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Holly3278
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I think people put more emphasis on homosexual acts because homosexual acts are still largely taboo and hopefully will remain that way.
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BobObob
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I would just like to give you my perspective, as a practicing Catholic who understands and abides by the teachings of the Catholic Church in regards to sexual morality who has SSA. I have never acted out on my SSA with anyone else, but I do struggle with porn and masturbation.
It is my experience that when someone at my college, the Franciscan University of Steubenville, which is an orthodox, Catholic college, suspects or figures out that I have SSA, they usually look down on me and keep their distance from me (at least it certainly seems that way).
People have a hard time separating SSA from sodomy. This is like considering everyone who has opposite sex attraction (which is just about everyone) a fornicator or adulterer. It is very bias.
Also, one’s sexual attractions are rarely, if ever, chosen.
It is my experience that when someone at my college, the Franciscan University of Steubenville, which is an orthodox, Catholic college, suspects or figures out that I have SSA, they usually look down on me and keep their distance from me (at least it certainly seems that way).
People have a hard time separating SSA from sodomy. This is like considering everyone who has opposite sex attraction (which is just about everyone) a fornicator or adulterer. It is very bias.
Also, one’s sexual attractions are rarely, if ever, chosen.
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mbc22488
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Thank you for this genuine testimony!
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Bluegoat
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No, I don’t think that was his point at all. He was very clear about his (orthodox) views on homosexuality elsewhere.
But sin, in Christianity, is not all about externals - the interior reality of the sin is at least as, if not more so, important. This is true with all types of sin. Does the person really understand the nature of his action, or have self-understanding? What kind of promptings cause him to want to commit it? What barriers and difficulties does he face in trying to control it, either within himself or from the world around him?
All of these things impact how “bad” the sin is, and what should be done about helping the person with the problem. He might need education, or help breaking bad habits, or medication, or counseling for trauma, or companionship, or a new environment.
The fact is, when confronted with a specific instance of sin, if we really can’t imagine ourselves in a place where we could do something like that, we aren’t in a good position to really understand why the person is committing the sin, or what might help the person avoid it, or how culpable they really are.
In the case of the boys in the school, Lewis felt that their environment (no girls) had a lot to do with the instances of homosexual sin, and farther than that, I don’t think he had much idea about the level of culpability in the boys. He thought there were other much more destructive activities going on in the school which marked the pupils for life, whereas the homosexual activity was a response to a specific set of conditions. So he just didn’t see it as the biggest problem with the place.
Also, as far as imagining oneself committing a sin you normally aren’t attracted to. Most sins have a lot of characteristics of other sins. If you need to know how it might feel to want to rape someone, think about a violent desire to humiliate them, which I suspect is very similar. As far as homosexual activity goes, I think it feels just like wanting to have sex with a person of the opposite gender or falling in love with a person of the opposite gender. Many of the same difficulties, pains, and stumbling blocks would apply.
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carinapir
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Kind of off topic, but part of me wonders what Catholic parishioners would think of a woman who returned to the Church who they knew had had an abortion at one point in her life. And by returned, I mean had confessed and had the excommunication (if applicable) lifted.
Could they see beyond the Pro-Life / Pro-Choice debate and not treat her as a baby murder even though they had never been in that situation and made the wrong choice themselves? I suspect that most Catholic women who have had an abortion would keep it to themselves just as heterosexuals keep their adultery to themselves. Homosexuals just don’t have that luxury sometimes.
Could they see beyond the Pro-Life / Pro-Choice debate and not treat her as a baby murder even though they had never been in that situation and made the wrong choice themselves? I suspect that most Catholic women who have had an abortion would keep it to themselves just as heterosexuals keep their adultery to themselves. Homosexuals just don’t have that luxury sometimes.
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lizaanne
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I know a woman who had an abortion. She used to keep this a secret but has recently in the past three years “come out” about it, even to her grown child who did not know (the abortion was her first pregnancy) and now is a sidewalk counselor and very devout Catholic. She is horribly repentant about her past, and those around her are aware of this accept her for who she is, not based on what she did. I count her as a friend, and I pray for her continued healing. She knows full well what she did - no one has to wave the banner of the dead child in front of her to remind her.
~Liza
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Bluegoat
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I think part of the difficulty for homosexuals is that some don’t count them as having “repented” until they are no longer homosexuals. They think they should take one of those programs and start looking for a nice girl to marry. An impossible demand for most; even if they knew it’s a foolish demand, it would be rather wearing I think.
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carinapir
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Good point! It would be extremely frustrating to be expected to met this level of “repentance” especially if people who have committed potentially more grevious sins are welcomed back easily.
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LilyM
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Easily? I don’t think we necessarily welcome all sinners back very easily at all. What about pedophiles? serial killers? those who commit the sin of incest? what about those who, as has been said, are denied the opportunity to participate in different ministries because they are cohabiting? Those who are in marriages that are not recognised by the church and often have to go through the difficult process of annulment and convalidation before they can participate? members of the SSPX even?
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carinapir
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I didn’t say all sinners. I referred generally to sins that would be considered more grievious than some homosexual activity and in my prior post I was actually comparing it to the sin of abortion.
I have no idea what SSPX is. Not having your marriage recognized is not a stigma now-a-days, it’s just par for the course. And I honestly don’t see that as a hardship but perhaps I’m missing something. We are actually talking about people personally looking down on a homosexual who is actively trying to live a chaste life.
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LilyM
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Among faithful (and even some not-so-faithful) Catholics, there is still great emphasis placed on being married in the eyes of the Church, so yes, it is often something people are personally looked down about. The same people who don’t care about church weddings, in my experience, also won’t care if you’re gay, for the most part.
SSPX are a group that, against the express directive of the Pope, ordained several bishops and priests, thus placing itself out of communion with Rome. Their leader died excommunicate. Again, a big issue for faithful Catholics.
And what about the others I mentioned - pedophiles, those guilty of incest, serial killers? You really think people don’t personally look down on them? You only need to read the media reports about each type of activity to know that they most certainly do.
Just last week we had, here in Sydney Australia, a pedophile who had been convicted and served his (lengthy) time literally hounded out of his home, where he had every legal right to reside, in a manner that old-time Southern lynch mobs would’ve been proud of. Including a child-sized coffin placed in his yard, which is probably not the worst thing that happened.
I’m sure whatever rejection you may feel, you haven’t been subjected to that sort of contempt at least!
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carinapir
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Firstly, I don’t think you’ve read the whole thread. In the OP’s experience, homosexuals who are living chastely, as instructed by the Church, are still treated as sinners by some church members and we were discussing why that might be the case. We were not trying to compare homosexual acts or the treatment of homosexuals to that of pedophiles, heretics or killers. The OP had asked us to compare homosexual behavior to that of adulters or those who have sex outside of marriage, both which seem equivalent to homosexual acts, and we did so. Just because the homosexuals “have it better” than pedophiles, heretics or killers, does not mean that there are not occasions where they are treated unfairly.
And the most important point here is that we are talking about CHASTE homosexuals not practicing, same-sex married homosexuals.
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LilyM
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I wasn’t talking about practicing, unrepentant, active sinners either. Look at Roman Polanski - committed his one and only crime of underage sex 30+ years ago. Pled guilty, so obviously knew what he did was wrong. Ever since, he has been hounded by police (was arrested the other week for skipping bail 30+ years ago) and looked down on by a majority of society for what he did back then.
Neither is the Sydney pedophile I was talking about currently active or (as far as can be judged) unrepentant. Haven’t heard him claiming that what he did wasn’t wrong, so certainly it seems he’s reformed. Obviously he has been years in jail not being able to commit acts of pedophilia whilst incarcerated, so has been chaste. Yet still vilified.
SSPX - some people look askance on those who have flirted with them in the past, some people call them heretics when they are not, just in incomplete communion with the Church. Again, a misperception of them leading to vilification.
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StillWondering
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I’m a sinner. We are all sinners. I think people that look down on other repentant sinners are those that do not understand mercy. Remember the parable of the debtors where a man was forgiven of his debt but then did not forgive those who owed him much less then what he owes? Well, he was arrested and his debt unforgiven. Those that look down upon you without loving you are risking condemning themselves.
So yeah it is painful for you when others mistreat you who are trying very hard to live a chaste life. However, if you can find it in your heart to forgive them and pray for their hearts to learn mercy, I would imagine God would be please with your acts of mercy and charity. When they shun you while you live rightly, it is an opportunity for you to be blessed. Have strength and keep God close to you. The only opinion that matters is His after all.
So yeah it is painful for you when others mistreat you who are trying very hard to live a chaste life. However, if you can find it in your heart to forgive them and pray for their hearts to learn mercy, I would imagine God would be please with your acts of mercy and charity. When they shun you while you live rightly, it is an opportunity for you to be blessed. Have strength and keep God close to you. The only opinion that matters is His after all.
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JohnMPhilomena
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Three cheers for you for striving to live a chaste life!
I do agree there is a double standard and homosexuals are treated unfairly. And yes - I don’t think heterosexual people having continued unrepentent sexual relationships out of wedlock should be receiving communion either. But it’s not my place to make that determination or judgement either.
I also know that God loves you - right now, in whatever state you are in. And he wants you to return to Him and do your best to be chaste.
I think the reason for the double standard is lack of understanding. Here is what I’ve come to learn - I know that same sex attraction (SSA) is not a choice. I also know that it can occur in very normal families. I also know that you were not born this way (although it feels like you were). But when the roots of homosexuality are explored there are usually things missing - for a male it could be a distant father, a mean brother, lack of affirmation due to poor athletic skills.
There are also numerous examples of people who have been able to explore these reasons and change. But satan doesn’t want you to believe this is possible. he wants you to think it is the church’s problem for not accepting you. he wants you to believe that those who have changed never were really gay in the first place.
Please consider being part of a group that offers prayers and support of those suffering with SSA.
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=205
Good luck in the struggle and keep the faith. Remember, the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality, it is holiness.
God Bless you,
John Marie Philomena
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IHeartAquinas
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I think a major problem with parishioners’ views on homosexuals is that they forget that homosexuality and homoeroticism are not directly linked in Catholic teaching.
According to the Catholic Church:
Is it a sin to be a homosexual? No.
Is it a sin to participate in homoerotic intercourse? Yes.
Not all homosexuals have sex with someone of the same gender. And the same old arguments concerning homosexuals being addicted to sex and that all of them are pederasts flies in the face of the millions of people living perfectly chaste lives. Monks, nuns, priests, those called to be single, and those who are widowed. I am not saying every monk does not masturbate. I’m sure some of them do. But you must admit the possibility of at least some members of a community answering fully their call to chastity in whatever form it takes. If a person is truly a homosexual, it is not our place to assume that they are guilty of the sin that is commonly linked with it. If a Catholic, or indeed, anyone else, automatically assumes this of a homosexual, then they must logically assume that all sexual relations are done out of chastity and in sin. (I think I just stumbled across the origins of the Shakers!)
Too many in the Catholic community (my parents included) link behavior with identification. I personally believe that God made certain individuals to hold a sexual attraction to people of the same gender just as much as He made others to hold a sexual attraction to people of the opposite gender. He breathed life individually into every one of us. Who we are is not a product of choice. How we act upon the traits we have, THAT is our choice. The pedophile is reviled because he acted on his thoughts. But I do not believe that every grown adult who is attracted to the idea act on it. There may be pedophiles who have never acted upon it because they know that to do so is wrong. It is not shameful to have a specific orientation. It is shameful to act upon it.
Additionally, the idea of “curing” homosexuality is offensive to anyone with reason in their head. It’s like curing someone of being Caucasian or Mongoloid or Chinese. It’s like “curing” the Romanovs once they were killed. Being gay is like being pregnant–you are or you aren’t. What you do with it is the choice with which you are faced. And it is never our place to judge. Making assumptions puts the power of omniscience in our hands, something only God possesses, and it is definitely not our place to put ourselves equal to God. Someone already tried that and ended with an epic fail.
According to the Catholic Church:
Is it a sin to be a homosexual? No.
Is it a sin to participate in homoerotic intercourse? Yes.
Not all homosexuals have sex with someone of the same gender. And the same old arguments concerning homosexuals being addicted to sex and that all of them are pederasts flies in the face of the millions of people living perfectly chaste lives. Monks, nuns, priests, those called to be single, and those who are widowed. I am not saying every monk does not masturbate. I’m sure some of them do. But you must admit the possibility of at least some members of a community answering fully their call to chastity in whatever form it takes. If a person is truly a homosexual, it is not our place to assume that they are guilty of the sin that is commonly linked with it. If a Catholic, or indeed, anyone else, automatically assumes this of a homosexual, then they must logically assume that all sexual relations are done out of chastity and in sin. (I think I just stumbled across the origins of the Shakers!)
Too many in the Catholic community (my parents included) link behavior with identification. I personally believe that God made certain individuals to hold a sexual attraction to people of the same gender just as much as He made others to hold a sexual attraction to people of the opposite gender. He breathed life individually into every one of us. Who we are is not a product of choice. How we act upon the traits we have, THAT is our choice. The pedophile is reviled because he acted on his thoughts. But I do not believe that every grown adult who is attracted to the idea act on it. There may be pedophiles who have never acted upon it because they know that to do so is wrong. It is not shameful to have a specific orientation. It is shameful to act upon it.
Additionally, the idea of “curing” homosexuality is offensive to anyone with reason in their head. It’s like curing someone of being Caucasian or Mongoloid or Chinese. It’s like “curing” the Romanovs once they were killed. Being gay is like being pregnant–you are or you aren’t. What you do with it is the choice with which you are faced. And it is never our place to judge. Making assumptions puts the power of omniscience in our hands, something only God possesses, and it is definitely not our place to put ourselves equal to God. Someone already tried that and ended with an epic fail.
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JohnMPhilomena
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False - ever hear about repairative therapy? Of course not, because the gay activists will not allow it to be taught in medical school. It goes against their agenda - which is that being gay is normal and should be accepted as such. There is no gay gene. It is a disordered state of mind like which can and should be repaired.
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Bluegoat
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Repairative therapy is not well received because it has a lot of aspects that are more like cult programming than real therapy.
Additionally, there is a lot of good evidence that at least in a large number of cases, homosexuals have a biological basis. For example, autopsies of male homosexuals show that their brain structure is closer to that of a typical woman than that of a typical man.
What the cause of that difference is is unknown. Research into a genetic component is so far inconclusive. Some think it may relate to hormone exposure in the womb. It is even possible it happens after birth as the child grows, but generally this is seen as unlikely by experts in brain development. (Obviously autopsying infants would not be helpful since we can’t identify them as gay or not, and they wouldn’t grow up to compare.)
We also know that other sexual differences can have biological origins, so it doesn’t seem far out to think the same is possible for SSA - there is certainly no reason to discount it. The Church has been pretty silent on the matter, although individuals have opinions.
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Kolbe300
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Very, very little research is required to see that reparative therapy is notoriously unsuccessful. Many kids are being forced to go through it by their parents with horrible consequences. One of the biggest problems is how “cured” is defined. I don’t think I have ever seen successful reparative therapy described as making a person genuinely heterosexual. Instead, they are focused on curing people of the “homosexual lifestyle.” There’s nothing wrong with that, however it’s nothing more than a change in behavior. I don’t have a “homosexual lifestyle” to be cured from. I’ve mentioned before watching two leaders of two different ex-gay ministries in an interview. Both were asked if they still struggle with homosexual attraction. One leader got up and left the interview, upset. Why, if he was cured? The other said, “Of course I do.” That doesn’t sound “cured” to me at all. I live a chaste, Catholic lifestyle. Marrying a woman and having a family won’t make me straight.
You are exactly right. Francis Collins, the lead doctor on the fantastic human genome project (a person completely misquoted by NARTH) has said almost exactly what you posted there. He believes the genetic factors will be discovered in the next 10 years. Is it 100% genetic? Probably not. Does that make it, therefore, reversible? No, it doesn’t.
I believe people like myself are called to love in a different way. We are called to service, to a deep, compassionate, intimate kind of love that has nothing to do with sex. Jesus showed us that transforming love has nothing to do with the bedroom. I am not even remotely ashamed of my sexuality. I was created by God, every single bit of me was created by God. Is God handing out homosexuality to some people? I don’t believe so at all, just like I don’t believe he’s handing out horrible disabilities to people. That, however, makes me *no less *created and no less beautiful. Our God doesn’t have to look past my sexuality to love me. He loves me in spite of NOTHING. That is what homosexually oriented people need to be hearing, to see that they are called to a fulfilling, deep, passionate love. It may not look like marriage, but it is no less beautiful. In fact, it’s the kind of love that can change the world. Just ask Mother Teresa. If that was our message to them, rather than regurgitating “hate the sin, love the sinner” we could actually have a positive impact.
Peace,
Kolbe
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Bluegoat
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You know, I was just thinking; if someone went through therapy to become heterosexual, and married, would that be possible grounds for annulment if the marriage didn’t work out because of related sexual issues?
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