Another family vs gay marriage thread

[Mrs_Sally]

I agree you should talk to your priest. However if you stay behind with mil and kiddies and wife and fil make the trip that sounds like a perfectly logical plan that might happen for any wedding or out of town event.

You will of course be polite to the cousin and the woman when you meet them, even if you never invite them to stay together at your house overnight.

 

[on_the_hill]

I agree you should talk to your priest. However if you stay behind with mil and kiddies and wife and fil make the trip that sounds like a perfectly logical plan that might happen for any wedding or out of town event.

I meant to today after Mass, but he had a commitment and wasn’t available.

You will of course be polite to the cousin and the woman when you meet them, even if you never invite them to stay together at your house overnight.

Of course. If I ever meet them. I haven’t seen the cousin in over ten years, and have never met the partner.

There’s more back story that might be influencing my wife’s decision. Her aunt (the cousin’s deceased mother) married a divorced Protestant when my wife was young. She remembers my MIL’s refusal to attend the wedding, and she remembers her aunt sobbing over it. For all I know, it was that Divorced Protestant/Catholic marriage that drove the aunt from the Church. So it may be that my wife doesn’t want to repeat that ugly, hurtful situation.

When I heard that my MIL had refused to attend the aunt’s wedding, I thought she had been unreasonable. As a child, I attended more than one Protestant wedding and no one *ever *mentioned that we, as Catholics, shouldn’t have attended.

Now that the shoe’s on the other foot, I’m left wondering. Am I now the one being unreasonable? Where’s the line between holding the line, and reaching across the line?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

ARGH!!! I typed a long post about gay marriage and it’s gone!!

Redux: My wife’s lesbian cousin is engaged to be married. She is in her late-20s.

My mother-in-law refuses to attend the ceremony.

My father-in-law says he will attend because their niece was never Catholic and is free to follow her conscience.

My wife says she’ll attend because it’s better to keep the family together, show an example of caring, loving, compassionate Catholics, and pray for her cousin’s conversion.

I say I can go my whole life without ever having witnessed a gay marriage and be completely happy. For me, it’s not particularly a question about religion. It’s just so foreign that I don’t want to have anything to do with it.

The niece/cousin lost her parents several years ago, one in a bizarre accident, and the other to cancer several months afterward. My in-laws have been her long distance surrogate parents since then. The cousin lives about 500 miles away.

Thought? We’re going to ask our priest. We think he’ll tell us to follow our consciences, and pray for the cousin. He might even tell us to attend the ceremony to help keep the family together, and pray. Regardless of what he says, I don’t want to go.

In my adult, mature view of this, it’s yucky.

Say that you need to stay home and take care of the kids, this is a perfectly valid reason and is inoffensive

All I can say is what I would or would not do. I would NOT attend and if anyone asked why, I WOULD tell them.

They may be upset, but then I would ask why they were trying to force their views on me. Turn the situation around on them.

But, I have never been politically sensitive.

I have faced similar situations with my wife on different matters and my response usually is, “I’m the one who has to look at my face in the mirror everyday.”

And what would you tell them?

 

[EasterJoy]

…There’s more back story that might be influencing my wife’s decision. Her aunt (the cousin’s deceased mother) married a divorced Protestant when my wife was young. She remembers my MIL’s refusal to attend the wedding, and she remembers her aunt sobbing over it. For all I know, it was that Divorced Protestant/Catholic marriage that drove the aunt from the Church. So it may be that my wife doesn’t want to repeat that ugly, hurtful situation.

When I heard that my MIL had refused to attend the aunt’s wedding, I thought she had been unreasonable. As a child, I attended more than one Protestant wedding and no one *ever *mentioned that we, as Catholics, shouldn’t have attended.

Now that the shoe’s on the other foot, I’m left wondering. Am I now the one being unreasonable? Where’s the line between holding the line, and reaching across the line?

If a Catholic decides to marry outside the Church because it isn’t lawful for the Catholic to marry in the Church, it is a bit hard to blame someone else when that Catholic takes the whole jump and leaves the Church entirely. If the mother had refused to go to her daughter’s wedding because it couldn’t be shown there was no bigamy being committed in the civil sense on the part of the groom, would you fault her for that? If the couple moved to a country where polygamy was permitted under civil law, would you say the laws of their home country had “driven” them there, and that their country’s laws were therefore “hurtful” or “ugly”? What is the difference? It is unfortunate you’re in the spot you’re in, but that doesn’t mean you are at fault for the situation.

The line is when you are being asked to give tacit approval not just to that of which you disapprove, but that which is objectively unlawful. To a Catholic, the marriage of two persons of the same sex is objectively in violation of natural law. I am not saying that you couldn’t also be right when your relative decides to marry a total jerk that is doing her wrong by your opinion only and you refuse to have a thing to do with it. I’m just saying that this is about more than your personal repugnance for a particular union.

 

[punisherthunder]

I have a Sodomite cousin in the same situation.

He and his b/f feel the need to go to these gay male strip clubs and are sexually overactive with different male partners.

Don’t go.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

You are right to not want to go. It is true that there is not always a black and white answer to “should I attend this wedding” and that depending on the circumstances, or on the priest giving counsel, one might be advised to go to an invalid wedding for the sake of keeping the peace and maintaining relationships, in the hopes that this will allow the person to continue to be a witness to the faith. But in general you hear this about male-female weddings. These may be invalid, but often there is a chance that they could be valid, and of course the union of the two is only disordered because of a specific impediment. In the case of a same sex union, the union itself is by its very nature, disordered, and can never be made right by removing an impediment. So to witness to this sort of an attempt at marriage would be much more problematic. Aside from the morality of attending, it raises a number of practical difficulties. First, what could you possibly say to the brides, or the other guests, after the reception that would neither be rude, nor sinful? You can’t congratulate them. You can’t agree with the people you are sitting with that they are a beautiful couple and you’re so happy they’re together (aren’t these the sorts of things that get discussed at weddings). And that event certainly wouldn’t be the time for you to speak candidly about your opinion. In the future, let’s say the couple comes for a visit. If you’ve already given your approval by attending their wedding, how would you handle visits and sleeping arrangements? Let them sleep as though married and confuse your children? Or require something different even though you already acted as though you approved? Attending the wedding really doesn’t make things easier in the long run, and think you and your mil are right to stay away.

This question has been asked of the apologists here a few times. Here are a couple of the answers:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277662
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=32445

 

[HouseArrest]

I meant to today after Mass, but he had a commitment and wasn’t available.

Of course. If I ever meet them. I haven’t seen the cousin in over ten years, and have never met the partner.

There’s more back story that might be influencing my wife’s decision. Her aunt (the cousin’s deceased mother) married a divorced Protestant when my wife was young. She remembers my MIL’s refusal to attend the wedding, and she remembers her aunt sobbing over it. For all I know, it was that Divorced Protestant/Catholic marriage that drove the aunt from the Church. So it may be that my wife doesn’t want to repeat that ugly, hurtful situation.

When I heard that my MIL had refused to attend the aunt’s wedding, I thought she had been unreasonable. As a child, I attended more than one Protestant wedding and no one *ever *mentioned that we, as Catholics, shouldn’t have attended.

Now that the shoe’s on the other foot, I’m left wondering. Am I now the one being unreasonable? Where’s the line between holding the line, and reaching across the line?

Are you suggesting it was the divorced Protestant/Catholic marriage that drove her out, or the refusal to attend that drove her out? I can’t imagine blaming your MIL for your aunt leaving the church, since the aunt already had one foot out the door for going through the wedding to begin with.

Maybe I’m reading this wrong?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I have a Sodomite cousin in the same situation.

He and his b/f feel the need to go to these gay male strip clubs and are sexually overactive with different male partners.

Don’t go.

Going to strip clubs is sadly quite common amongst all young people and lets not even get into the vulgar behavior.

You are right to not want to go. It is true that there is not always a black and white answer to “should I attend this wedding” and that depending on the circumstances, or on the priest giving counsel, one might be advised to go to an invalid wedding for the sake of keeping the peace and maintaining relationships, in the hopes that this will allow the person to continue to be a witness to the faith. But in general you hear this about male-female weddings. These may be invalid, but often there is a chance that they could be valid, and of course the union of the two is only disordered because of a specific impediment. In the case of a same sex union, the union itself is by its very nature, disordered, and can never be made right by removing an impediment. So to witness to this sort of an attempt at marriage would be much more problematic. Aside from the morality of attending, it raises a number of practical difficulties. First, what could you possibly say to the brides, or the other guests, after the reception that would neither be rude, nor sinful? You can’t congratulate them. You can’t agree with the people you are sitting with that they are a beautiful couple and you’re so happy they’re together (aren’t these the sorts of things that get discussed at weddings). And that event certainly wouldn’t be the time for you to speak candidly about your opinion. In the future, let’s say the couple comes for a visit. If you’ve already given your approval by attending their wedding, how would you handle visits and sleeping arrangements? Let them sleep as though married and confuse your children? Or require something different even though you already acted as though you approved? Attending the wedding really doesn’t make things easier in the long run, and think you and your mil are right to stay away.

This question has been asked of the apologists here a few times. Here are a couple of the answers:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=277662
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=32445

Is wishing them all the best really condoning it? How about love and truth shining in their relationship?

 

[EasterJoy]

Is wishing them all the best really condoning it? How about love and truth shining in their relationship?

When I put it in the context of other situations, such as a couple who abandoned their spouses and children to cohabitate who finally decide to marry each other or a couple happily welcoming a third party in order to form a polygamous relationship, I can’t envision myself “wishing them the best.” It would be a difficult situation, particularly if I found them to be praiseworthy and even beyond me in all other moral respects, but I’d really find myself having to say, “Please don’t. Don’t do this.”

When I put any other objectively unlawful marriage in the place of this one, as opposed to a marriage that I just happen to think is ill-advised, I would unfortunately be put into the position of saying, “I am sorry, but I can’t be a part of this.” I would hope I could do it without giving the idea that I condemned them as persons, but I would be forced to do that. It is something that I have thought of, because I have relatives that I have reason to believe might consider something like this.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

When I put it in the context of other situations, such as a couple who abandoned their spouses and children to cohabitate who finally decide to marry each other or a couple happily welcoming a third party in order to form a polygamous relationship, I can’t envision myself “wishing them the best.” It would be a difficult situation, particularly if I found them to be praiseworthy and even beyond me in all other moral respects, but I’d really find myself having to say, “Please don’t. Don’t do this.”

When I put any other objectively unlawful marriage in the place of this one, as opposed to a marriage that I just happen to think is ill-advised, I would unfortunately be put into the position of saying, “I am sorry, but I can’t be a part of this.” I would hope I could do it without giving the idea that I condemned them as persons, but I would be forced to do that. It is something that I have thought of, because I have relatives that I have reason to believe might consider something like this.

Wishing two people all the best≠wishing their marriage all the best

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Is wishing them all the best really condoning it?

The statement “I wish the best for you” is certainly something any Christian ought to be able to say to any person at any time. In fact, I have actually used that exact phrase in the context of a wedding that I didn’t approve of. When my dh and I told his cousin that we could not attend her invalid wedding, we also said, “we love you and wish the best for you.” Of course, this took place months before the wedding, in private, and it was clear that we were not condoning the wedding. However, the fact is that if you are standing in front of a just “married” couple and you hug them, and smile, and happily say, “I wish you the best!” you are giving them the impression that you approve, and you are not really being honest about what you mean. I can’t imagine using that tone (loving, but stating disapproval) at the actual wedding - there is a time and place, after all. And let’s face it, if you sit at the dinner table at the reception and answer every comment from a fellow guest with “I wish the best for them,” it will either be obvious that you don’t approve, or you will come off as crazy. It will simply be extremely difficult to follow proper etiquette AND also not lie or create the scandal of approval.

 

[EasterJoy]

-]/-]

Wishing two people all the best≠wishing their marriage all the best

Outside the context of their wedding, possibly, particularly if by “you” there isn’t the implication that you mean “your romance.”

If you say you wish a couple the best while you are at their unlawful wedding and at the same time actually hope they repent and amend themselves by renouncing their sex life together, that is just a bald-faced, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back lie, right to their faces…heterosexual or homosexual, that is just conflict-avoiding duplicity.

 

[EasterJoy]

The statement “I wish the best for you” is certainly something any Christian ought to be able to say to any person at any time…

Meaning “in any case where the timing does not indicate approval for a wrong course of action.”

Our Lord did not say to Judas, “I wish the best for you,” as Judas left the Last Supper. You wouldn’t say to people setting off to make a huge mistake “I wish the best for you.” Maybe “do what you have decided to do, I love you but I can’t stop you” but not “I wish you all the best.”

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

-]/-]

Outside the context of their wedding, possibly, particularly if by “you” there isn’t the implication that you mean “your romance.”

If you say you wish a couple the best while you are at their unlawful wedding and at the same time actually hope they repent and amend themselves by renouncing their sex life together, that is just a bald-faced, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back lie, right to their faces…heterosexual or homosexual, that is just conflict-avoiding duplicity.

True or false different people can have different perspectives in what is best in life? Is it incorrect to wish someone the best when the best in your opinion is them loving each other living more perfectly?

 

[LisaB]

Oh my goodness. Of course you shouldn’t go to this “wedding,” it’s not a real wedding. Your attendance there will imply your approval of the situation. It looks like you already received a lot of advice on here. The only thing I wanted to add is, search the Ask the Apologist forum for this topic. This question was answered there many times.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Meaning “in any case where the timing does not indicate approval for a wrong course of action.”

Our Lord did not say to Judas, “I wish the best for you,” as Judas left the Last Supper. You wouldn’t say to people setting off to make a huge mistake “I wish the best for you.” Maybe “do what you have decided to do, I love you but I can’t stop you” but not “I wish you all the best.”

No. “I wish the best for you” means that I hope that you end up with the best possible scenario in life, which means that you have a holy life and go to heaven. What is “the best” other than heaven? That is what I mean by wishing for the best. But your point is the reason why you can’t just say that phrase at a fake wedding and pretend like you weren’t just dishonest.

 

[EasterJoy]

No. “I wish the best for you” means that I hope that you end up with the best possible scenario in life, which means that you have a holy life and go to heaven. What is “the best” other than heaven? That is what I mean by wishing for the best. But your point is the reason why you can’t just say that phrase at a fake wedding and pretend like you weren’t just dishonest.

Yes. I’m not saying I’d never say “I wish the best for you” to someone because they were in some irregular situation or other. I’m saying that instead of going to a wedding I believed to be wrong from an objective standpoint–not just a bad gamble but truly wrong–and going through the polite motions that imply any tacit approval, I’d decline the invitation. It could get me into some trouble, but I don’t see the alternative is viable.

True or false different people can have different perspectives in what is best in life? Is it incorrect to wish someone the best when the best in your opinion is them loving each other living more perfectly?

I’m saying that if someone is throwing a party because that someone is launching a venture, I would feel it was duplicitous to say, “I wish you the best” when what I meant by “the best” was for the whole goal of the venture to be abandoned entirely, with as little damage as possible, and as soon as possible. I think if the person receiving the wish could read my mind, they’d have reason to be upset with me over the false double meaning in my wish.

For instance, if I left the Church so I could marry a Catholic priest who wanted to become Anglican just so he could marry me, a priest who was still bound by vow to celibacy, I’d not expect anybody in my family to either attend or to wish us “the best”. I’d understand I was casting out into waters onto which they simply would not sail or want me to sail.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Yes. I’m not saying I’d never say “I wish the best for you” to someone because they were in some irregular situation or other. I’m saying that instead of going to a wedding I believed to be wrong from an objective standpoint–not just a bad gamble but truly wrong–and going through the polite motions that imply any tacit approval, I’d decline the invitation. It could get me into some trouble, but I don’t see the alternative is viable.

I’m saying that if someone is throwing a party because that someone is launching a venture, I would feel it was duplicitous to say, “I wish you the best” when what I meant by “the best” was for the whole goal of the venture to be abandoned entirely, with as little damage as possible, and as soon as possible. I think if the person receiving the wish could read my mind, they’d have reason to be upset with me over the false double meaning in my wish.

For instance, if I left the Church so I could marry a Catholic priest who wanted to become Anglican just so he could marry me, a priest who was still bound by vow to celibacy, I’d not expect anybody in my family to either attend or to wish us “the best”. I’d understand I was casting out into waters onto which they simply would not sail or want me to sail.

Is it really duplicitous to wish someone’s relationship the best at an event celebrating their relationship?

 

[EasterJoy]

Is it really duplicitous to wish someone’s relationship the best at an event celebrating their relationship?

Remember: We are not talking about a relationship that I personally believe is a bad idea or an unwise step. We’re not talking about micromanaging what is legitimately someone else’s choice. We are talking about a relationship that is objectively in violation of natural law. Why would wishing durability or contentment onto an enterprise that is objectively wrong be a good thing? Why is this different with a sexual relationship than it would be with some other undertaking?

As I said: If there is a party celebrating the launch of an enterprise, whether a marriage or some other kind, and someone is invited who believes the enterprise to be inherently wrong–again, not a bad idea or a terrible risk or “wrongheaded” in some other sense, but something that is wrong–it is better for that those who are invited who can see this decline to attend the celebration.

I would not expect someone to attend my wedding if witnessing my marriage violated their conscience. Would you? I don’t mean ostracizing the people doing this. I mean refraining from celebrating that they are doing it. There is a difference.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Remember: We are not talking about a relationship that I personally believe is a bad idea or an unwise step. We’re not talking about micromanaging what is legitimately someone else’s choice. We are talking about a relationship that is objectively in violation of natural law. Why would wishing durability or contentment onto an enterprise that is objectively wrong be a good thing? Why is this different with a sexual relationship than it would be with some other undertaking?

As I said: If there is a party celebrating the launch of an enterprise, whether a marriage or some other kind, and someone is invited who believes the enterprise to be inherently wrong–again, not a bad idea or a terrible risk or “wrongheaded” in some other sense, but something that is wrong–it is better for that those who are invited who can see this decline to attend the celebration.

I would not expect someone to attend my wedding if witnessing my marriage violated their conscience. Would you? I don’t mean ostracizing the people doing this. I mean refraining from celebrating that they are doing it. There is a difference.

The sexual component is sinful, but the relationship itself is not sinful per se.