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slyboots
Guest
Sorry. I am confused.
I was under the impression Veiling is to cover the hair…with a scarf, mantilla, hat etc. I have not experienced any catholic worship where women had to cover their faces.
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I was under the impression Veiling is to cover the hair…with a scarf, mantilla, hat etc. I have not experienced any catholic worship where women had to cover their faces.
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L2P2
Guest
Veiling is covering the face. Think of Jackie Kennedy at JFK’s funeral, and it was common for women and girls at Catholic masses up until the late 1960s. I don’t remember whether it was just for Holy Days or regular Masses, but I have pictures of both me and my mother wearing small white veils, probably at Easter. Girls wore them too for First Holy Communion.Sorry. I am confused.
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slyboots
Guest
Widows often veil the face to keep from showing their tears and sometimes their lack of them. Hats used to have illusion veils on them but I think that was a fashion statement and not mandated by the Church.
As for first communion the litttle girls I knew and have seen in pictures had head coverings…no facial covers at all. And I am 56 years old. Was this a practice up north? Or maybe a cultural practice?
fisheaters.com/theveil.html
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GodIsGracious
Guest
If you have a sewing machine, consider making one yourself. They’re terribly inexpensive. Lace from a fabric store has a “finished” edge to it. You only need about a yard and you can cut it just about a couple of inches longer or wider than you need. Get some lace edging and sew it to the cut edge to finish it.
I made mine for about five bucks - actually less because I still have a bunch of lace left over and got my fabric on sale. As I was sewing I liked knowing I was doing something of my own, special, for God.
If sewing or cutting in a curve is a challenge, cut the fabric lace into a triangle. Remember, lace fabric from a bolt usually has a “finished” edge already so that’s one side you don’t have to worry about. I have that part framing my face. If you don’t have a sewing machine, I suppose you could hand sew, but considering the fabric it can be a bit of a challenge but it is not impossible. I tried to do this because I didn’t want to drag out my sewing machine. Ultimately I did because it would have taken longer to hand sew than to drag out the sewing machine, set it up, sew the lace on to the edge of the lace fabric, then put it way. Took about 20 minutes total.
I made mine for about five bucks - actually less because I still have a bunch of lace left over and got my fabric on sale. As I was sewing I liked knowing I was doing something of my own, special, for God.
If sewing or cutting in a curve is a challenge, cut the fabric lace into a triangle. Remember, lace fabric from a bolt usually has a “finished” edge already so that’s one side you don’t have to worry about. I have that part framing my face. If you don’t have a sewing machine, I suppose you could hand sew, but considering the fabric it can be a bit of a challenge but it is not impossible. I tried to do this because I didn’t want to drag out my sewing machine. Ultimately I did because it would have taken longer to hand sew than to drag out the sewing machine, set it up, sew the lace on to the edge of the lace fabric, then put it way. Took about 20 minutes total.
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L2P2
Guest
I think that was probably what I was wearing.
I’m in my mid-forties and grew up in the NY city area, where some Catholic customs, I believe, lingered longer than in other parts of the country, probably because there were more recent European immigrants. My mother was veiled for her First Communion, which would have been an extension of the practice (and maybe underlying purpose) to girls.
The English translation of St. Paul says women should veil when praying, which leads me to think covering the face. I would be curious a.) if my reading is right; and b.) to know what the Greek and Vulgate Latin says, but I don’t have time right now to check.
But, in the end, the Magisterium seems to have finessed the interpretation, and I’m not unhappy about it.
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slyboots
Guest
In the Vulgate it appears to mean covering the head not covering( veiling) the face.
11 5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. omnis autem mulier orans aut prophetans non velato capite deturpat caput suum unum est enim atque si decalvetur
11 6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. nam si non velatur mulier et tondeatur si vero turpe est mulieri tonderi aut decalvari velet caput suum
11 7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. vir quidem non debet velare caput quoniam imago et gloria est Dei mulier autem gloria viri est
11 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. non enim vir ex muliere est sed mulier ex viro
11 9 For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. etenim non est creatus vir propter mulierem sed mulier propter virum
11 10 Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. ideo debet mulier potestatem habere supra caput propter angelos
11 11 But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. verumtamen neque vir sine muliere neque mulier sine viro in Domino
11 12 For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. nam sicut mulier de viro ita et vir per mulierem omnia autem ex Deo
11 13 You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? vos ipsi iudicate decet mulierem non velatam orare Deum
11 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? nec ipsa natura docet vos quod vir quidem si comam nutriat ignominia est illi
11 15 But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. mulier vero si comam nutriat gloria est illi quoniam capilli pro velamine ei dati sunt
latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=7&c=11
11 5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. omnis autem mulier orans aut prophetans non velato capite deturpat caput suum unum est enim atque si decalvetur
11 6 For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. nam si non velatur mulier et tondeatur si vero turpe est mulieri tonderi aut decalvari velet caput suum
11 7 The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. vir quidem non debet velare caput quoniam imago et gloria est Dei mulier autem gloria viri est
11 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. non enim vir ex muliere est sed mulier ex viro
11 9 For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. etenim non est creatus vir propter mulierem sed mulier propter virum
11 10 Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. ideo debet mulier potestatem habere supra caput propter angelos
11 11 But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. verumtamen neque vir sine muliere neque mulier sine viro in Domino
11 12 For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. nam sicut mulier de viro ita et vir per mulierem omnia autem ex Deo
11 13 You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? vos ipsi iudicate decet mulierem non velatam orare Deum
11 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? nec ipsa natura docet vos quod vir quidem si comam nutriat ignominia est illi
11 15 But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. mulier vero si comam nutriat gloria est illi quoniam capilli pro velamine ei dati sunt
latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=1&b=7&c=11
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lizaanne
Guest
Where did you get this idea? I’ve been through at least a hundred of these head covering/veiling discussions on this forum and I’ve never hear any Catholic consider the term “veiling” to mean covering the face. Perhaps in some other country, but when the term is used within the context of attending Mass, I have never heard it used in that way.
Where did you ever hear of Catholic women covering their faces (aside from a mourning or wedding veil - totally different topic)?
~Liza
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mariyka
Guest
So, would this be interpreted :
If a woman doesn’t wear a head covering, her hair should be cut short. If she is ashamed to have short hair, or to be bald, she should cover her hair.
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slyboots
Guest
Interesting comparing the time in which Paul lived to that of the 1960’s forward after Vatican II. Women stopped covering. And a lot of them (not all of course) may have done it as a rebellion against authority. Some one will probably tell me this information is not from a Catholic site. Good teaching can show up anywhere. God is not limited.
“In the early Gentile church, as it is in many cultures today, veiling was a symbol representing submission to authority. By women removing their veils, they (at the very least) were mimicking the rebellious pagan women of their day that removed their veils to show their disdain for male headship. It is likely that some of the Corinthian women weren’t just mimicking a fad, though, but were actually showing their own disdain for male headship. In doing so, they were revealing a rebellion in their hearts toward their husbands and toward God, and rebellion is the very sin that caused one-third of the angels to fall. While the veil was merely a symbolic custom, the rebellion in the heart that led to rejecting its use was quite real. Paul’s actual concern here is not about hair, or even veils for that matter, but about spiritual authority and the necessity of recognizing it in the Christian life.” actseighteen.com/articles/uncuthair.htm
“In the early Gentile church, as it is in many cultures today, veiling was a symbol representing submission to authority. By women removing their veils, they (at the very least) were mimicking the rebellious pagan women of their day that removed their veils to show their disdain for male headship. It is likely that some of the Corinthian women weren’t just mimicking a fad, though, but were actually showing their own disdain for male headship. In doing so, they were revealing a rebellion in their hearts toward their husbands and toward God, and rebellion is the very sin that caused one-third of the angels to fall. While the veil was merely a symbolic custom, the rebellion in the heart that led to rejecting its use was quite real. Paul’s actual concern here is not about hair, or even veils for that matter, but about spiritual authority and the necessity of recognizing it in the Christian life.” actseighteen.com/articles/uncuthair.htm
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slyboots
Guest
“But those who belong to the world have also to consider how they may in these things please their wives if they be husbands, their husbands if they be wives; with this limitation, that it is not becoming even in married women to uncover their hair, since the apostle commands women to keep their heads covered.” St Augustine in a letter to Possidius
“.” But if to be shaven is always dishonorable, it is plain too that being uncovered is always a reproach. And not even with this only was he content, but added again, saying, “The woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.” He signifies that not at the time of prayer only but also continually, she ought to be covered. But with regard to the man, it is no longer about covering but about wearing long hair, that he so forms his discourse. To be covered he then only forbids, when a man is praying; but the wearing long hair he discourages at all times. Wherefore, as touching the woman, he said, “But if she be not veiled, let her also be shorn;” so likewise touching the man, “If he have long hair, it is a dishonor unto him.” He said not, “if he be covered” but, “if he have long hair,” Wherefore also he said at the beginning, “Every man praying or prophesying, having any thing on his head, dishonoreth his head.” He said not, “covered,” but “having any thing on his head;” signifying that even though he pray with the head bare, yet if he have long hair, he is like to one covered. “For the hair,” saith he, “is given for a covering.”
Ver. 6. “But if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.” St John Chrysostom HOMILY XXVI. ON THE VEILING OF WOMEN. 1 Cor. 11:2.
Now please don’t get upset with me about this. I am just quoting great saints on this subject.
“.” But if to be shaven is always dishonorable, it is plain too that being uncovered is always a reproach. And not even with this only was he content, but added again, saying, “The woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.” He signifies that not at the time of prayer only but also continually, she ought to be covered. But with regard to the man, it is no longer about covering but about wearing long hair, that he so forms his discourse. To be covered he then only forbids, when a man is praying; but the wearing long hair he discourages at all times. Wherefore, as touching the woman, he said, “But if she be not veiled, let her also be shorn;” so likewise touching the man, “If he have long hair, it is a dishonor unto him.” He said not, “if he be covered” but, “if he have long hair,” Wherefore also he said at the beginning, “Every man praying or prophesying, having any thing on his head, dishonoreth his head.” He said not, “covered,” but “having any thing on his head;” signifying that even though he pray with the head bare, yet if he have long hair, he is like to one covered. “For the hair,” saith he, “is given for a covering.”
Ver. 6. “But if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.” St John Chrysostom HOMILY XXVI. ON THE VEILING OF WOMEN. 1 Cor. 11:2.
Now please don’t get upset with me about this. I am just quoting great saints on this subject.
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GodIsGracious
Guest
From what I understand, I think it is cultural. I took “veiling” to mean simply covering the head, like you. But I can see where others would take “veiling” to mean covering the face.Where did you get this idea? I’ve been through at least a hundred of these head covering/veiling discussions on this forum and I’ve never hear any Catholic consider the term “veiling” to mean covering the face. Perhaps in some other country, but when the term is used within the context of attending Mass, I have never heard it used in that way.
Where did you ever hear of Catholic women covering their faces (aside from a mourning or wedding veil - totally different topic)?
~Liza
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slyboots
Guest
[/ATTACH]
The second picture is of Jordanian Catholic women.
The second picture is of Jordanian Catholic women.
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Humbled1
Guest
Another slight tangent… we always cover our heads for TLM, but I have difficulty doing it for the NO mass. I, too, am worried about a “holier than thou” appearance, but I think it’s more because I have a toddler who has just come into his own and is, at times, rambunctious during mass. I feel like I’d be doing a disservice to the re-veiling movement if people see us covering and yet also disrupting mass. I’m not really sure what to do, so we’ve maintained a double standard, veiling for one type of mass (because we still blend that way), but not for the other. 
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slyboots
Guest
Just a thought…Another slight tangent… we always cover our heads for TLM, but I have difficulty doing it for the NO mass. I, too, am worried about a “holier than thou” appearance, but I think it’s more because I have a toddler who has just come into his own and is, at times, rambunctious during mass. I feel like I’d be doing a disservice to the re-veiling movement if people see us covering and yet also disrupting mass. I’m not really sure what to do, so we’ve maintained a double standard, veiling for one type of mass (because we still blend that way), but not for the other.
Mary the mother of our Savior wore a veil. Her child probably went everywhere with her. Women, at least righteous women, generally had a veil on all the time. Her toddler sat in her lap and played as did all children sit in mother’s lap while mother prayed. Children are rambunctious often. I suspect the little Lord Jesus played with His mother’s veil while she prayed, worked, and listened to her husband’s news of the day. I imagine she simply readjusted as needed as often as needed and gently but firmly taught Him how to behave.
Maybe this is another time we should look to her for instruction.
Other people in the congregation may at present notice a small child playing on his mother’s lap during mass. We are Catholics. Children are gifts from God for us. The others who are bothered need to expand their custody of the eyes, ears and mind if it bothers them. And of course if the child gets completely unruly do what you would normally do.
Keep trying. I wear my cover at every NO mass. My 2 year old grandson loves to crawl back and forth playing with everything. Once he got used to the covers he no longer is interested in playing with them.
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eiram
Guest
Hello Ladies,
A veil is only to cover a woman’s hair in church, nothing else. I have no idea who got confused about the word “veil” and asked about “veiling”. It is very simple, a veil is ment to cover a woman’s hair in church. It can be kept in place with one bobby-pin or she can tie it snuggly under her chin.
eiram
A veil is only to cover a woman’s hair in church, nothing else. I have no idea who got confused about the word “veil” and asked about “veiling”. It is very simple, a veil is ment to cover a woman’s hair in church. It can be kept in place with one bobby-pin or she can tie it snuggly under her chin.
eiram
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slyboots
Guest
[/ATTACH]
I think what the person was referring to was veiling on hats. Women used to wear facial veils on their hats even into the 1970s. The church was not referring to these I do not believe. They were for fashion and to shade the face from sun and keep bugs off.
I think what the person was referring to was veiling on hats. Women used to wear facial veils on their hats even into the 1970s. The church was not referring to these I do not believe. They were for fashion and to shade the face from sun and keep bugs off.
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slyboots
Guest
[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
In the pattern there is a strange looking cover with curly-ques on it. “Alien girl” maybe?The blond in sunglasses…that’s my style. That’s how I cover most weeks at mass.
In the pattern there is a strange looking cover with curly-ques on it. “Alien girl” maybe?The blond in sunglasses…that’s my style. That’s how I cover most weeks at mass.
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lizaanne
Guest
Consider WHY you cover your head at all. If it is because Christ is present there before you in the Eucharist, then is He any less present at a NO Mass? Examine the reasons why you cover your head. You will find that they apply regardless of what Mass you are attending. Soon your desire to cover for the right reasons will overshadow your discomfort over covering in any situation where Christ is before you.Another slight tangent… we always cover our heads for TLM, but I have difficulty doing it for the NO mass. I, too, am worried about a “holier than thou” appearance, but I think it’s more because I have a toddler who has just come into his own and is, at times, rambunctious during mass. I feel like I’d be doing a disservice to the re-veiling movement if people see us covering and yet also disrupting mass. I’m not really sure what to do, so we’ve maintained a double standard, veiling for one type of mass (because we still blend that way), but not for the other.
Just think - if Jesus appeared to you and everyone else in the grocery store, would you act normally and just continue choosing the right bunch of bannanas because that’s what those around you were doing? My guess is that you would not - you, like me, would probably fall to your knees in worship, and I personally would wish I could be covering myself in His presence.
TLM - NO ---- it makes no difference. Jesus is just as present at one as He is at another. He should be given the same degree of respect and honor regardless.
~Liza
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slyboots
Guest
Best anecdote I have heard lately…
Muslim: You say that you believe that God is in that box? (Tabernacle)
Catholic: Yes, Body Soul and Divinity.
Muslim: And all you do is genuflect?
Many thanks to the poster who put this on a thread. This really hit me. If we really truly believe we have access to God, Body Soul and Divinity, genuflecting is really the least we can do. Covering our heads seems a small thing when through the Epistle to the Corinthians He tells us as women it is the right thing to do. He speaks through Paul very clearly.
If we believe what we say we believe, then we can not possibly offer enough reverence. So whatever He asks me to do, He will give me the ability to do. I will veil my head and my heart. I will submit to His authority.
If the baby needs attention, yes, I will give it. He made me a mother and grandmother and He knows babies very well. But I can teach the child how to behave in mass partly by my actions. Already my grandson leaves my scarf alone. It is my Jesus scarf and not to play with.
We attend NO masses. That is what is offered at our parish. And I cover my head and I try my best to give all my reverence (and as much attention as the baby will allow) to the God who deigned to come as a child and sat on His veiled mother’s lap and played.
Muslim: You say that you believe that God is in that box? (Tabernacle)
Catholic: Yes, Body Soul and Divinity.
Muslim: And all you do is genuflect?
Many thanks to the poster who put this on a thread. This really hit me. If we really truly believe we have access to God, Body Soul and Divinity, genuflecting is really the least we can do. Covering our heads seems a small thing when through the Epistle to the Corinthians He tells us as women it is the right thing to do. He speaks through Paul very clearly.
If we believe what we say we believe, then we can not possibly offer enough reverence. So whatever He asks me to do, He will give me the ability to do. I will veil my head and my heart. I will submit to His authority.
If the baby needs attention, yes, I will give it. He made me a mother and grandmother and He knows babies very well. But I can teach the child how to behave in mass partly by my actions. Already my grandson leaves my scarf alone. It is my Jesus scarf and not to play with.
We attend NO masses. That is what is offered at our parish. And I cover my head and I try my best to give all my reverence (and as much attention as the baby will allow) to the God who deigned to come as a child and sat on His veiled mother’s lap and played.
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Gertabelle
Guest
I love that bottom picture. I would feel much more comfortable in something like that rather than a lace mantilla (even though the mantilla does come from my culture
).Is this just a piece of cloth? Where is this picture from?
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