Another dissenting progressive homily

[Spiller]

Any priest who says ill of the Church before Vatican II cannot be considered Catholic.

What the heck does that even mean?

 

[LRThunder]

Yeah, but they make comments like "T"raditional Catholics as if they were some sort of separate group. They discuss doing away with the OF in favor of the EF or how screwed-up the “post Vatican II Church” is.

I don’t know any Catholic groups that demand married priests or same-sex marriages – although married priests are certainly possible on a wider scale.

In the end, the "T"raditional Catholics seems to be just as dissenting as those they attack.

There are Catholic groups, or groups claiming to be Catholic that called for married priests, etc. A Call to Action is one such group. They are no more Catholic than any group that blasts Vatican II or the OF as heresy. It’s just a different way of severing oneself from the Church.

“Traditional Catholics” who discuss doing away with the OF are either not in communion with the Church or walking close to that line. I think most Traditional Catholics would recognize the OF as valid, just wishing for more reverence.

 

[sphilomena]

This is way over the line. You equate those who love the TLM and other traditions of the Church, with those who are not in communion with Rome. That is insulting. I would love to attend the TLM that I grew up with, but can’t. I love the traditions of the Church that often have been discarded - novenas, rosary, devotion to the saints and the Blessed Mother… So I consider myself very traditional, attend the daily NO, and am absolutely loyal to Holy Mother Church. Please correct your terminology!

 

[LRThunder]

This is way over the line. You equate those who love the TLM and other traditions of the Church, with those who are not in communion with Rome. That is insulting. I would love to attend the TLM that I grew up with, but can’t. I love the traditions of the Church that often have been discarded - novenas, rosary, devotion to the saints and the Blessed Mother… So I consider myself very traditional, attend the daily NO, and am absolutely loyal to Holy Mother Church. Please correct your terminology!

And that’s the problem. We hear all the time about how those who like the TLM tend to have an attitude “problem,” yet many of those who say that tend to sneer on the TLM and their comments are nothing more than veiled insults. Maybe they should practice what they believe in. If they don’t like the TLM, that’s their right, but they don’t have the right to sneer or insult others who might like it.

 

[Spiller]

There are Catholic groups, or groups claiming to be Catholic that called for married priests, etc. A Call to Action is one such group. They are no more Catholic than any group that blasts Vatican II or the OF as heresy. It’s just a different way of severing oneself from the Church.

Married priests is certainly a possibility. That said, I agree with you – one can dissent from either end of the Church. One is not immune because they feel they are “traditional.”

“Traditional Catholics” who discuss doing away with the OF are either not in communion with the Church or walking close to that line. I think most Traditional Catholics would recognize the OF as valid, just wishing for more reverence.

OK. LOTTA “Traditional” Catholics seem to spend an awful big amount of time talk about seeing the end of the OF though. WE actually have a thread on it right now.

 

[CradleCath]

I’m not sure about the forum’s rules about naming names, so I won’t do so for now. Suffice to say, this is an excerpt from a homily given on Good Shepherd Sunday in a parish in Illinois.
Let me close with a reference to an article by [Fr.] Richard McBrien. Richard McBrien wrote an article on “Good Shepherd Sunday”, and he said, you know, whenever we hear reference to shepherding, we sometimes connect that with bishops, and bishops sometimes like to refer themselves as shepherds. And McBrien says in recent years, it almost seems like they like to retrieve this notion of: I am shepherd – smart leader; and you are sheep: dumb, keep your mouths shut and do what you’re told.

McBrien says in his article, that is the least kind of shepherding that people want, and sometimes it is the leaders of the Church themselves that are the lost sheep in need of shepherding by the People of God. McBrien goes on to say the shepherd that people want is not anyone shepherding with a pre-Vatican II theology or praxis, the shepherd that people want is Jesus Christ. And people want leaders and relationships that will lead them to the experience of the Good Shepherd, yes. Not just bishops, but people can manifest through the way they treat other people, the Good Shepherd; we can find the Good Shepherd by being shepherded well by other people.
Jesus had a pre-Vatican II theology and praxis, but I suppose that’s not the point here.

This homily was given the week of the Pope’s visit. This is not the first time this priest has given a homily denigrating the Church before Vatican II. Sigh.

I take nothing that Richard “is the camera rolling” McBrien says seriously. He’s the darling of the liberal media…whose biggest claim to fame is that when they are anti-Catholic, they’re ususally subtle about it.

Have you heard the latest gossip (&, at this point that’s all it is, because I haven’t researched it yet) McBrien has been accused of plaigerism:

Here’s a snippet from the original McNamara column that appeared in the Boston Glove. It pertained to a Catholic Charities dinner that featured pro-abortion major Thomas Menino as the “headliner” :nope:

"They are a tiny band of antiabortion zealots….These folks do not just miss the Latin Mass; they miss Cardinal Bernard Law….There’s Bill Cotter, pining for the good old days when Law would allow Operation Rescue to use Catholic churches as staging areas for illegal blockades of abortion clinics.”

Now from Father McBrien’s column, which wasn’t quite so original:

“These ultra-conservative activists, for whom abortion is the only moral and political issue that counts, not only miss the Latin Mass but also the former archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Bernard Law, who allowed Operation Rescue, a militant anti-abortion organization, to use Catholic churches as staging areas of illegal blockades of abortion clinics.”

They’re talking about us Traditional Catholic here & I’ve NEVER met one for whom “abortion is the only moral issue involved in
the upcoming election” While I
believe that it is the most important, we also have the war in Iraq, poverty & hunger, drugs, crime, gay “marriage”, etc., etc. to consider.

 

[Spiller]

This is way over the line. You equate those who love the TLM and other traditions of the Church, with those who are not in communion with Rome. That is insulting. I would love to attend the TLM that I grew up with, but can’t. I love the traditions of the Church that often have been discarded - novenas, rosary, devotion to the saints and the Blessed Mother… So I consider myself very traditional, attend the daily NO, and am absolutely loyal to Holy Mother Church. Please correct your terminology!

Please don’t try to speak for me…

Those that consider themselves “Traditional” Catholics ARE often time just as dissenting as those they label “liberal/progressive” Catholics. Just look at some of the horrid things said in this forum, ostensibly in the name of “tradition.”

Novenas, the rosary, devotion to the saints and the Blessed Mother have NOT been discarded nor are their practice limited to “Traditional” Catholics. That’s simply not accurate.

The Church has never defined what a “liberal/progressive” or a “traditional” Catholic is. Too often I see those who refer to themselves as “Traditional” Catholics heap all that in their opinion is bad and blame it on those they label “liberal/progressive.” Then they cherry-pick what they believe they stand for (novenas, the rosary, devotion to the saints and the Blessed Mother, etc.) as if it’s unique to their brand of Catholicism and it’s not.

 

[japhy]

LOTTA “Traditional” Catholics seem to spend an awful big amount of time talk about seeing the end of the OF though. WE actually have a thread on it right now.

I’d like to see the end of the OF and the EF as we know them, to be honest. Both are in need of repair. I don’t mean that in a “break with tradition” way, but in a “the EF needs to be reformed, and the OF needs to be reformed, and they should be reunited” way.

But this is for another thread, certainly.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Isn’t if funny how the Progressive Catholics in the 16th century were Martin Luther and John Calvin.

 

[CradleCath]

This person’s articles are banned by our diocese’s monthly publication. /QUOTE

You must live in a great diocese. It’s not the Lincoln, Ne. diocese is it? Bishop Bruskewitz insisted on orthodocy & I admire him for it.

 

[Cajetan]

Socially I am fairly liberal, politically I am moderate and liturgically I am very orthodox and reverent/solemn which some equate to being “traditional”, which is often a misnomer.

What do you mean by “socially liberal” in your case? How so?

When I said “orthodox” before, by the way, I wasn’t referring to liturgy. I, as is the case with most Catholics when discussing “orthodoxy,” was talking about theology. Are you theologically orthodox? In other words, do you give assent to what the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals (orthodoxy), or do your socially liberal beliefs sometimes conflict with what the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals (heterodoxy)? Let’s stop tip-toeing around the issue, Spiller. Make like your name and spill it.

Some of the most dissenting Catholics I know would lebel themselves as being “traditional.”

Same here. That shouldn’t be a controversial statement. Lots of dissenting Catholics label themselves “traditional.” The SSPX comes to mind.

 

[Spiller]

Just trying to follow your reasoning here, are you claiming those who self identify as Traditional would say St. Vincent de Paul society and other Catholic groups are “liberal”?

There is absolutely no question that groups like St. Vincent de Paul, Catholic Charities and other such groups are VERY socially progressive…

The Catholic Church has historically been socially and politically quite liberal – particularly in the USA. That’s why I get a chuckle when I hear a hardcore political conservative claim to be “traditional” – it just doesn’t track with respect to the history of the Church.

 

[Spiller]

What do you mean by “socially liberal” in your case? How so?

When I said “orthodox” before, by the way, I wasn’t referring to liturgy. I, as is the case with most Catholics when discussing “orthodoxy,” was talking about theology. Are you theologically orthodox? In other words, do you give assent to what the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals (orthodoxy), or do your socially liberal beliefs sometimes conflict with what the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals (heterodoxy)? Let’s stop tip-toeing around the issue, Spiller. Make like your name and spill it.

I follow the Church. I eschew those things the Church does not teach, direct or allow – even those things I personally wish she would. I see great dissent from what the Church teaches, directs and/or allows from both extremes of the Church.

Let me give you a prime example. Church says to stand/bow to receive communion in the OF. I always preferred to genuflect and if the setting allowed, to receive while kneeling but I sucked it up and follow what the Church directs.

Others chose to ignore and complain – which I found out of line, and quite dissenting. Church then says you are not to be denied communion, but you should receive counseling off-line about the importance of following the Church. Said complainers took this as license to kneel for as long as their egos tell them to – forget the directed counseling. Ask them about it and they’ll give you their interpretation of yet another document their complaining caused. This is the very sort of behavior “traditionalists” abhor in those they label “liberals/progressives” – forced change through abuse, yet when it follows THEIR opinion of what is “good” or “better”, all bets are off. Utter hypocrisy.

I simply follow the Church.

Same here. That shouldn’t be a controversial statement. Lots of dissenting Catholics label themselves “traditional.” The SSPX comes to mind.

Catholics from just about any sector can and are dissenters…

 

[Cajetan]

The Catholic Church has historically been socially and politically quite liberal – particularly in the USA. That’s why I get a chuckle when I hear a hardcore political conservative claim to be “traditional” – it just doesn’t track with respect to the history of the Church.

It all depends on what’s going on in the secular culture. At one time in the U.S. the slavery of negroes was allowed and practiced, and any Catholic who vigorously opposed this law/practice probably was taking the “socially liberal” position. Likewise with alcohol prohibition.

These social/political tags are ultimately flimsy; their definitions change with the times and views of the secular culture. At one time in the West a “liberal” meant anyone who preferred democracy to monarchy.

 

[EasterJoy]

Any priest who says ill of the Church before Vatican II cannot be considered Catholic.

In other words, in order to even be considered Catholic, a priest must think Vatican II totally unnecessary (because who would reform that which could not have been improved?) and disbelieve all history of the Church which points to excesses or failings in the Church or her heirarchy, including the times when 17 year olds were being elevated to cardinal.

Either I totally misunderstand you, or you must be joking. Otherwise, it has been awhile since we’ve had a Catholic sitting in the Chair of St. Peter.

 

[holdencaulfield]

In other words, in order to even be considered Catholic, a priest must think Vatican II totally unnecessary (because who would reform that which could not have been improved?) and disbelieve all history of the Church which points to excesses or failings in the Church or her heirarchy, including the times when 17 year olds were being elevated to cardinal.

Either I totally misunderstand you, or you must be joking. Otherwise, it has been awhile since we’ve had a Catholic sitting in the Chair of St. Peter.

No my point was that a Catholic cannot say that the Church was in error and bad before the Second Vatican Council.

 

[CradleCath]

There is absolutely no question that groups like St. Vincent de Paul, Catholic Charities and other such groups are VERY socially progressive…

The Catholic Church has historically been socially and politically quite liberal – particularly in the USA. That’s why I get a chuckle when I hear a hardcore political conservative claim to be “traditional” – it just doesn’t track with respect to the history of the Church.

Yes, it has. The Church has always campaigned for social issues. They have always spoken for the poor, the down-trodden & the disfranchised. Our stance on captital punishment is liberal, as is our stance on war.

HOWEVER, When speaking of personal issues, our stance on artficial contraception & abortion is conservative according to secular society. Our views on practicing homosexuals, on divorce & remarriage, on sex outside of marriage in general…are definintely not 'politically correct" in today’s society…so, I’ll say that we’re niether liberal or conservative…but following the Words & example of Christ. On these personal issues, where do you think that most Catholic liberals stand?

 

[holdencaulfield]

Yes, it has. The Church has always campaigned for social issues. They have always spoken for the poor, the down-trodden & the disfranchised. Our stance on captital punishment is liberal, as is our stance on war.

HOWEVER, When speaking of personal issues, our stance on artficial contraception & abortion is conservative according to secular society. Our views on practicing homosexuals, on divorce & remarriage, on sex outside of marriage in general…are definintely not 'politically correct" in today’s society…so, I’ll say that we’re niether liberal or conservative…but following the Words & example of Christ. On these personal issues, where do you think that most Catholic liberals stand?

The Catholic Church truly is the most Conservative Church there is. In all ways. I don’t care if Pope Benedict XVI doesn’t like the war in Iraq. He has to not like it because he was in the Hitler Youth. I think that the Christian thing to do would be to fight the people who want to kill innocent people. My point is that all things considered the Catholic Church is very very Conservative.

 

[Cajetan]

Yeah, I don’t exactly see many of my liberal friends running to enter the Catholic Church any time soon. A large part of this is because of the Catholic Church’s decidedly “un-liberal” stances on abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage. Most self-described liberals I know are repulsed by this position, which they deem to be “ultra-conservative.” If they were going to enter any church, they would go with one which has so-called “liberal” stances on these hot-button issues, like the Church of England or the United Church here in Canada.

 

[Spiller]

The Catholic Church truly is the most Conservative Church there is. In all ways. I don’t care if Pope Benedict XVI doesn’t like the war in Iraq. He has to not like it because he was in the Hitler Youth. I think that the Christian thing to do would be to fight the people who want to kill innocent people. My point is that all things considered the Catholic Church is very very Conservative.

What?!?!?!?!?! Actually it’s the ONLY CHURCH (Matt 16:18)

I won’t even address the rest of your posting…