Another Gay Thread

[Frankie_M]

I believe you missed the point I am trying to make.The church never will be for homosexuality . The church lives by the Bible(Gods word)and in it their are specific verses against the actions of homosexuality .you say you cannot control your ways I provided a suggestion that you seek counseling from a priest.(I know of a few success stories in that area)True catholics are not homosexual. There is a difference between catholics by name and catholics by faith.Until you correct your error you cannot be in true grace with Christ, for now it seems you have fallen out of grace.(if you think I am being harsh I am sorry but the 12 apostles would have been more and its tough love )

In my prayers always , Frankie

 

[Bluegoat]

I believe you missed the point I am trying to make.The church never will be for homosexuality . The church lives by the Bible(Gods word)and in it their are specific verses against the actions of homosexuality .you say you cannot control your ways I provided a suggestion that you seek counseling from a priest.(I know of a few success stories in that area)True catholics are not homosexual. There is a difference between catholics by name and catholics by faith.Until you correct your error you cannot be in true grace with Christ, for now it seems you have fallen out of grace.(if you think I am being harsh I am sorry but the 12 apostles would have been more and its tough love )

In my prayers always , Frankie

You might want to consider this from the Apologists section.

Re: Is homosexuality a sin even if you do not perfom the act?

 

[Kolbe300]

True catholics are not homosexual.

Thank you for a wonderful example of why this debate is not only maddening, but will never end.

 

[mbc22488]

I believe you missed the point I am trying to make.The church never will be for homosexuality . The church lives by the Bible(Gods word)and in it their are specific verses against the actions of homosexuality .you say you cannot control your ways I provided a suggestion that you seek counseling from a priest.(I know of a few success stories in that area)True catholics are not homosexual. There is a difference between catholics by name and catholics by faith.Until you correct your error you cannot be in true grace with Christ, for now it seems you have fallen out of grace.(if you think I am being harsh I am sorry but the 12 apostles would have been more and its tough love )

In my prayers always , Frankie

Frankie,

I would like to encourage you to check out your Catechism on this issue. Your views on Church teachings are not correct. I would say that YOU have fallen out of grace. “Do not fall prey to strange teachings.” The official teaching of the Church is that homosexuality in itself is not sinful, only homosexual acts are. I, and many like me, strive to live chastely.

In regards to the therapy you have mentioned. This therapy has been proven time and time again to cause irreperable damage on the patients. It leads to a distructive and unhealthy home life once the “cured” patient becomes married. It is simple indoctrination, not a cure. Similar work was done in Nazi Germany on poor Jews who were experimented upon.

I would also caution you against Biblical Literalism. This is not how the Catholic Church interperates scripture. We must always consider the context in which a passage was written, the social pressures, other conflicting passages, the entire passage (instead of a single verse) etc. There are a number of times in his letters that Paul says that ALL should be celibate. Clearly, this teaching didnt take. Why? Well, Paul believed that Jesus’ return would occur during his lifetime. When that didnt happen, he slowly began to realize the great mystery of Christ. Clearly Christians couldnt be celibate. It would cause Christians to die out similar to the Shakers and Quakers in the US.

Please open your mind and explore your faith more deeply. Step into an RCIA class for a refresher course. Take a Catechist certification course. Read some of the wonderful literature published by companies like Loyola Press who publish guides for priests and lay ministers.

Blessings!

 

[Gerard_Nadal]

mbc,

Plenty of good responses here. Lots for you to contemplate. I’ll add just a few thoughts. First, prayers and blessings for you on your journey and your struggle. Have you read any of Father John Harvey’s work on homosexuality, or looked into the group Courage, which he helped found?

Next, as regards your original question. Check out Leviticus, chapter 18. God condemns all forms of heterosexual sex sins. He saves the strongest terms for homosexual sex (abomination) and bestiality (abhorrent). It might all be sinful, but it is not equally odious in God’s descriptions.

Heterosexual couples can bring their expressions of love, sinful in their extramarital context, into the honorable enclosure of the marriage covenant. Homosexuals can not. The sexual orientation of the heterosexual is ordered normally. The Church teaches that the homosexual orientation is gravely disordered. These are no trite differences. There is no sin in being homosexually oriented, only in the behavior. But that is not to say that there is nothing intrinsically wrong or even healthy in the orientation.

A double-standard in the parishes? Yes and no. Not all people come at the issue from the same catechetical, moral or temperamental perspective. The responses are pretty heterogeneous in their etiologies. Perhaps not so much in their conclusions. All should be motivated by love, though many are not. It’s always easy to condemn the sin that we have no attraction toward, isn’t it? :sad_yes:

God Bless. :tiphat:

 

[Gerard_Nadal]

Frankie,

I would like to encourage you to check out your Catechism on this issue. Your views on Church teachings are not correct. I would say that YOU have fallen out of grace. “Do not fall prey to strange teachings.” The official teaching of the Church is that homosexuality in itself is not sinful, only homosexual acts are. I, and many like me, strive to live chastely.

In regards to the therapy you have mentioned. This therapy has been proven time and time again to cause irreperable damage on the patients. It leads to a distructive and unhealthy home life once the “cured” patient becomes married. It is simple indoctrination, not a cure. Similar work was done in Nazi Germany on poor Jews who were experimented upon.

I would also caution you against Biblical Literalism. This is not how the Catholic Church interperates scripture. We must always consider the context in which a passage was written, the social pressures, other conflicting passages, the entire passage (instead of a single verse) etc. There are a number of times in his letters that Paul says that ALL should be celibate. Clearly, this teaching didnt take. Why? Well, Paul believed that Jesus’ return would occur during his lifetime. When that didnt happen, he slowly began to realize the great mystery of Christ. Clearly Christians couldnt be celibate. It would cause Christians to die out similar to the Shakers and Quakers in the US.

Please open your mind and explore your faith more deeply. Step into an RCIA class for a refresher course. Take a Catechist certification course. Read some of the wonderful literature published by companies like Loyola Press who publish guides for priests and lay ministers.

Blessings!

mbc,

I believe you are a little mistaken about your reading of the scriptures. Where Paul suggests celibacy, he always prefaces it with the disclaimer that ‘this is not from the Lord’. Paul is always careful to differentiate his preferences from Jesus’ revelation to him.

Secondly, it is the teaching of the church that the Holy Spirit preserved the authors of the sacred books from ‘every error’ Read* Providentissimus Deus, Divino Afflante Spiritu,* and Dei Verbum.

If you are holding out for some sort of social evolution on homosexuality, it isn’t going to happen. The morality here is taught in the infallibility of the ordinary Magisterium.

 

[Bluegoat]

mbc,
All should be motivated by love, though many are not. It’s always easy to condemn the sin that we have no attraction toward, isn’t it? :sad_yes:

C.S. Lewis in his biographical writings described some homosexual behavior that went on at the boys school he attended. He was not supportive, but not especially condemning either. Some people criticized him for not coming down harder. He had several reasons for not doing so, however, his main one was that as a sin to which he had never felt an affinity, he was not in a position to comment on it with much insight or be too harsh.

It would perhaps be better if we all took this to heart in considering the nature of sins we are not attracted to.

 

[estesbob]

C.S. Lewis in his biographical writings described some homosexual behavior that went on at the boys school he attended. He was not supportive, but not especially condemning either. Some people criticized him for not coming down harder. He had several reasons for not doing so, however, his main one was that as a sin to which he had never felt an affinity, he was not in a position to comment on it with much insight or be too harsh.

It would perhaps be better if we all took this to heart in considering the nature of sins we are not attracted to.

I am having a hard time following this. We are only to condemn sin that we feel we might commit? Would that apply to murder, incest, rape? Believe me i have no attraction for any of these but feel i have every right to condemn them.

The truth of the matter is we see this kind of amibivalnce when people are really not persuaded that homoexual behavior is a sin. It is an attitude born of our current culture. Rather than flat out reject the Churchs teachings on homosexualtiy people have a tendecy to make excuses for it, claiming they agree with the Churchs teaching but lashing out at most everyone who publicly affirms the Church’s teachings.

 

[carinapir]

I think some posters are completely missing the point. MBC, has already clearly stated that he remains chaste (or tries to in the same what that heterosexuals do). He has never even hinted that homosexual behavior should be acceptable within the Catholic Church. Those posters who have “reminded” us all that homosexuality is a sin are doing exactly what MBC put up for discussion in the first place. They are condemning the state of being a homosexual and not the actions that a homosexual may or may not chose to engage in and in doing so they are judging homosexuals more harshly than they would heterosexuals.

BTW, “being a homosexual” means the same thing and being a regular old horny man. I would imagine (I’m a woman) that the feelings of lust are very similar for both the heterosexual and homosexual man, it’s just that the object of desire is different. If a homosexual man can control himself in the same manner that a heterosexual man can, why should he be viewed any differently. He is no more sinful than any other man who simply struggles with his sexual urges.

Of course, heterosexual man are probably too insecure to put themselves in the shoes of a homosexual man and imagine having the same level of desire that they hold for a woman, misdirected to a man.

 

[lizaanne]

Why do you think people put so much greater emphasis on homosexual acts rather than heterosexual acts? Arent they both breaking the exact same Church law? Shouldn’t they both be viewed with the same level of concern?

Let’s all be honest here - we all know why this is the case. It’s the icky factor. Homosexual sex has a very high icky factor for most people - the thought of two people of the same sex having sex is seen as disordered and vile. Yes - of course sex outside of marriage applies to everyone (marriage only applies to mixed sex couples obviously), but what makes the whole homosexual sex thing much more visible and on the hot list, aside from some of the obvious things other folks have mentioned, is the icky factor. People react very viscerally about it - it really is not more complicated than that.

Does that make it right? I don’t know. But it certainly explains why people are much more vocal about it.

~Liza

 

[Kolbe300]

It would perhaps be better if we all took this to heart in considering the nature of sins we are not attracted to.

I think that you were able to really draw out a point I have unsuccessfully tried to make in the past. The Church, whether we want to admit it or not, has many, many homosexually oriented brothers and sisters. By trying to reach a better understanding of the nature of the issue and placing ourselves in the shoes of others dealing with it, we will be able to reach out a compassionate hand of help, rather than an accusing finger. For every loud voice promoting gay marriage there are many more who suffer in silence. My concern is particularly high for teens and young adults, those who, through no fault of their own and without commiting any homosexual act, are still dealing with the orientation. To them, the orientation doesn’t feel sick, perverted, disgusting, or repulsive. If we can understand that, I think we can help in a deeper way.

I am having a hard time following this. We are only to condemn sin that we feel we might commit? Would that apply to murder, incest, rape? Believe me i have no attraction for any of these but feel i have every right to condemn them.

I think that C.S. Lewis wasn’t saying that we should accept or not condemn sin. What I got from reading that post is that the reason someone sins may be much less clear to us than the sin itself. If we don’t try to understand the reasons why, what can we really do other than point the accusing finger? It has always been my experience that those who codemn the most, understand the least. Those who have come to a better understanding (my spiritual directors, for instance), are able to draw others closer to the truth while never stepping one foot outside of Catholic teaching. They do all of that without ever using a condemning finger.

Peace,
Kolbe

 

[estesbob]

I think that you were able to really draw out a point I have unsuccessfully tried to make in the past. The Church, whether we want to admit it or not, has many, many homosexually oriented brothers and sisters. By trying to reach a better understanding of the nature of the issue and placing ourselves in the shoes of others dealing with it, we will be able to reach out a compassionate hand of help, rather than an accusing finger. For every loud voice promoting gay marriage there are many more who suffer in silence. My concern is particularly high for teens and young adults, those who, through no fault of their own and without commiting any homosexual act, are still dealing with the orientation. To them, the orientation doesn’t feel sick, perverted, disgusting, or repulsive. If we can understand that, I think we can help in a deeper way.

How? Are they not to be taught that if they let feeling lead to homosexual behavior it is a gerevious sins? Likewise heterosexual teens have sexaul feelings that ,if follwed up, lead to greviuos sin. Should they likewise not be told this lest we upset them?

I think that C.S. Lewis wasn’t saying that we should accept or not condemn sin. What I got from reading that post is that the reason someone sins may be much less clear to us than the sin itself. If we don’t try to understand the reasons why, what can we really do other than point the accusing finger? It has always been my experience that those who codemn the most, understand the least. Those who have come to a better understanding (my spiritual directors, for instance), are able to draw others closer to the truth while never stepping one foot outside of Catholic teaching. They do all of that without ever using a condemning finger.

So your spiritual directoir dos not believe iut is necessary to point out to one who has SSA that homosexual behavior is a grevious sin

 

[mbc22488]

Wow guys… This is a great discussion!

Carinapir,

Thank you for coming to my defense. You are exactly right! People who comment and make personal attacks against me are proving my point.

Lizaanne,

I LOVE the term “Icky Factor”. HA! It is a wonderfully colorful way to discuss something that seems so distasteful. To those of you who have suggested therapy for me… I would like to propose an idea. When I think of heterosexual activity, I am filled with the same “icky factor” as you all are.

Kolbe,

Teen suffering is a terrible thing that we have to deal with. It took me a VERY long time to come to the point where I am today. A place where I can openly talk about my struggles, my past issues, and how I cope. I wish that we could come to a point where homosexual teens could find good role models. Unfortunatley, the only person at my parish who knows I am a homosexual is my priest. I am sure others “suspect”. I would hope that if a teen came to my pastor he would be willing to send them to me for guidance.

Also, someone, I cant remember who, commented on the large number of homosexual brothers, sisters, and priests. Pope Benedict recently considered removing all homosexual priests from thier public offices. This came in response to his visit to America and dealing with sexual abuse. His cardinals quickly let him know that we would lose around 1/3 of our religious, and (this is speculative i believe) half of his personal entorage.

After watching this thread for several days, I will finally put forth my point.

As has been demonstrated here, we must create a calm and supportive environment for homosexuals to develop spiritually. We must be careful not to let our “ickyness factors” create bias. Homosexuals are just people with a special burden to carry.

 

[carinapir]

How? Are they not to be taught that if they let feeling lead to homosexual behavior it is a gerevious sins? Likewise heterosexual teens have sexaul feelings that ,if follwed up, lead to greviuos sin. Should they likewise not be told this lest we upset them?

You are missing the point again. The fact that homosexual behavior is a grievous sin is a given. Case closed! Mbc knows this and so do other homosexuals. The Church is very clear on this point.

The discussion is about how some people go a step further and allow the aptly named “Ick factor” to cause them to judge homosexuals more harshly than heterosexuals. You are doing it yourself by assuming that a homosexual is incapable of remaining chaste and being a good Catholic. Parishioners and priests who care about the soul of a homosexual should first BELIEVE that he/she is capable of handling the difficult burden and encourage them to do so. Rather than simply informing them that “the church will never allow homosexuals” and “homosexual behavior is a grievous sin” and assuming that they are here to argue the virtues of homosexuality.

 

[estesbob]

You are missing the point again. The fact that homosexual behavior is a grievous sin is a given. Case closed! Mbc knows this and so do other homosexuals. The Church is very clear on this point.

The discussion is about how some people go a step further and allow the aptly named “Ick factor” to cause them to judge homosexuals more harshly than heterosexuals. You are doing it yourself by assuming that a homosexual is incapable of remaining chaste and being a good Catholic. Parishioners and priests who care about the soul of a homosexual should first BELIEVE that he/she is capable of handling the difficult burden and encourage them to do so. Rather than simply informing them that “the church will never allow homosexuals” and “homosexual behavior is a grievous sin” and assuming that they are here to argue the virtues of homosexuality.

I wonder if anyone else can see the irony of you lecturing me about judging people while judging me. I never said a word about homosexuals not being able to remain chaste.

My point is that the idea that homoexual sin is judged more harshly than heterosexual sin is simply not true . The truth of the matter is that in or culture people bend over backwards to show compassion for homosexuals and or jusify homosexual behavior. You want to see some harsh judgement-go to one of the “My husband views porn” or “My spouse has been unfaithful” threads

 

[carinapir]

I agree! You didn’t exactly say that you didn’t believe that homosexuals couldn’t remain chaste, but you were so in left field that I’m glad the “irony” of my post brought you back.

Now we know that you simply disagree with the premise that homosexuals are judged too harshly.

 

[estesbob]

I agree! You didn’t exactly say that you didn’t believe that homosexuals couldn’t remain chaste, but you were so in left field that I’m glad the “irony” of my post brought you back.

Now we know that you simply disagree with the premise that homosexuals are judged too harshly.

it is unfortuantle but generally people are considered to be in left field when they annunciate Church teaching.

 

[Kolbe300]

How? Are they not to be taught that if they let feeling lead to homosexual behavior it is a gerevious sins? Likewise heterosexual teens have sexaul feelings that ,if follwed up, lead to greviuos sin. Should they likewise not be told this lest we upset them?

Forgive me if this post comes across as too strong, I believe my “remain calm” valve has exploded. Honestly, estesbob, do you even read my posts before you comment? Seriously, do you? Where have I suggested, even remotely, ever, that we can’t tell someone that homosexual acts are sinful? It seems as if some people are actually physically incapable of realizing that a homosexual orientation can exist without homosexual acts. Because of this sadly annoying fact, they are utterly incapable of offering any help to a homosexual searching to live the Catholic faith.

What do we tell the high school kid dealing with homosexuality, the kid that has never committed a homosexual act? Do we warn them the dangers of homosexual actions? OF COURSE WE DO!! But then what? Do we keep yelling at them to stop having the sex they aren’t having? Do we scream at them until they’re attracted to the opposite sex? How can a person possibly love and help anyone when they are so blinded by the very sin that may not even be present? It doesn’t matter what I say here, it’s interpreted as “let’s not tell homosexuals that gay sex is bad.” Why in the world is that?

So your spiritual directoir dos not believe iut is necessary to point out to one who has SSA that homosexual behavior is a grevious sin

See what I mean? I said that my spiritual director doesn’t step one foot outside of Catholic teaching. Does Catholic teaching not include the greviousness of homosexual acts? Unlike so many, my spiritual director is actually capable of realizing that celibacy doesn’t make a homosexual orientation disappear. He is capable of understanding that the subject reaches way beyond actions. He has the ability to understand that many young people today are dealing with homosexuality without any sexual sins. And he understands that a condemning finger pointed at them is about as useful as a chair with two legs.

He gets it. Every spiritual director I’ve had has gotten it. Why is it so hard for others?

 

[StillWondering]

There is also the issue of knowledge, not just knowledge that a non-married person is committing sexual sins, but also knowledge from the parishioners of what the Church teaches. I can say that matter of fact because at one point or another I did not know. I heard the secular descriptions and while I thought they were strange, did not know what the Church really teach for a long time.

So a lot of people do not know how serious adultery and other sexual sins are. And on top of that some do know but refuses to believe.

To really look into this though, remember the the Church is really old. I remember reading that back in the early days of the Church during the dorian heresy (not sure on the spelling) people that commit public sins had to kneel in front of their parish church for six months begging the parishioners to pray for them before they were allowed into the naive again. Think of priests, pastors, bishops and people that committed sexual sins or other grievous and scandalous sins. Well, I do not know how this applied to the laity but I think it was pretty clear back then how serious sins are serious.

So turning back to our modern era, the average laity may just not know better or got secularized. I’m sorry if others look down on you or others because of this. I just want to remind everyone that the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that while homosexual acts are sinful and grave, we are not to mistreat or have bigotry against our fellow sinners. In fact, we are called to be charitable and to help them to live out their faith. I have moral problems myself and would love for others to give me a helping hand. Thus I try to love others because God loves them. Hopefully all people will love each other at levels unheard of in this age even before the final judgment

 

[carinapir]

it is unfortuantle but generally people are considered to be in left field when they annunciate Church teaching.

You were in left field because Mbc did not need the teachings of the Church to be annunciated for him. He understands them and did not disagree with them.

Kolbe300’s post is an excellent explaination of how you are stuck on homosexual acts rather than the burden that homosexuals must carry.