Another Gay Thread

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Okay. I know there are 5486465154815316843516516812 threads on here about homosexuality. This is an opinion thread, not a factual one. I am NOT arguing the teachings of the church in this thread.

I am a homosexual striving to live a chaste life. My question is this.

The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
 
You’re totally right - they are both mortal sins. I really don’t know why. There is a bigger social stigma within the Christian community as a whole regarding active homosexual lifestyles, probably because many more people struggle with heterosexual impurity. So they think, “Well, we’re not *that *bad!”

They are equally bad, though. 🤷

I’m glad you are trying to live a chaste life. I know that must not be easy. I’m praying for you. :signofcross:
 
I am a homosexual striving to live a chaste life. My question is this.
The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts?
I think it’s because of politics. While that isn’t an issue itself, it’s very closely related to the political issue of gay marriage. If the current political issue was whether we should have national contraceptive-buying day, people would be emphasising how terrible that is. It’s sort of like why abortion is a big issue. Sure, there is other very bad stuff happening, but abortion is the biggest we can affect. I think some people lose concern for other sins because they are so desperate to hold the fort on the marriage issue. (of course, if you ignore one sin it can lead to a domino effect, so I’m not sure that’s an effective strategy)

There may also be some people who are willing to talk about other’s sins and just ignore their own. (Not like I’ve ever done that :whistle:)
 
The Church is against pre marital sex however is unaware who is having it and who is not when they come to mass. its not like they have a marriage pin on there coats and not everyone wheres their rings .We dont have checkers at the door either . The church is against pre marital sex .The church would deny communion to people engaging in pre marital sex however it is to find out who is married and who is not at mass .It is easier to find out who is gay many times…the Bible (Gods inspired word ) clearly speaks against homosexuality ( example;Sodom and Gomora)there is counseling that priests offer and I know of a few examples of homosexuals turning heterosexual from it .your in my prayers
God Bless you, Frankie
 
Okay. I know there are 5486465154815316843516516812 threads on here about homosexuality. This is an opinion thread, not a factual one. I am NOT arguing the teachings of the church in this thread.

I am a homosexual striving to live a chaste life. My question is this.

The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
do you want to discuss Church teaching, or the behavior of individuals? you know they are not the same thing. Yes this is a Church full of sinners, many of us tempted and succumbing to far more serious failings than others.

I have never seen anyone refused communion for any reason, and I doubt very much it is a common thing. I have often seen couples in invalid marriages or unlawful living situations told they may not participate in public ministry, in fact since it is so common it is getting harder to find catechists and other lay liturgical ministers.

In any case, someone else’s sins and problems are not mine, my full attention is required by my own sin and I have no leisure for judging anyone else. The only time I am called upon to make a judgement is with regard to potential catechists, and if there is a concern, it is the pastor who ascertains all the facts and makes a judgement, I have not that authority.

but just because someone else is not called to justice in a manner I can witness or approve of has nothing whatever to do with my behavior or moral obligations.

do you want to talk about what “people” do as if we were qualified to make such global generalizations, which cannot possibly be accurate, or do you want to talk about a specific case of injustice?

most Catholics I know have no interest whatever in the sex lives of fellow parishioners so I doubt very much if a characterization this broad is relevant.
 
The goal of this post is to explore the nature of sin and our own judgemental nature. Let me pose a different question.

Do you think that parishoners judge homosexuals more quickly than heterosexuals for the same actions?

I feel that I am judged for my inner being. This is not how I want to be. It is how I am. That is all there is to it. I struggle to remain chaste, just as any heterosexual would. The point is, why are we so quick to judge homosexual Catholics, while we often turn a blind eye to the heterosexuals who are doing the same thing?

Homosexual acts break no more rules than heterosexual acts. So please do not try to say that homosexual acts are worse because they are in the Bible. Half of the book of Leviticus provides rules for sexual conduct among heterosexual individuals.
 
The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
What blind eye? Of course, none of us know when someone engages in casual sex. But couples living together are routinely denied ministry and teaching positions in my parish. They are blessed by Father when they hold out thier hands for Communion. Nobody, homosexual or not, is denied participation in Church events, however. I have never seen that happen in any parish and I’ve lived in over a dozen states and two foreign countries.

So, yes, same laws, same concerns, same call to repent.
 
Okay. I know there are 5486465154815316843516516812 threads on here about homosexuality. This is an opinion thread, not a factual one. I am NOT arguing the teachings of the church in this thread.

I am a homosexual striving to live a chaste life. My question is this.

The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
Your premise is wrong. Unmarried couples living together are not allowed to serve in any ministry in every parish i have ever been nin . Of course the Pastor does not pass out a questionaire asking what peoples lving arrangements are so if people, heterosexual or homosexual , are discreet it never becomes an issue.

Why homosewxuality gets more attention in places like CAF is because we dont have a lot of adulterers or umarried poeple who are living together coming in claiming there is nothng wrong woth with what they are doing and the Church should not condemn it.
 
Okay. I know there are 5486465154815316843516516812 threads on here about homosexuality. This is an opinion thread, not a factual one. I am NOT arguing the teachings of the church in this thread.

I am a homosexual striving to live a chaste life. My question is this.

The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
LOL! I love that number! That’s a bigger number than the amount of money I owe American Express! (ok, I don’t do humor well online…give me a break 🤷)

I have to agree with you, that much too often homosexual people do get looked down upon more than heterosexuals. It isn’t right or fair, and we would all be lying to each other if we didn’t admit it.

My brother in Christ-as hard as it is, turn a blind eye to those people who apply different rules to you because of who you are. Remind them that they, like you, are just the same-a sinner who needs the grace of God to get by.

Peace.
 
The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
I agree. I wish we could even out the playing field to include ALL sexual behavior oustide of marriage, not just homosexuals that are doing so. Singling out only homosexuals makes it appear that for everyone else, the Church thinks it’s A-O-K.

And it’s not. :mad:

Snert
 
Your premise is wrong. Unmarried couples living together are not allowed to serve in any ministry in every parish i have ever been nin . Of course the Pastor does not pass out a questionaire asking what peoples lving arrangements are so if people, heterosexual or homosexual , are discreet it never becomes an issue.

Why homosewxuality gets more attention in places like CAF is because we dont have a lot of adulterers or umarried poeple who are living together coming in claiming there is nothng wrong woth with what they are doing and the Church should not condemn it.
Interesting. Most of the threads on homosexuality are started by people opposed to homosexual behavior or gay marraige. Very few are started by people coming to the forum and claiming there is nothing wrong with their behavior.

Compare the number of threads started by people opposed to artificial birth control or premarital sex to the number started by people opposed to homosexual behavior.

I suggest so many people engage in premarital sex and ABC that they don’t want to talk about it. It is accepted. They support each other. The wholesale rejection of Vatican teachings on ABC by the people is not something folks want to talk about. But gays are safe, since there is much less participation. So, moral crusaders choose homosexuality for their campaigns while ignoring ABC and premarital sex.
 
Do you think that parishoners judge homosexuals more quickly than heterosexuals for the same actions?
Yes, and it is unfair.
I feel that I am judged for my inner being. This is not how I want to be. It is how I am. That is all there is to it. I struggle to remain chaste, just as any heterosexual would.
Blessings on your journey. Don’t start thinking that God judges your attractions; He loves you and accepts you, fully. Chastity is a fruit, not an action: if you nourish your roots with soil (prayer, love, commitment), you will find yourself living chastely.

Don’t worry about what judgments people are making. God has a special place for people who choose to judge others. :eek:
 
Okay. I know there are 5486465154815316843516516812 threads on here about homosexuality. This is an opinion thread, not a factual one. I am NOT arguing the teachings of the church in this thread.

I am a homosexual striving to live a chaste life. My question is this.

The Church’s teachings regarding sexual behavior carry beyond sexuality lines. They apply universally to all individuals. Why is it then that heterosexual couples can have sex out of the marriage contract and people turn a blind eye? When is the last time you saw a heterosexual person who is sexually active being denied communion or asked not to participate in church events? It seems unfair to me. Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?
That’s really the bottom line, isnt’ it? The fact is that they are equally as sinful. Perhaps one of the important differences is that a heterosexual sexual relationship outside of marriage can be legitimized by taking advantage of the sacrament of Reconciliation and then of Marriage.

A second difference is perhaps that of perception: If we were to see a heterosexual couple being affectionate in public, then going home together, perhaps we could assume that they were going to…um…participate in sexual activity. If we were not close enough to see if they had on wedding rings or otherwise did not know them, there would always be the possibility that they were married (to each other ;)) and their subsequent sexual activity would not be sinful in the eyes of the Church.

On the other hand, if we substitute a homosexual couple, we can never assume that any subsequent sexual activity that might occur or have occured is permitted. There is never the possibility that such activity would not be sinful.

Now we have no real business on speculating whether or not people are participating in sexual activity, but we’re human, and we do anyway. I guess nobody ever ***assumes ***that a homosexual couple is going home and is not going at some time going to participate in sexual activity. 🤷

You’re entirely correct, sometimes it seems like a double standard.
The goal of this post is to explore the nature of sin and our own judgemental nature. Let me pose a different question.

Do you think that parishoners judge homosexuals more quickly than heterosexuals for the same actions?

Yep, for the most part.

I feel that I am judged for my inner being. This is not how I want to be. It is how I am. That is all there is to it. I struggle to remain chaste, just as any heterosexual would. The point is, why are we so quick to judge homosexual Catholics, while we often turn a blind eye to the heterosexuals who are doing the same thing?

One of the reasons is perhaps that any particular heterosexual couple’s sexual relationship could possibly be legitimized through marriage, but the same cannot ever be the case with a homosexual couple’s sexual relationship.

Homosexual acts break no more rules than heterosexual acts. So please do not try to say that homosexual acts are worse because they are in the Bible. Half of the book of Leviticus provides rules for sexual conduct among heterosexual individuals.
 
Why homosewxuality gets more attention in places like CAF is because we dont have a lot of adulterers or umarried poeple who are living together coming in claiming there is nothng wrong woth with what they are doing and the Church should not condemn it.
Why do you think that is the case? Why aren’t adulterers starting threads claiming there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing? I think the answer is incredibly simple: because the overwhelming majority of adulterers believe and know with their heart that cheating on their spouse is wrong. I have yet to meet or hear from an adulterer that knew they were an adulterer when they were in middle school. I’ve never heard of one dealing with being an adulterer their entire lives. I’ve never met an adulterer who believed that adultery was their sexuality.

Most of the homosexuals who come to this board for a good debate do so because they believe and know with their heart that loving a person of the same sex isn’t wrong. Could they be wrong about that? Sure they could be. The thing is, they don’t believe for a second that they are. I for one can sympathize with why they may feel that way. The homosexual (many of whom aren’t even Catholic) believe the Church is wrong. The adulterer, on the other hand, has a pretty darn good idea that the Church is right. (Amazingly, they don’t even have to be Catholic to get that idea.) That’s the difference, and it’s a huge one. Find enough adulterers who believe the love they share with the person they cheat with is pure and you’ll start getting the threads to condone it. I wouldn’t hold your breath though. And I won’t hold my breath waiting for the “why aren’t adulterers starting threads” argument to go away anytime soon.

Peace,
Kolbe
 
Well, I think threre are a few reasons.

In the case of a hetrosexual, non-married couple who is not living together, the assumption is often that they are not sexually active but are moving toward marriage if it works out. Unless you are pretty intimate with the people, it isn’t polite to ask about their sex life. And dating with a view to marriage is perfectly legitimate.

For a homosexual the same thing is not the case. There is really no good way to “date” another person of the same sex, so if that seems to be what is happening, it is more clearly on the wrong track, even if the couple are not sexually active either. Of course they might just be good friends, and if people are judging that, it is really none of their business, any more than assuming an opposite sex pain can’t just be friends.

Other than that, I don’t know what people’s problem is. There seems to be a group of Catholics who believe that homosexuality is somehow chosen by the individual, or can be shed through therapy - you see them fairly regularly on this forum. So I suppose they they object to any homosexual on principle.

Also - on a personal level. Some people may not have a problem with homosexuality, but be uncomfortable with it because of their background, or because they are self-conscious about NOT seeming judgmental. And when you feel judged, because it is true, it often leads to being over-sensitive to signs of judgement in people where it may not exist. Mrs Smith is scowling because she is a crank, not because of anyone’s sexuality. At least that is my experience.
 
I want to clarify and say that I am not judged by my parish and am not speaking about any one group of people or another. I am simply working from the ideals that I have seen on this forum and asking you to explore the issue from the opposite sides. If it is truly a SEXUAL issue, than orrienttion should NEVER play a role in thread postings.
For a homosexual the same thing is not the case. There is really no good way to “date” another person of the same sex, so if that seems to be what is happening, it is more clearly on the wrong track, even if the couple are not sexually active either. Of course they might just be good friends, and if people are judging that, it is really none of their business, any more than assuming an opposite sex pain can’t just be friends.


Also - on a personal level. Some people may not have a problem with homosexuality, but be uncomfortable with it because of their background, or because they are self-conscious about NOT seeming judgmental. And when you feel judged, because it is true, it often leads to being over-sensitive to signs of judgement in people where it may not exist. Mrs Smith is scowling because she is a crank, not because of anyone’s sexuality. At least that is my experience.
Now, you raise some interesting points. Why is it that dating as a homosexual is wrong? If you are not sexually active, why does it make any difference? Is it directly breaking any of the Church teachings found in the Catechism? It might be, I am not sure. That is why I am asking! 🤷

It is prefectly valid to say that some people may percieve judgement that is not there. I suppose that in those circumstances, as long as your pastor is willing to give you communion and allow you to participate, than the thoughs of others are not worth your time or effort. 👍
 
Why do you think that is the case? Why aren’t adulterers starting threads claiming there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing? lbe
There is thread that started yesterday where an adulterer posted asking whether she should end the realtionship. The thread is over 50 posts now and not one single person has told her it was OK to continue. How many threads on homosexual behavior have you seen where someone does not try and justify it-even in this thread we have a post claiming homosexual dating is OK if they dont have any sex. In the aforemetioned thread on adultery no one has told her its ok to date the guy if they dont have sex.
 
mbc22488;5752681 said:
Well, this is a very difficult topic within our culture, because we have lost sight of the distinction between friendship and marriage, and because we do not often think about the different kinds of love.

Friendship is a very distinct kind of love, which involves personal (not sexual) intimacy, a genuine enjoyment of the other person’s company, common interests, and so on. It has the unique characteristic that it is love for that person’s unique characteristics. (Compare universal love, the kind of love we are supposed to have for all people, regardless of their characteristics.) In this is replicates a certain aspect of God’s love, which is both particular and universal, and that is a very fine thing. Friendship is an important and rewarding part of life for almost all people, at least at some point in their lives. It is also possible to have more than one friend - it is not exclusive.

Marriage has not been traditionally understood, within Christianity or without, as necessarily encompassing friendship. An integral part of marriage is the vow of love, which is a duty, and in a way more like universal love. We are bound to it even if we don’t “feel” very loving. Difference plays an important part in marriage. The bonds of marriage are tied up with sexuality, child-rearing, and a common life. Common activities, likes and dislikes, which are central to friendship, do not need to play a part. Not everybody is called to marriage, and many will never marry. And we only have one spouse, at least at any one time.

Now, culturally, we tend to encourage people to choose a spouse on the basis of something closer to friendship, as well as romantic love which has a strong physical component. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and friendships have often occurred in marriages that started out without them. But, they are not central to what it is, and when people forget that, it causes many problems. They often think, quite honestly, that the substance of the marriage has disappeared when friendship cools. Or they let the bonds of friendship stand in for the bonds of marriage - common goals and child-rearing.

Now dating or courtship is NOT friendship. It is one way of people getting to know each other with the end of marriage. The main focus should be on discerning whether this would be a person with whom you want to live a married life, and so you should be looking for the qualities as individuals and as a couple that would lead to that. And it tends to be exclusive, at least once it’s past the initial stages.

Perhaps this makes it more clear why a homosexual would not be able to date someone of the same gender without being in a contradictory position - dating is looking for a kind of compatibility or an end that cannot be.

Friendship on the other hand would be fine, even if some silly people call it “dating” which they certainly do at times if the friends are of the opposite sex. In fact I would say that it would be very important for a gay person to have friendships or loneliness would likely be a serious problem. The only difficulty would be where friendship started to lead to feelings of another kind. That happens with opposite friendships too though and there are ways to deal with it, though occasionally it means backing off from the friendship. I think it tends to be exaggerated because of our inability to differentiate between friendship and romantic love - it used to be much more common to see deep, intimate friendships among men; now people tend to assume there were sexual things going on because they can’t imagine anything else.

You might be interested in reading “The Four Loves” bu CS Lewis, which talks about the various kinds of love and their place and purpose.
 
There is thread that started yesterday where an adulterer posted asking whether she should end the realtionship. The thread is over 50 posts now and not one single person has told her it was OK to continue. How many threads on homosexual behavior have you seen where someone does not try and justify it-even in this thread we have a post claiming homosexual dating is OK if they dont have any sex. In the aforemetioned thread on adultery no one has told her its ok to date the guy if they dont have sex.
Estesbob, that is exactly my point. Not a single poster told her it was okay because not a single poster thinks it might be okay. There isn’t and probably never will be much of a debate there. That’s why you’re not going to see an abundance of adulterers seeking approval (hence, answering your earlier question). The debate on homosexuality is usually covering a much more vast area of debate. You can’t discuss adultery without the sin of adultery. You can discuss homosexuality without the sin of homosexual actions. Where the answer to adultery is pretty clear to most people even the adulterers, that simply isn’t the case (not even close) when it comes to homosexuality, especially for the homosexuals. You can and you will get debates there, a lot of them. I’m not sure where the thread is you are talking about but I’m curious, is the original poster in that thread ever directly or indirectly compared to pedophiles or people who have sex with animals? I could be wrong but I’m guessing it’s not mentioned. These two subect matters are treated and “understood” very, very differently.

Peace,
Kolbe
 
I LOVE how this thread is going. This is, for the most part, a very healthy and non confrontational debate about this issue.

Estesbob
I am not trying to justify homosexual dating. I simply posed the question to Bluegoat, who in turn responded with a very lovely answer. We are on the same side here! Everyone posting on this thread has the intention of exploring the truths of the Catechism and how it relates to our life.

Kolbe
The conflict you brought up is a major one. Extra marital affairs are simple because everyone universally agrees that it is wrong. Homosexuals often feel that they are not doign anything wrong because homosexuality is ingrained. In this modern age, few educated people would say that homosexuality is a choice. This argument makes no sense to me, but it is out there.

From my perspective, homosexuality is a part of who I have always been. I strive to live by the Church’s teachings and have just resigned myself to not arguing the point any longer. I do like the intelligent discussions we are having on here though!

Bluegoat
That was a wonderful response. It answered my question and defended your point beautifully!
 
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