Another Eucharist Question

[tmore35]

There are some really good posts here. ByzCath brings up a very good point. It was in the medeival Latin Church where people began to question reality in physical terms. All the talk about substance and accidents for the last 1,000 years has served to confuse rather than clarify the Real Presence. The Apostles and their followers had no trouble understanding this concept because their sense of reality was somewhat different; and the Eastern Churches maintained this understanding.

St. Augustine writes of the Eucharistic bread and wine, “So they are called sacraments because one thing is seen in them and another is understood. What is seen has bodily appearance but what is understood has spiritual fruit.” To the ancients spiritual things were as real as physical things. Symbols assumed a reality of their own, and what was accepted as truth was in fact true.

If we believe in the Incarnation with all our heart and soul, without question, or reservation, we can extend that faith to bolster our understanding of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. God Himself held up a piece of bread and a cup of wine and said, “This is my Body, this is my Blood.” It is true because He said so, and God never lies to us.

That is an explanation that even first communicants understand. We name things to give them identity. Bread and wine are simply bread and wine. But, consecrated bread and wine have gone through a process, a ritual, proscribed by God Himself. They assume a different identity. Again, it is because He said so and He does not lie to us. It is the ritual, guided by the Holy Spirit, which brings about the transformation. The bread and wine is now something else. On the outside it seems the same, but on the inside it is very different; because God said so, and God will never lie to us.

It is really so simple. Forget about transubstantiation–a very long word that tells us very little. All you have to know is that it is true because He said so, and He has never lied to us.

Pax et Bonum!

 

[Michael_Howard]

RomanRyan1088:

The bread and the wine still looks like bread and wine even AFTER it has been changed, so how does the church explain this, I have read many books, but I end up more confused than what I already am.

I think that’s a fair question. I guess I would equate that with your own nature (considering you’re a baptized believer). When you become a “New creation in Christ” does God physically change the way you look? In other words, if your body were to be placed under a microscope would the Spirit of God be detected? Probably not. Because what God transforms is not your physical body, but your nature right? This cannot be seen under any microscope no matter how good. When the Church states that the bread and the wine are ***transformed ***into the body, blood, soul and divinty of Christ under the “appearence” of bread and wine, it is no longer bread and wine because the old nature of the thing itself no longer exists, am I kind of making sense? The new nature is Christ under the appearence of bread and wine…

---

Hope this helps a little. God bless

 

[seeker63]

I think part of it is that when I attend Mass (I obviously can’t partake of the Eucharist yet), I feel differing levels of emotion, but I have yet to feel the excitement during the Eucharist that I think I would if I really thought Christ was there in the flesh. I think I’d probably be beside myself.

Another problem is that since childhood I’ve always felt, or thought I felt, the presence of God in church anyway, so I’m not entirely sure what I’m expecting to feel on top of that.

Does any of that make any sense?

 

[whit]

RomanRyan1088:

The bread and the wine still looks like bread and wine even AFTER it has been changed, so how does the church explain this, I have read many books, but I end up more confused than what I already am.

Because at the Last Supper, the first consecration of bread and wine into Christ’s Body and Blood, Christ Himself said “this IS my Body” (He was holding what looked like bread in His hand) and “this IS my Blood” while He passed around a cup of what looked and tasted like wine. He had changed the bread and wine into His Body and Blood and held it in His own hands at the same time. How did He do that? I don’t know. It is a mystery. But He did it. I have faith. I know it is His Body and Blood.

God bless,
Whit

 

[whit]

seeker63:

I think part of it is that when I attend Mass (I obviously can’t partake of the Eucharist yet), I feel differing levels of emotion, but I have yet to feel the excitement during the Eucharist that I think I would if I really thought Christ was there in the flesh. I think I’d probably be beside myself.

Another problem is that since childhood I’ve always felt, or thought I felt, the presence of God in church anyway, so I’m not entirely sure what I’m expecting to feel on top of that.

Does any of that make any sense?

Yes it does. And all you have to remember is the Agnus Dei. “This is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world…” biecause it is.

God bless,
Whit

 

[Michael_Howard]

I think St. Ambrose sumes it up well when he states:

And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205
Mary concieved without sin pray for us

 

[seeker63]

Whit and Michael,

Theological justifications aren’t really driving it home for me.
The problem is one of feeling and belief, and neither seem to be working or helping me “get it.” 2000 years of theological writing and tradition have not really done anything at all for me. And my RCIA starts soon.

It’s taken weeks to even figure out what exactly the Church means about “substance” and “accidents.” All that has just confused matters. The language various sources use just seems murky. But now I think I know what the Church says happens, but I’ve not been able to believe it yet. Even quoting Christ or a Pope or the Liturgy doesn’t really help me in this.

I mean, if you don’t believe in the Real Presence, why bother even becoming Catholic? That’s like saying you love the Super Bowl except for all that football playing that goes on.

I’ve been praying about it. I want to believe it. I’m just not. Like I said, I’m waiting for some kind of feeling that just isn’t happening. And the explanations that work for everybody else don’t seem to work for me for some reason.

 

[JimG]

Continue to pray about it. And continue with RCIA. You don’t have to believe everything the Church believes just to start RCIA.

And don’t worry about what you feel.
It isn’t really a matter of feelings. Sometimes you feel nothing.
The point of the Sacraments is that you don’t have to feel it for something to happen. The spiritual reality really takes place whether we feel it or not. In the case of the Eucharist, Jesus becomes present whether we feel it or not. Naturally we can’t see this happen because he is hidden under the appearances of bread and wine.

JimG

 

[diaconate]

This is just my view on it. God is much smarter than us. We wouldn’t eat raw meat and blood. God knows this and in His ifinite wisdom He keeps it looking and tasting like bread and wine but in truth it is the Body and Blood of our Saviour. I have to agree with ByzCath., that it is a mystery and we shouldn’t try to discern every bit of God’s wisdom and Divinity.

Glory be to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

 

[Michael_Howard]

seeker63:

Whit and Michael,

Theological justifications aren’t really driving it home for me.
The problem is one of feeling and belief, and neither seem to be working or helping me “get it.” 2000 years of theological writing and tradition have not really done anything at all for me. And my RCIA starts soon.

It’s taken weeks to even figure out what exactly the Church means about “substance” and “accidents.” All that has just confused matters. The language various sources use just seems murky. But now I think I know what the Church says happens, but I’ve not been able to believe it yet. Even quoting Christ or a Pope or the Liturgy doesn’t really help me in this.

I mean, if you don’t believe in the Real Presence, why bother even becoming Catholic? That’s like saying you love the Super Bowl except for all that football playing that goes on.

I’ve been praying about it. I want to believe it. I’m just not. Like I said, I’m waiting for some kind of feeling that just isn’t happening. And the explanations that work for everybody else don’t seem to work for me for some reason.

I see where you are coming from now seeker. I love your honesty friend, I believe in time God will reward it mightily. God is not honored when we do things we do not believe in. I honestly feel ( and correct me if I am wrong) that we must become intellectually convinced that something is true before we can fall in love with it.

I do know in some occasions this is not true, but I think a majority of the time when someone is convinced it is true in their mind, feelings follow.

And remember to make room for mystery seeker. I am a convert to the faith and one of the things I love most about this church is the fact that they are willing to acknowledge that the body of Christ is mystical and mysterious. How can we ever understand fully how the divine dwells with flesh? Not in this lifetime! But…if you know that Christ is real and His word is true, than all of His promises are good aside from feelings. Anyway,man keep searching with an honest and open heart and you will get there. In the meantime you are in good company here friend.
Blessings

 

[Lonevoice]

Michael Howard:

I see where you are coming from now seeker. I love your honesty friend, I believe in time God will reward it mightily. God is not honored when we do things we do not believe in. I honestly feel ( and correct me if I am wrong) that we must become intellectually convinced that something is true before we can fall in love with it.

I do know in some occasions this is not true, but I think a majority of the time when someone is convinced it is true in their mind, feelings follow.

And remember to make room for mystery seeker. I am a convert to the faith and one of the things I love most about this church is the fact that they are willing to acknowledge that the body of Christ is mystical and mysterious. How can we ever understand fully how the divine dwells with flesh? Not in this lifetime! But…if you know that Christ is real and His word is true, than all of His promises are good aside from feelings. Anyway,man keep searching with an honest and open heart and you will get there. In the meantime you are in good company here friend.

                        Blessings

 

[mark1270]

Seeker63,

I want to back up what the other poster said about RCIA. Go ahead and start the process. You do not have to believe we you start the classes. Part of the process is education and help understanding some of the mysteries of our church. I found the process to be one of the most rewarding of my life.

You may also want to check out this page:
acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html

on the miracle in Lanciano, Italy where the bread and wine, in both substance and accident, became flesh and blood.

 

[Nana_Rose]

seeker63:

Whit and Michael,

Theological justifications aren’t really driving it home for me.
The problem is one of feeling and belief, and neither seem to be working or helping me “get it.” 2000 years of theological writing and tradition have not really done anything at all for me. And my RCIA starts soon.

Dear seeker63,

I know exactly what you mean!! I am a “cradle Catholic” and was embarrassed as an adult to admit I didn’t understand or “feel” that is was Christ Himself there. I started praying to our Lord for Him to reveal to me Truth. If he was truly present in the Eucharist. It has been a slow process…but I started coming across books on Eucharistic Miracles, quite by “accident”. Today I can tell you I firmly believe and sense Him in the Eucharist. I started to weep during the Eucharistic part of the Mass, and especially after receiving. It is stronger at times, and from what my priest tells me that is a gift, although I was embarrassed of it. I believed all the early church fathers, and I believed the Bible…but have only recently begun to “feel” it. So don’t give up! Get into RCIA, pray,pray,pray. Ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you. A friend of mine years ago, a nun, said, “Remember to pray…I believe Lord, help my unbelief”. Ask and you shall receive! Start by believing that for now…the rest will come.

 

[jmm08]

ByzCath:

For me, and this is most likely becuase of the Byzantine spirituality and traditon which I love so much, its a mystery.

Why do we need an answer? Why must we try to shoehorn God into out reasoning?

ByzCath: I like what you say. I learned something from reading Bishop Sheen – which I probably will not do as good a job by explaining in my own words.

To understand something, we bring it down to our level. It is reduced and limited within our understanding.

Instead, when we love something Holy we don’t bring it down. We must release our Hearts and our Spirits to soar beyond our understanding. We will dream with our love. We imagine the best that we can and yet know that it is still far beyond our imagination.

If there is something that is really wrong, it is to try to bring the Holy Eucharist down to our level of understanding.

I hope they don’t mind in the RCIA / RCIC class if I prefer to love the Holy mystery, than to understand man-made technical theology.

 

[Ellen]

The way I’ve come to understand the difference b/t “accidents” and “substance” (and I know, I shouldn’t have to undersand it, but I’m an American, darnit!), is like artifical flavor and coloring. Say you have a fruit snack. It looks, smells and tastes like a strawberry, but there’s not one bit of strawberry in it, it’s completely artificial, made in a lab. God could, if He wanted, turn that fruit snack into a real strawberry, w/o changing the appearance, smell or taste. That’s what happens w/ the Eucharist. The bread and wine may still look, smell and taste like bread and wine, but the Holy Spirit has changed them to the Body and Blood of Christ. The way it happens is a miracle, but that’s how I’ve come to understand for myself the outcome.

Hope that helped some.

 

[austine57]

Excellent points… thanks to all who help me to understand. I am so thankful to these forums where I can get all my questions (that must seem so silly to many of you) answered and yet I’m never made to feel stupid for asking. God Bless you all.

Thank you for having the patience to take in all the wonderful answers. Please allow me to make three comments:

1. Wonderful things are revealed to mere babes but hidden from wise men.
2. John 6 is such a wonderful and insightful part of the gospel. Christ spend much time talking about his body. When some grumbled and were leaving He never said " Hi guys, I was only joking, I was just being figurative".
3. Belief in the real presence is as old as Christianity as the one of the complaints of the Romans against Christians was that they were cannibals, probably based on their belief in the real presence.
   May you grow and prosper in the faith. Amen
   Austine