Another Gay Thread

[Frankie_M]

I don’t know if it was you who addressed me or not , But the church teaches against Homosexuality period.You cannot be a true Catholic and participate in such acts. And who are you kidding ?Homosexuals will eventually participate in the acts as well as heterosexuals.Paul would have been much harder on you then I so dont start calling me out of grace it is the act of homosexuality that is and will always pull you out of grace unless you change your life style. Sorry but its the truth.God said to be fertile and multiply .you can’t multiply as a homosexual.
I still recommend help from a priest .I know one that for a period of time was counseling two homosexuals .They came out heterosexual however went to Clemson and met up with a priest over there who told them it was just another alternative lifestyle.The homosexuals were back in the homosexual community later that week.Also read Sodom and Gamorah .God had the whole town burn for those actions.Im not preaching hate Im preaching truth people justifying this here should be ashamed as a catholic of themselves.
you are in my prays ,i was not going to respond again but I received a harsh message from someone who obviously has fallen out of grace .

God Bless you , Frankie

 

[Kolbe300]

I’m just wondering what you meant by “From my own experience, it seems as though the wires were crossed long before puberty.” I’m not saying your wrong, I’m just curious. Topic like this, and other psychologically related things tend to catch my interest (which is why I recently started contemplating switching my major from philosophy and theology to mental health and theology).

Hi bob0bob,

I agree with you, this type of conversation is very interesting because it seems as if everyone’s experience is often times very different. You mentioned feeling your physical attractions lessen when getting closer to males (your football team) etc… I’ve never experienced that kind of thing. In everything I have read and seen similar to the link you posted by that doctor, I’ve never seen the environmental factors as fitting me at all. I had and still have a wonderfully close relationship with my parents (and my entire family, for that matter). The relationship between my dad and I doesn’t fit ANY of the examples I have seen or heard of as being contributing factors. I was never a victim of any type of abuse whether it be physical or emotional. I was athletic, well liked, had many male friends, and never felt as if I didn’t fit in. In other words, I never felt that longing to belong or to be associated with other males.

For me, it seems as if the wires were crossed from the beginning. Whether or not that is “scientifcally” true, I have no idea. It’s just my experience. I had physical attractions well before puberty and well before I knew a thing about sex. While that doctor said she believes the environmental factors lead to the wires becoming crossed, I might argue that the wires being crossed lead to some of those environmental circumstances. It’s one of those, “which came first the chicken or the egg scenarios.” Someday scientists may be able to put their fingers on exactly what it is. In the long run it really doesn’t matter. It is certainly interesting though!

Peace,
Kolbe

 

[mbc22488]

I don’t know if it was you who addressed me or not , But the church teaches against Homosexuality period.You cannot be a true Catholic and participate in such acts. And who are you kidding ?Homosexuals will eventually participate in the acts as well as heterosexuals.Paul would have been much harder on you then I so dont start calling me out of grace it is the act of homosexuality that is and will always pull you out of grace unless you change your life style. Sorry but its the truth.God said to be fertile and multiply .you can’t multiply as a homosexual.
I still recommend help from a priest .I know one that for a period of time was counseling two homosexuals .They came out heterosexual however went to Clemson and met up with a priest over there who told them it was just another alternative lifestyle.The homosexuals were back in the homosexual community later that week.Also read Sodom and Gamorah .God had the whole town burn for those actions.Im not preaching hate Im preaching truth people justifying this here should be ashamed as a catholic of themselves.
you are in my prays ,i was not going to respond again but I received a harsh message from someone who obviously has fallen out of grace .

God Bless you , Frankie

Frankie,

I am concerned for you. Your additions to this discussion board completley ignore the church teachings. I would like to outline some teachings on sexuality from the CCC.

CCC 2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominat sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through teh centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrensically disordered.” They are contary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to teh gift of life. THey do not proceed form a genuine affective and sexual complimentarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

These two excerpts form the catechism clearly put an emphasis on homosexual acts, not on homosexuality itself. Also, the second passage calls homosexuals to chastity. Reproduction is not an issue here. Nobody on this message board disagrees with your statment “You cannot be a true Catholic and participate in such acts.” The focus here is, of course, on the acts.

Also, in regards to the two homosexuals who were"cured". Obviously they were not cured if they turned around and became homosexual again. That type of treatment and therapy probably did irreperable damage to their mental conditiions.

I am sorry if anyone on this discussion board has sent you a PM that is harsh or judgemental. We need to be nurturing a healthy discussion, not condeming each other. That is the whole point of this thread! We must have patience with each other as we continue this discussion.

 

[Kolbe300]

I don’t know if it was you who addressed me or not , But the church teaches against Homosexuality period.You cannot be a true Catholic and participate in such acts. And who are you kidding ?Homosexuals will eventually participate in the acts as well as heterosexuals.Paul would have been much harder on you then I so dont start calling me out of grace it is the act of homosexuality that is and will always pull you out of grace unless you change your life style. Sorry but its the truth.God said to be fertile and multiply .you can’t multiply as a homosexual.
I still recommend help from a priest .I know one that for a period of time was counseling two homosexuals .They came out heterosexual however went to Clemson and met up with a priest over there who told them it was just another alternative lifestyle.The homosexuals were back in the homosexual community later that week.Also read Sodom and Gamorah .God had the whole town burn for those actions.Im not preaching hate Im preaching truth people justifying this here should be ashamed as a catholic of themselves.
you are in my prays ,i was not going to respond again but I received a harsh message from someone who obviously has fallen out of grace .

God Bless you , Frankie

Your thoughts have been duly noted, thanks.

Peace,
Kolbe

 

[StillWondering]

I worry about this gentleman and his family. Though many studies, such as the Kinsey Report, have demonstrated that sexuality is fluid and can change and vary in levels of sexual attraction over time, I do not feel that this man made the right choice. Perhaps he was not a true homosexual, but his sexual feelings were more evenly distributed between the two genders. I do not know, and do not want to speculate on his inner emotions. I worry, however, that this type of “solution” can lead to terrible familial relationships. What will happen to his relationship with his children when one of them stumbles across that article? What about his relationship with his wife should he ever slip up and become a homosexual adulterer? I can only imagine that that would be much more difficult to move past than heterosexual adultry.

Celibacy is the only theologically correct solution to this issue I believe.

I strongly disagree with the idea that a person with SSA should only be celibate and not marry someone of the opposite sex. I do not have SSA but I think of marriage is like a religious vocation, it should be a true choice from true love.

I know reality is not like that in the sense that people in general do not think deeply about love and choose not to wait to have a real relationship. I was one of those people.

However, even if 99% of society fails, I never would assume that remaining 1% fails. The truth is far from almost all do not understand love – a large number do. Look at our religious brothers and sisters and those wonderful married couples. Thus I believe that there are men with SSA and without who marries because of true love that is so deep it totally over shadows physical attraction. It is great when physical attraction walks right along this deep passionate love, but it does not have to. Brothers I’m sure are humans too and it would be hard to find one that is asexual. Yet their spontaneous attraction for women does not at all negate or come into play their deep love for Christ and common goal of brotherly love. I see the same thing in nuns and sisters. And I see the same thing in husbands and wives.

Therefore I strongly believe that if someone has SSA and yet can find that deep love to marry someone of the opposite sex, they should follow that calling. No need to worry about them who live in true love-- instead worry about your own vocation if you need to worry at all.

As an aside, I guess this may not be familiar with the majority of youths in America, but in generations past in Vietnam, many couples (far from most sadly) have been married and lived wonderful loving lives without even considering deeply physical attractiveness. Yes physical attractiveness has always been around but there are many other criteria for a successful relationship.

 

[Nec5]

There are ways to be a sexual being, without even considering sexual activity as the slightest possibility. Everything that we do with our bodies is, in some sense, sexual. (This is, by the way, a very Catholic teaching, as the Theology of the Body expresses).

This sounds like modernist liberal theory, particularly of the French Feminists and their “Writing the Body” approach. To say that “everything we do with our bodies is in some sense sexual” is a gross generalization. By that logic, everything we do is in a sense destructive or creative or you name it.

By the way, the awkwardness among males only became pronounced when homosexuality became normalized and tolerance meant accepting everything. Part of the awkwardness among males is a result of the natural male tendency to seek independence and competition.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This sounds like modernist liberal theory, particularly of the French Feminists and their “Writing the Body” approach. To say that “everything we do with our bodies is in some sense sexual” is a gross generalization. By that logic, everything we do is in a sense destructive or creative or you name it.

That’s not at all the point I was making.

“Sexual” does not mean “pertaining to sex”, in my original sentence. “Sexual” means what it meant from the beginning – it is a division, a sexing. We are born male or female, not both. Our identities – if they are to be integrated to the person God made us to be – must be partially defined by our sexuality (our maleness or femaleness).

I am a man. This is a deeply rooted fact of my nature, one that I must understand if I am to understand myself.

It was of this sense of “sexuality” that I was talking about. It certainly isn’t circumscribed by “sex” (the physical activity).

(By the way, I would say that most of our actions *are *creative or destructive. Is that such an extreme claim?)

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I am blessed - I have been married to the love of my life for 24 years now. Before marrying, I had another life. I was a militant lesbian in a series of relationships and I was convinced that the lesbian lifestyle was for me.
Somehow, God changed my heart without me even realizing it. First, I had a yearning to be like “everyone else” and have a “normal” life. I noticed that all my gay friends were basically promiscuous (with a few exceptions) and had lives that were like soap operas; melodramatic is a good description. I did not want that for myself. I wanted a “one-and-only” and I knew without a doubt that I wanted children.
I considered carefully what I wanted for my future children. I realized I wanted the best for them, so they would need a father. That threw me for a loop for a while, because I wasn’t attracted to men at all. What to do?
Well, God has a way of turning things around. Along came a man that was a bit older than I was, experienced, sophisticated, with a great career, and clearly in love with me. I was wary at first, but decided to go on a few dates to see what would happen. My friends were stunned. But this guy was so nice that my friends loved him instantly! It took me a while to trust him. It took me even longer to realize that I loved him. When I realized it, I was absolutely gob-smacked. Me? Love a MAN? How crazy!
He was very patient with me. I eventually confided in him my past life, and he accepted me completely. He was understanding, but persistent that he wanted to marry me.
By this time, I had no feelings for anyone other than him, and I was madly in love. So we got married, which was the happiest day of my life, and ended up having the babies I wanted so badly (four in all).
I have had problems with my old self rearing up and wanting to take over, and I will freely admit that. There are times that I have felt bereft because of lesbian feelings. There have been times that I have been sorely tempted. Friendships with women are tricky at times, because of my past.
What I focus on is that I love my husband and will not do anything to break up our marriage. I also rely on my Catholic faith to get me through.
Marriage for homosexuals is not out of the question. There does have to be sexual desire, however, or the marriage will never work. But I am convinced that God can turn that tap on. He did for me, and I was as lesbian as it gets.
With God, anything is possible!

That is an amazing testimony! Praise be to God,and thank you for sharing!!

 

[Nec5]

That’s not at all the point I was making.

“Sexual” does not mean “pertaining to sex”, in my original sentence.

I still don’t see how “everything is sexual” even if you are referring to sexual acts or male vs. female biological classifications.

As to the original poster. fornication and adultery used to be/should be serious offenses. Unfortunately, today’s modernist sense has diluted that judgment. Very few people consider divorce or fornication to be sins at all, and this includes most Catholics I know. In fact, the word “fornication” has taken on an old time comical connotation and is viewed with derision. This is why marriage is in its current sorry state. Gay marriage and gay sex are more obvious and abnormal acts.

None of it should be excused.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

I am blessed - I have been married to the love of my life for 24 years now. Before marrying, I had another life. I was a militant lesbian in a series of relationships and I was convinced that the lesbian lifestyle was for me.
Somehow, God changed my heart without me even realizing it. First, I had a yearning to be like “everyone else” and have a “normal” life. I noticed that all my gay friends were basically promiscuous (with a few exceptions) and had lives that were like soap operas; melodramatic is a good description. I did not want that for myself. I wanted a “one-and-only” and I knew without a doubt that I wanted children.
I considered carefully what I wanted for my future children. I realized I wanted the best for them, so they would need a father. That threw me for a loop for a while, because I wasn’t attracted to men at all. What to do?
Well, God has a way of turning things around. Along came a man that was a bit older than I was, experienced, sophisticated, with a great career, and clearly in love with me. I was wary at first, but decided to go on a few dates to see what would happen. My friends were stunned. But this guy was so nice that my friends loved him instantly! It took me a while to trust him. It took me even longer to realize that I loved him. When I realized it, I was absolutely gob-smacked. Me? Love a MAN? How crazy!
He was very patient with me. I eventually confided in him my past life, and he accepted me completely. He was understanding, but persistent that he wanted to marry me.
By this time, I had no feelings for anyone other than him, and I was madly in love. So we got married, which was the happiest day of my life, and ended up having the babies I wanted so badly (four in all).
I have had problems with my old self rearing up and wanting to take over, and I will freely admit that. There are times that I have felt bereft because of lesbian feelings. There have been times that I have been sorely tempted. Friendships with women are tricky at times, because of my past.
What I focus on is that I love my husband and will not do anything to break up our marriage. I also rely on my Catholic faith to get me through.
Marriage for homosexuals is not out of the question. There does have to be sexual desire, however, or the marriage will never work. But I am convinced that God can turn that tap on. He did for me, and I was as lesbian as it gets.
With God, anything is possible!

Musician,

What a beautiful story. May God continue to Bless you as much He already has.

Your story gives hope to those in this struggle. And whether or not all same sex attraction is eliminated or not is not the issue. As long as you are attracted to your spouse and are faithful then how is that different than any other married couple who experience attraction outside of the marriage.

John Marie Philomena

 

[Bluegoat]

Everyone, I have noticed, seems to agre that it would be a bad idea to marry if there was really no sexual attraction or reasonable hope that there might be.

 

[JReducation]

Everyone, I have noticed, seems to agre that it would be a bad idea to marry if there was really no sexual attraction or reasonable hope that there might be.

If there is no sexual attraction the validity of the marriage would have to be called into question, since sexual relations are the means of consumating the marriage, giving of each other to each other and of opening oneself to the gift of new life. Even when there is no sexual attraction the individuals can engage in sexual acts, but are these acts of love and self-giving? That’s a tough question. Not being a canonist, I won’t dare to venture into the territory. But those who are intending marriage should certain discuss it with their spiritual directors before proceeding.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bluegoat]

If there is no sexual attraction the validity of the marriage would have to be called into question, since sexual relations are the means of consumating the marriage, giving of each other to each other and of opening oneself to the gift of new life. Even when there is no sexual attraction the individuals can engage in sexual acts, but are these acts of love and self-giving? That’s a tough question. Not being a canonist, I won’t dare to venture into the territory. But those who are intending marriage should certain discuss it with their spiritual directors before proceeding.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, it could be sticky, because it sometimes happens that sexual attraction was there, and is lost for some reason. I do think in such a situation that sex can still be about love and self-giving, but can easily become a focus for resentment.

In any case, sexuality is an important unitive parts of marriage I think, which is one thing that differentiates it from friendship.

 

[mbc22488]

If there is no sexual attraction the validity of the marriage would have to be called into question, since sexual relations are the means of consumating the marriage, giving of each other to each other and of opening oneself to the gift of new life. Even when there is no sexual attraction the individuals can engage in sexual acts, but are these acts of love and self-giving? That’s a tough question. Not being a canonist, I won’t dare to venture into the territory. But those who are intending marriage should certain discuss it with their spiritual directors before proceeding.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

You raise a good point here. Misdirected homosexuals who are “cured” and them marry may find later that they were not “cured”. I feel that this would be ground for annulment. Among things like incest and misrepresentation, the Church will annul marrages for

• Refusal to consumate

• Psychological inability to "love" the other person

• Lack of knowledge or understanding of the implications of marriage

• Duress, or being forced to marry because of outside pressures
  All of these things are elements that a homosexual may bring to the marriage and would be grounds for annulment.

 

[StillWondering]

If there is no sexual attraction the validity of the marriage would have to be called into question, since sexual relations are the means of consumating the marriage, giving of each other to each other and of opening oneself to the gift of new life. Even when there is no sexual attraction the individuals can engage in sexual acts, but are these acts of love and self-giving? That’s a tough question. Not being a canonist, I won’t dare to venture into the territory. But those who are intending marriage should certain discuss it with their spiritual directors before proceeding.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I remember reading a post from Jimmy Akins about Josephine Marriage (hopefully I have the spelling correct) are still valid in that the couple exchange the rights for sexual intimacy without intention of acting upon those rights. In this case sexual attraction seems to be a secondary concern over the mutual giving of each other in a loving matter with or without sexual relations.

In addition I believe that heterosexual couples where one or both of the couple had issues with SSA in the past can still live fulfilling sexual marriage or if sex is not an interest but willing to share the rights to sexual intimacy are great. I also believe the number could be a lot higher than what society as a whole expects because if we learn to truly love each other and conform to God’s system implemented at creation it seems logically possible. Years ago I would not feel confident to suggest or speak against the though of true loving marriages, but the more I learn about love the more I see love as the source of decisions instead of being a element within a decision.

 

[Bluegoat]

I remember reading a post from Jimmy Akins about Josephine Marriage (hopefully I have the spelling correct) are still valid in that the couple exchange the rights for sexual intimacy without intention of acting upon those rights. In this case sexual attraction seems to be a secondary concern over the mutual giving of each other in a loving matter with or without sexual relations.

In addition I believe that heterosexual couples where one or both of the couple had issues with SSA in the past can still live fulfilling sexual marriage or if sex is not an interest but willing to share the rights to sexual intimacy are great. I also believe the number could be a lot higher than what society as a whole expects because if we learn to truly love each other and conform to God’s system implemented at creation it seems logically possible. Years ago I would not feel confident to suggest or speak against the though of true loving marriages, but the more I learn about love the more I see love as the source of decisions instead of being a element within a decision.

I think a couple could have a happy marriage without the expectation of sexual intimacy, if that was well understood by both in advance. But - I suppose I would wonder to what end? The only one I could think of would be to raise children they had adopted, but even then I think that could be done without them being married. Why not simply maintain an intimate friendship if companionship is desired?

I generally think that agreeing, long term, to sexual intimacy where there is no sexual attraction on one side could be a very bad idea. I think it could lead to resentment and hurt feelings very easily.

 

[JReducation]

I have seen older people get married who obviuosly are not very sexually active, if at all. But there is a genuine attraction there. I just don’t know about a younger couple where one party does not have the sexual attraction and the other party does. There is something umjust here. I’m not an expert of these matters. I wish I knew more about canon law, because this is really a canonical question, not a question for an internet forum. My superior is a canonist. I’m going to ask him about this. I’m curious too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[StillWondering]

I think a couple could have a happy marriage without the expectation of sexual intimacy, if that was well understood by both in advance. But - I suppose I would wonder to what end? The only one I could think of would be to raise children they had adopted, but even then I think that could be done without them being married. Why not simply maintain an intimate friendship if companionship is desired?

I generally think that agreeing, long term, to sexual intimacy where there is no sexual attraction on one side could be a very bad idea. I think it could lead to resentment and hurt feelings very easily.

For those couples that go into the relationship with this understanding, the make the marriage commitment to be exclusive and to show each other their love and affections.

Sexual pleasure if it is not done as a fully giving gesture then yeah it could lead to resentment. But we are all called to love fully and that includes sexual love in our relationships where it is appropriate. What about a couple where the husband has HIV? He can try to use a condom but there is still a risk of shortening his wife’s life span by spreading the disease and is going against Church teachings. What is the right thing for him to do. Well, they would have to abstain from sex and certain sexual activities that can spread HIV. It would be very hard if sex was expected, but true love will sacrifice for each other and find alternative ways.

Love can hard. And having SSA does not mean one cannot love =).

 

[Crumpy]

The goal of this post is to explore the nature of sin and our own judgemental nature. Let me pose a different question.

Do you think that parishoners judge homosexuals more quickly than heterosexuals for the same actions?

You seem fairly capable of answering your own questions. As far as parish life is concerned, there’s really nothing to discuss about homosexuality, except from the standpoint of accepting people who have that orientation and, as scripture says, helping them to carry that burden – if the parishioners were so enlightened about such things.

Sure, there are very strong cultural anti-gay sentiments and feelings, just as there were strong, knee-jerk, monolithic prejudices about race. Having lived through the change regarding race, I can see clearly the same type of intolerance of people with homosexual orientation.

I think the Church is struggling with developing ways to accomodate people with same-sex orientation, inasmuch as Biblical revelation condemns the manifestations of that.
Socially, I suspect that most people do not like to see overtly homosexual conduct and are personally very uncomfortable with it.

I can’t run with this idea much more without saying that I think same-sex orientation is a disease, and I pray that God will soon give us a cure. The new area of study of the epigenome is probably the area (the control of genes) that will give the insights and eventually possibly a cure for this involuntary sexual orientation. When the scientists figure out this secret of chemistry, it will be an enormous breakthrough for a lot of reasons.

A vaccine was approved a couple years ago for the prevention of shingles disorders. I just took the vaccine yesterday. I don’t want to get shingles, or the rarer related disorder (which my uncle died from) herpes encephalitis.

If a cure for same-sex orientation was that easy, how many people would elect to remain homosexual and homosexually active?

Discussing this rationally (if I may claim that) is a way to educate people and to overcome prejudices. I think that’s what this thread is about, prejudices.

I think a lot of people object to having homosexuality shoved in their faces. To some extent, people need to be sensitive to this problem and sensitive to those afflicted with it. But, overtly offensive behavior is not welcome and probably never will be.

 

[JReducation]

Vatican II referred to the Catholic Church as “Lumen Gentium”, the Light Among People. But the Church can only be a light, if every Catholic makes an effort to be a light. This is where charity enters the picture. The very idea of discrimination against someone because of their sexual orientation (not their behavior) is a violation of charity. On the other hand, shoving one’s sexual orientation in other people’s faces is equally uncharitable, because it makes people unnecesarily uncomfortable. Charity becomes the means to being a beacon among men or a light in society. If we can show the world how we can live, work and worship side by side, regardless of our differences, including sexual orientation, we can begin to be a light to the world in this particular area of life.

Part of the problem that has to be overcome is the violation of privacy on both sides of the aisle. No one has the need to reveal his or her sexual orientation to the world. That’s not necessary to be an effective member of a parish or a family. On the other hand, people need not go on a hunt to find out who is gay and who is straight either. Both behaviors are serioius violations against privacy. Privacy is part of human dignity. When that is violated, human dignity is violated, be it by the person who opens up a can of worms by exposing his or her sexual presference or the person who gossips about the sexual preference of another.

Finally, all of us need to get past the stereotypes. Homosexual people are not pedophiles. Pedophilia is a mental disorder that can occur to people of any sexual orientation. Homosexual people are not evil people. Every human being sins. The heterosexual who divorces and remarries also sins; but we do not often label such people as evil. There is a difference between being a sinner and being evil. That stereotype has to be laid to rest. Heterosexual people are not automatically holier than those who are homosexual. That’s another stereotype. Afterall, it is heterosexual coupls who support and seek out abortion. Gay people do not impregnate each other and then seek out abortion. To close, I would say that homosexual people must understand and accept that a sam-sex orienation is not a license to be promiscuous. That’s another stereotyp. Promiscuity has nothing to do with sexual orientaton. The sexual orientation is often used as an excuse for inappropriate choices.

We must be the light to the world that we are called to be. But charity, privacy and laying aside stereotypes must be embraced first and Catholics have an obligation to be the first to embrace these virtuous practices.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF