby’s poor souls?

Peace,

Gail

P.S. Tomorrow I’m voting for McCain and Palin AND proud to do so! Yippie the wait is almost over…

 

[George_C]

Don’t trust them.

I’m writing in Ron Paul.

 

[RHC]

Thanks for the replies. My husband and I will speak with our priest about this.

Puzzleannie - I asked because the witnesses in my question are NOT Catholic. The other thread was a witness who was a Catholic nurse who had baptised the infant in question…not a non-Catholic witness. I wasn’t sure if the same rules applied for non-Catholic witnesses. Most of us in RCIA, from what I have seen on this forum, ask questions here because we feel more comfortable asking questions here than bothering the priest with minutiae. Armed with such general knowledge, we can then make intelligent conversation with him regarding our personal situations.

 

[Maria_Raphael]

I am in a similar situation (Southern Baptist converting to Catholicism). The people running our RCIA program were not sure if my baptism was valid in the eyes of the Church and I wasn’t sure if the records still existed, as I was baptized over 30 years ago. My old church had left the Southern Baptist Convention back in the 1980s, so I wasn’t sure if my records stayed with the original congregation or went with the congregation that decided to stay Southern Baptist and split off to form another church.

Fortunately, when I contacted my old church, they were very polite and understanding and were able to find a record of the baptism. The current pastor sent a letter, which was accepted as sufficient proof. If that had not happened, I was told a letter from my mother (who witnessed the baptism) would do as well, so long as the Church was assured that the Baptism had used the Trinitarian formula.

Don’t be afraid to contact your old pastor! He might not be happy about the fact that you’re converting, but conversion happens often enough that most clergy are civil about it.

Good luck to you in getting this resolved.

 

[puzzleannie]

Thanks for the replies. My husband and I will speak with our priest about this.

Puzzleannie - I asked because the witnesses in my question are NOT Catholic. The other thread was a witness who was a Catholic nurse who had baptised the infant in question…not a non-Catholic witness. I wasn’t sure if the same rules applied for non-Catholic witnesses. Most of us in RCIA, from what I have seen on this forum, ask questions here because we feel more comfortable asking questions here than bothering the priest with minutiae. Armed with such general knowledge, we can then make intelligent conversation with him regarding our personal situations.

yes as was stated several times, any witness who was old enough at the time to understand and remembers what happened can attest to the baptism. naturally, if the person is not Catholic, it is quite likely the witness will also be a non-Catholic, and yes their testimony is enough. Please put your mind at rest and have another conversation with your priest about it, as it seems no matter how hard we try to help here, we cannot understand the underlying questions have, esp. when they give insufficient info in their initial post. that is why a general answer here is going to be of limited help to a specific individual in a specific situation.

 

[jmcrae]

Don’t be afraid to contact your old pastor! He might not be happy about the fact that you’re converting, but conversion happens often enough that most clergy are civil about it.

He also doesn’t have to know that you are converting.

People request their Baptismal records for any number of reasons. All you need to tell him is that you have an interest in obtaining a copy of your Baptismal record to keep on file at home as a remembrance.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Well, if the witnesses can confirm that you were immersed or the water was poured while the words were being said, that’s usually all that is needed. In your case, if your father lives nearby, perhaps he could talk to your priest as well as putting something in writing.

Of course, the Catholic church accepts the word of a non-Catholic lay witness. The person would just have to describe what was done (and when it took place).

I wonder if anyone videotaped either of the baptisms.

You should be aware that a conditional baptism is done privately. It isn’t a re-baptism. It’s only a sacrament if the original baptism was invalid for some reason, no possibility of sacrilege.