Another frustrated soul regarding Vatican 2

[latinmasslover]

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I was to a Catholic church in Rapid City, SD and could NOT FIND the tabernacle. I finally found it in a room off by itself and out of the way. I felt like I was in a protestant church and couldn’t find Jesus.
I questioned the young priest there and was told that the Vatican, thought that it would be better for us if we were not “distracted” by the tabernacle when the priest was consecrating the bread and wine.
I told the priest that that was the stupidest thing that I had ever heard. How can you possibility be distracted by the tabernacle and if the tabernacle is not in the main body of the church why would any one go there in the first place. You could just as well be in one of the big auditoriums that the “happy clappy” non-denominationals use.

I found the book The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy interesting and it answered some questions for me.
Just my 2 cents worth.
JeanneH

My priest told me it was because V-2 wanted to focus more on the community. When I said “focusing more on the community and less on Christ” he said “No, that’s not what happens” and changed the subject.

 

[latinmasslover]

Someone is telling me that Vatican 2 watered down the Church dramaticly. She was even saying that the Catecism has changed, and that in the old one it specificially stated that a Catholic CANNOT marry a Protestant. She also claims that the “true” church taught that Vienal sins MUST be spoken to a priest, that at communion we MUST be on our knees and cannot touch the wafer (which makes absolutley NO sense what so ever to me, the apsostles would have most likely held it themselves at the last supper and by openeing up your hand instead of just your mouth, your are implying: “please give me the life of Christ.”), and that the Table of the Lord has been moved to the side instead of in the center.

Now, are there any answers to these accusations?

Also, to me, this is why I think many people shun away from the church, arguing over such ridiculos things as this. To me, TRUE problems begin when one begins to CHANGE or CORRUPT MORALS or DOCTRINES, NOT rules and regulations. If some Church consel changes the Eucharist to purely symbolic, or that Jesus is not God, or that a priest cannot forgive sins, well THEN I see a problem.

But according to her the church has “changed” the sacraments. But I have yet to get a straight answer from her on that. Only that she says the old Tridentine prayers have changed and the “new” prayers have taking away the sacraments. I have no idea what that means.

Please, nobody read this in a rude manner, I’m just trying to get straight to the point because I don’t have a lot of time at the moment.

First, the issues brought up don’t usually cause people to leave the Church, it’s the horrid implementation that causes people to leave because they see no difference between Mass and a Protestant service.

The documents of Vatican 2 do not teach any heresy, and don’t necessarily contradict anything, but they are so ambiguous (and Cardinals in full communion with Rome are quotes as saying this) that it’s easy to misinterpret. In a sense, you could say it watered the Faith down; Catholicism is known to be very precise, and Vatican 2 is not. If you know the Faith, you will interpret V-2 correctly, if you do not, you’re more likely to have some non-Catholic beliefs. The same goes with the new Catechism, it’s not very clear on certain matters and leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation.

You say some of the changes in the Mass are no big deal, why would anybody make a fuss? Well, the changes are a big deal, even when the Mass is said reverently. I don’t have time now to get into the differences, but suffice it to say that Martin Luther made similar changes, as did other Rebels (I dislike the word “Reformer” in their case) and they did this for a reason, for a few actually: to diminish the role of the priest, to emphasize the role of the laity, and to discourage belief in the True Presence. I can get into details later.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Do not use this thread to denigrate any rite of the Church as per forum rules:

No threads are to be started and no discussion within threads to be posted that unfavorably compare the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) and the Novus Ordo Mass (NO/NOM), or any other legitimate rites of the Church. I will immediately remove such threads and close those that stray into discussing this topic.

 

[Brendan]

that at communion we MUST be on our knees and cannot touch the wafer (which makes absolutley NO sense what so ever to me, the apsostles would have most likely held it themselves at the last supper

One thing to keep in mind here is that the Apostles were all Bishops. Bishops have always been allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament, not true for the laity.

So the fact the Apostles did that is not Biblical proof that the practice must or should occur. The Church allows it, as is Her Right. But it must not be held Communion in the Hand is somehow Biblically mandated, or even supported.

 

[The_Catholic]

You say some of the changes in the Mass are no big deal, why would anybody make a fuss? Well, the changes are a big deal, even when the Mass is said reverently. I don’t have time now to get into the differences, but suffice it to say that Martin Luther made similar changes, as did other Rebels (I dislike the word “Reformer” in their case) and they did this for a reason, for a few actually: to diminish the role of the priest, to emphasize the role of the laity, and to discourage belief in the True Presence. I can get into details later.

I’m probaly going to get burned at the stake for saying this, but overall God is found within our hearts, the true believers hearts. Not a building. Ok, don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying this or that doesn’t matter, I’m saying that it seems so many poeple argue, and eventually abandon churches or even Christianity for silly reasons, as if God’s playing a guessing game on who or which way is 100% perfect but if you mess it up, see you, tossed into hell.

In my church, the Tabrenacle is not in the dead center, but off to the side, big whoop! You can still see it. And guess what, I’ve gotten chills during the Holy Eucharist, knowing that Christ was present, even though the tabernacle is off to the side. The priest faces you instead of having his back to you, big whoop! If one prefers the other way, then fine, I don’t care. But certain people just have to start protesting when practices or liturgies change, as if the Church is on its way to eternal hell, hell hell hell!!!

I guess I’m just SO SICK and tired of people arguing over every single jot and tittle, and then selfish pride steps in of course and people get abusive. If doctrines and morals change I can understand that, but if not, then it shouldn’t be a big deal! If people went to Church with humble hearts, prepared to worship God Almighty, and not with scaning judgmental trying to prove and point out every single thing that’s not perfect eyes, there wouldn’t be such a problem.

When I was a protestant, though that Church didn’t teach the truth as I see the truth now, still, it was a beautiful church filled with a people who were like a family. Always concerned, always gathered together after service for fellowship, etc. It was a family, with most possessing clearly the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I have yet to be in a Catholic Church like that. My parish especialy! But I cannot go back to my Protestant Church, cause I can’t believe what they teach, but if more and more “christians” had hearts like that, well then we wouldn’t have so many problems.

I fear the day religous people can form lighting bolts into their hands

 

[The_Catholic]

One thing to keep in mind here is that the Apostles were all Bishops. Bishops have always been allowed to touch the Blessed Sacrament, not true for the laity.

So the fact the Apostles did that is not Biblical proof that the practice must or should occur. The Church allows it, as is Her Right. But it must not be held Communion in the Hand is somehow Biblically mandated, or even supported.

Good point.

 

[The_Catholic]

I sometimes have a hunch that many people get very into trying to “prove” others or other ways wrong, that they enjoy speaking out against the other “false” believers where God cannot possible be, even if those people live a Christ-like life but do not go under the visible tittle “Catholic” or “Christian.”

But in the end, if there was peace on earth, and everyone knew the absolute Truth of God, and there were no more religons but God Himself, will people love Him and want to be with Him? Or will they get bored and go off on their own now that there is no more mystery or Proving others wrong? It’s almost surperstisious, like the way most protestants are into the end times.

Well, I guess I’m going to get spanked for saying all of this, I’m sorry if I offended anyone.

As for me, I just want to live in peace with God, and long for the day when this is all over. No more tears, no more death, no more violence.

 

[The_Catholic]

.

I was to a Catholic church in Rapid City, SD and could NOT FIND the tabernacle. I finally found it in a room off by itself and out of the way. I felt like I was in a protestant church and couldn’t find Jesus.
I questioned the young priest there and was told that the Vatican, thought that it would be better for us if we were not “distracted” by the tabernacle when the priest was consecrating the bread and wine.
I told the priest that that was the stupidest thing that I had ever heard. How can you possibility be distracted by the tabernacle and if the tabernacle is not in the main body of the church why would any one go there in the first place. You could just as well be in one of the big auditoriums that the “happy clappy” non-denominationals use.

I found the book The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy interesting and it answered some questions for me.
Just my 2 cents worth.
JeanneH

I would be upset if I could not find the Tabrenacle too, but I don’t mind if it’s off to the side of the Church where it’s still visible.

 

[Victor819]

The wafer you are talking about is THE BODY OF CHRIST!
What right do you, a sinner, have, in touching with your hands, THIS, which is HOLY?