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LionHeart777
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It seems odd to me that the RCC is a nation. Anyone can explain how it became a nation and how this was what Christ wanted.
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Randy_Carson
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Are you referring to the fact that Vatican City is an sovereign state?
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yellowbird
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Now you’ve got me curious… where did you hear the Church refered to as a “nation?”
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LionHeart777
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sorry 2 confuse, yes I guess I meant that Vatican is a State. Was it once a Kingdom after fall of Western Rome? Or Papal States or something? I think it has a place at the UN also, no? this seems odd to me
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Randy_Carson
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guanophore
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I would have to understand what you mean by “nation”. Is that comparable to a “kingdom”?
It seems odd that the Church should own property, or that delegates should be sent around the world?
It is a mistake to equate the presence of Christian influence in the secular domain with “nation”. We are a nation of kings and priests to our God. We are in the world, but not “of” it. We are to be salt and light to the world.
The Vatican are the corporate offices that organize light and salt distribution. But the Church is the Body of Christ, it is mystical.
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tiggylou
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You certainly have a lot of questions…
…May I ask why you want to ‘convert’ from being a protestant?
…May I ask why you want to ‘convert’ from being a protestant?
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LionHeart777
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I want to know the Truth, want to follow Apostolic Christianity whether it lies in Protestantism or Catholicism. Are you protestant?
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tiggylou
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Yes I am protestant. And as Martin Luther said…the truth lies in the Word of God…if it isn’t in Scripture, which is the God breathed Word of God (2 Tim 3:16), why believe it? Would you rather believe in the Word of God, or tradition? I agree with a lot of the RC tradition, but I think it is so important in looking through the Scriptures and actually going back in the Traditions to see where the Tradition actually started before believing it.
I am in my last year of a theology degree and looking at why Luther split from the RC concerning indulgences, and I am finding it so interesting to see the differences between the RC and Protestant churches. May I suggest for some ‘light’ reading, reading some of Luther’s writing, the Council of Trent, and then the Joint Declaration of 1999. It gives me great encouragement that the Lutheran church and RC are looking for ways to reconcile the split of the two churches, but there is much ground to be covered.
…but I find your questions very interesting! and pray you find the answers to your questions and that you have a peace in it. Whether it is protestant, Catholic or Orthodox…it is one Lord, Jesus Christ that is worshipped, and I personally think that so many people are going to be amazed, when they meet Jesus face to face with the things that they thought were truth and were infact heresy…and vice versa. But don’t put an institution in the path of God…the church institution, whatever name it goes by, is in place for humanity, not because God needs to be governed.
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mark_a
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Please be sure to check out the moral theology differences between Luther’s beliefs and the beliefs of modern-day Lutheranism.
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LionHeart777
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greetings Tiggy Lou,
I would’ve considered myself a 4pt Calvinist–5 oints sometimes always wrestled w/ Limited Atonement. It is only recently that I have considered RCC or Orthodoxy…even Lutheranism I still consider since that is an easier jump. What has me really thinking right now is the “pure sacrifice” in Malachi, and what the Early Church believed/wrote. As somebody who considered my self a Baptityrean (Baptist/Presbyterean) in Theology, I obviously have a lot of “protests” and a lot to sort out. I always looked at the Lord’s Supper as symbolic only (something Lutheranism rejects.) One of the biggest “protests” for me is that I still believe in sola fide (obviously reconsidering it though.) Another thing I’m questioning right now on the other side is if Protestants should’ve dropped books that the early Church quoted from and that both East/West Catholics hold as inspired.
Thanks 4 the kind words and God bless!
Nick
Nick
I would’ve considered myself a 4pt Calvinist–5 oints sometimes always wrestled w/ Limited Atonement. It is only recently that I have considered RCC or Orthodoxy…even Lutheranism I still consider since that is an easier jump. What has me really thinking right now is the “pure sacrifice” in Malachi, and what the Early Church believed/wrote. As somebody who considered my self a Baptityrean (Baptist/Presbyterean) in Theology, I obviously have a lot of “protests” and a lot to sort out. I always looked at the Lord’s Supper as symbolic only (something Lutheranism rejects.) One of the biggest “protests” for me is that I still believe in sola fide (obviously reconsidering it though.) Another thing I’m questioning right now on the other side is if Protestants should’ve dropped books that the early Church quoted from and that both East/West Catholics hold as inspired.
Thanks 4 the kind words and God bless!
Nick
Nick
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tiggylou
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I don’t know about the pure sacrifice thing in Malachi…but you have me interested so I will read it tonight!
I agree with sola fide myself…and do think that Luther was right at the time that he was arguing it, as it is by faith that we are saved not by worked. However, the problem with the Protestant faith in this, and where I think the RC church are better (although at times go too far and it becomes a work), is that they think that just because they have faith it doesn;t matter what you do. But this is not true, as the Book of James (i think!?!) shows, that faith without works is not possible. But it is not that one is justified by works, but that the works are an outworking of your faith, and the outworking is love which produces ‘good works’…if that makes sense. In the joint Declaration, the Lutherans try and explain this to the RC’s, as the faith v works was a big issue…it is not a big issue in terms of doctrine at the top since the JD, but it is yet to trinkle down to the lay person.
I too believe that Lord’s Supper to be symbolic. As he was sacrificed once for all, not repeatedly (heb 7:27; 9:28; 10:1). This is an issue of transubstantiantion, which even protestants disagree over!
As for the canonical books…the canon was actually ‘closed’ around the 4th century by Athanasius, and that is the Bible that Protestants hold today, He rejected any apocryphal writings. (However his 39 books are a little different from the Protestant canon in that he rejects Esther and includes Baruch.) and the RC edited the canon around the Council of Trent and included the aprocrypal writings.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon tells a bit about the canon.
P.s…I do appologise if I seem to be preaching.
What is your view on things like purgatory, penance, and indulgences…and as a knock on effect of them…Papal authority? (these are things I ‘protest’ about)
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guanophore
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Welcome Nick, and good for you for reading your family history. I highly recommend the library here, although you are encouraged to post any questions here you may have. Hope you win the hurdle race!
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guanophore
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You mean, He did not give His real flesh and blood on the cross, only symbolic? I met someone here at CAF who believes Jesus survived the cross, and he and his mother went to India.
You seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that Catholics “re-sacrifice” at the Mass, which is not the case. Rather, we make our selves present at the foot of the cross, commemorating His once for all sacrifice.
No, tiggy. Athanasius was Catholic,and he used the Catholic canon. Furthermore, though a bishop and a great saint, he did not have the authority to change what the ecumenical council had set.
If you really read this article in wiki, you would have seen that the canon was listed at Hippo and Carthage a couple of centuries earlier, and included the Alexandrian Septuagint at that time.
What brings you here to CAF, tiggylou?
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LionHeart777
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thx guanophore,
tiggylou, I didn’t think you were really preaching–I like to preach but I don’t know what to preach anymore
penance ? don’t quite undertsand it, haven’t searched that much, it’s down on my list don’t know what to say about it but I think what I read in the Fathers resembled confession
indulgences, purgatory-----tough swallow right now but if they’re true I will gladly swallow
it is interesting that there seems to be differeng views among Orthodox on purification after death–you might want to check it out—
papal infallibility–easier 2 swallow but am not convinced at the moment----
about Malachi, I’m trying to figure out if the “pure sacrifice” is praise or the re-presenting of Christ (or the similar but not identical Orthodox view.) you should read the articles on here that cite the Fathers @ home page—type in SACRIFICE and MASS and you should get some articles. This carries a lot of weight w/ me if the Fathers agree w/ Orthodox and RCC, not quite sure how Lutherans view it but I know gthat they don’t see the Eucharist like Reformed do. I think they term it consubstantiation (Lutherans) but don’t know all about it.
tiggylou, I didn’t think you were really preaching–I like to preach but I don’t know what to preach anymore
penance ? don’t quite undertsand it, haven’t searched that much, it’s down on my list don’t know what to say about it but I think what I read in the Fathers resembled confession
indulgences, purgatory-----tough swallow right now but if they’re true I will gladly swallow
it is interesting that there seems to be differeng views among Orthodox on purification after death–you might want to check it out—papal infallibility–easier 2 swallow but am not convinced at the moment----
about Malachi, I’m trying to figure out if the “pure sacrifice” is praise or the re-presenting of Christ (or the similar but not identical Orthodox view.) you should read the articles on here that cite the Fathers @ home page—type in SACRIFICE and MASS and you should get some articles. This carries a lot of weight w/ me if the Fathers agree w/ Orthodox and RCC, not quite sure how Lutherans view it but I know gthat they don’t see the Eucharist like Reformed do. I think they term it consubstantiation (Lutherans) but don’t know all about it.
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guanophore
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You are pretty safe with anything in the Apostles’ creed, don’t you think? Have you ever read any of the sermons of the Fathers? John Chrysostom, for instance?I like to preach but I don’t know what to preach anymore
penance comes from the same root word of “repent”. It means living a life that conforms to Christ - doing the works that befit repentance. It is also based on the principle that love covers a multitude of sins, so if we participate in loving acts, we can make amends for wrongs we have done.
indulgences, purgatory-----tough swallow right now but if they’re true I will gladly swallow
it is interesting that there seems to be differeng views among Orthodox on purification after death–you might want to check it out—Do you not believe that God can do what He did for Peter?
Matt 16:17-18
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.
It is great that you have an open mind, and are willing to explore what those closer to the Apostles believed and taught.
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LionHeart777
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you’re right, I’m pretty safe w/ the Apostles Creed
I believe God can do anything so I will trust Him to reveal to me what He wants me to know, if I repent and seek to obey Him.
No haven’t read much of Chrysostom, am planning on reading much of what the early Fathers taught though
unfortunately I work 28 hrs, have a 9 month old daughter, and am pursuing my teaching degree fulltime (my wife works full time also.)
thanks for the words on penance, gotta get off the PC or my wife’s gonna kill me
I believe God can do anything so I will trust Him to reveal to me what He wants me to know, if I repent and seek to obey Him.
No haven’t read much of Chrysostom, am planning on reading much of what the early Fathers taught though
unfortunately I work 28 hrs, have a 9 month old daughter, and am pursuing my teaching degree fulltime (my wife works full time also.)
thanks for the words on penance, gotta get off the PC or my wife’s gonna kill me
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tiggylou
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That is somewhat twisting what I meant by symbolic. I am not a gnostic. I do believe he died and rose again, it is the sacrament of the Lord’s supper where I do not believe it is the literal blood and flesh of Christ. I do not believe in transubtantiantion.
As for what I am doing here - does it offend you that I am protestant? The ‘welcome page’ said anyone of any religion is welcome…does that exclude Protestants? I am here to find out an answer to my purgatory question, which you have already had your say in another thread.
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tiggylou
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Thanks for the suggestion of the orthodox views, I may have a look into it.indulgences, purgatory-----tough swallow right now but if they’re true I will gladly swallow
papal infallibility–easier 2 swallow but am not convinced at the moment.
Why do you say papal infallibility is easier to swallow?
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guanophore
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Perhaps you can help me understand how what Jesus is saying here is symbolic:
John 6:55-58
my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever."
And how one is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, if it is not present?
“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord.” 1 Cor 11:27
Or how He poured out “symbolic blood” for the forgiveness of sins?
"While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matt 26:26-29
Not a bit!
It is for you that we exist.
I asked you that because you appeared to be discouraging another member who is interested in becoming Catholic.
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