Another Interfaith Marriage ALSO Question about LCMS

[NightFisher]

Hello, I realize that only one of these topics is appropriate for this subject-area, but I find it difficult to separate the two and still sound comprehensible. Also, I realize that there have been at least a few other threads concerning interfaith marriages, and they have been quite helpful, especially the one by Alix1912, although that thread is a bit old and I would be curious to find out how her and her significant other are doing now. (I also apologize in advance for the length of this post.)
Background: I was raised in a way that faith rarely was mentioned. My dad was baptized Catholic, but never confirmed, etc. and never attended church except for weddings and funerals. My mom was raised very Catholic, but also rarely went to church while I was growing up. The one exception was when we went to my grandmother’s on Christmas and Easter. My grandmother was pretty much the only stable Catholic figure that I had growing up. In my household, while I learned many lessons and very good values from excellent parents, I did not learn about faith, nor was I ever baptized.
As I progressed through life, I had some friends that were once very good Catholics and Christians that kind of fell away, similar to my parents, who as a side-note, were never married, and separated after over 20 years together (prior to me starting this adventure, but after I had left the house).
I started praying in high school-I don’t know why, I just did. In college, I continued to pray, but still never attended church, and did not think too much about it. I started dating a girl that regularly attended church and to me seemed very faithful to God, but is/was LCMS. This did not bother me, as I, while associating myself with the Catholic Church, did not really attend any church.
After a couple of years, I knew I wanted to propose, and I also knew I wanted to get married in the Catholic Church. I started RCIA last year and was baptized this last Easter. How I actually started RCIA is a fun story, but for a different post. Through this whole process, my fiance has supported me, and even attends church with me whenever she comes to visit (we currently live in different towns for educational reasons). This being said, it has also been very difficult for her. I would like to think I was a relatively decent person beforehand, but I completely changed in some aspects after I started RCIA and again after I was baptized. Not only this, but she was raised with a very anti-Catholic background. It’s not hatred, and it is not reserved for individuals, but when talking about Catholicism as a whole, it’s almost frightening how stiff, defensive, and uncooperative her family members and even pastors become. They want nothing to do with it. My fiance has come to terms with my “conversion,” and her family never asks me anything (although they will ask and put pressure on her), but she is still somewhat uncomfortable. The main issue is that she has begun to question her own faith (not necessarily church, just the faith in God that she has), as well as started to realize how similar our churches really are. I can understand how it might be difficult to see such similarities, especially being raised in such an anti-Catholic way (I can list examples if necessary). I never try, nor have I tried, to “convert” my fiance. I have discussed many topics with her though. Interestingly, I tend to meet “resistance” in waves. Often, I mention something and I get a response about how she will never become Catholic. Then, some other time, she mentions how she might sometime consider converting, especially for the sake of future children (of course, this is not the reason we actually want people to come to the Church, but it’s not a bad start). This whole process has been very enlightening; for me and everyone around me. My family has expressed interest and asked questions, I found out after 24 years of not knowing, that my dad believes in God, and my fiance has become much more active in her own church and started asking questions.
My questions are these: While I firmly believe we can make this work (we are getting married later this year), how difficult will it actually be? I realize there are some basic areas that put stress on interfaith marriages, i.e. children, but how have people dealt with this? (I have signed that I intend to raise the children Catholic, my fiance did not have to sign anything, but she was a little upset–she feels as though her religion does not matter and that the Catholic Church is full of rules). Does anyone have any solid experience and advice? How do you keep family members, who are good people, but anti-Catholic, from bringing down the relationship too much? (We are getting married in my church, much to the dismay of her entire family.)
Next, I have some questions concerning LCMS. I have seen that there are a few awesome LCMS posters on here. They are understanding and some have considered joining the Catholic Church, given certain circumstances. Did you ever have such a distaste for the Catholic Church? Is this universal in LCMS? If not, how does such tension exist? I had a meeting with my fiance’s pastor, and his granddaughter was about to be baptized in the Catholic Church, and he was praying for his daughter to change her mind and come to have her baptized in the LCMS church–he was super upset about this, and it sounded like he thought they were going to be damned to hell (not his words, just the vibe he was putting off). I know that there have always been tensions between Lutherans and Catholics, but how does such a range exist in this one synod? A range that includes people that are pretty much almost Catholic, and those that die a little inside every time someone mentions the Church (with a lot of people in between of course)?
Okay, I apologize for length and the ranting. I am sure I left some stuff out, but any advice and answers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[sscott]

If you are interested in being a Catholic you shouldn’t be dating a woman who is not and especially one who is anti-Catholic. This will become a sore point in the future. Decide now what is important to you; your religion or dating a woman who belittles it. Marriage is difficult enough without adding one more very big problem.

 

[runningdude]

The Missouri Synod is a very conservative branch of the Lutheran Church. They almost universally lean towards antipathy regarding the Catholic Church. They believe the Lutheran Church more closely follows the will of Christ, and that the Catholic Church has corrupted and complicated the message; this is due to the historical legacy of the Lutheran movement starting a reform movement in Germany, and eventually breaking away from the Catholic Church.

It would primarily be your wife’s duty to manage her family, but you would need to support her because she may need to make difficult decisions. She must assert for her family to respect her decision to marry a Catholic, and not undermine the relationship. She should be prepared to enforce this by limiting or even breaking off contact with them if they cannot refrain from nagging or undermining.

As for raising the children, I have very limit advise here. I used to date a Baptist, and she eventually broke up with me because she could never assent to allow her kids raised Catholic. I also broke it off romantically with a Jewish women I really liked, because I knew that I could never assent to allowing my children raised anything but Catholic.

I am busy now, but could address any other questions you have later.

 

[Estevao]

I don’t really see a problem. Women naturally follow their husband and if you are a strong man who is strong in the one true faith, she’ll come around eventually.

I recommend starting with Sola Scriptura. It’s so self-refuting I don’t know how people believe in it, I even had an antipathy to the Catholic Church when I was an atheist, so I went to a protestant/evangelical community for a while, but once I read the serious justifications for this “Sola Scriptura” I just knew protestantism was a dead end.

 

[NightFisher]

Thank you all for bearing with the long initial post and providing responses. I tend to be a little verbose. I honestly do not think her family knows why they dislike Catholicism so much, although what you have said seems typical for the Lutheran Church overall. My fiance is not anti-Catholic. She has been very supportive through the whole thing, she is just a little uneasy, as I think most of us would be upon having a loved one change so quickly. Her family, though, is more close-minded, but not to the point that they dislike me, and I deeply respect them. They were taken aback and upset at our (maybe my…) decision to marry in the Catholic Church, but I spoke directly to her father, requested her hand, and apparently I am the only person she has ever dated that her father has actually liked.
I will continue to hold to and grow in my faith, and I think, seeing the effect this has already had on the people around me, things shall work out. I hope over time we can have less strained dialogue, and that she will eventually follow me into the Church. I want it to be solely her decision though, so besides invitations to talk and go to church with me, I will keep the pressure to a minimum at this point.

I would still like to hear from others, if anyone has encountered a similar situation that worked out.

Thank you all again and God Bless.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t really see a problem. Women naturally follow their husband and if you are a strong man who is strong in the one true faith, she’ll come around eventually.

**Or not.

What’s the worst thing that could happen?
**

I recommend starting with Sola Scriptura. It’s so self-refuting I don’t know how people believe in it, I even had an antipathy to the Catholic Church when I was an atheist, so I went to a protestant/evangelical community for a while, but once I read the serious justifications for this “Sola Scriptura” I just knew protestantism was a dead end.

I would recommend reading a serious bio of Martin Luther together.
I liked this one: “Martin Luther: The Christian between God and Death,” by Richard Marius. I came away with the impression that Martin Luther was an interesting person, good company and admirable in a number of ways, but pretty neurotic. The stuff on ML’s thought is very good and detailed and whichever way your fiancee jumps, it will be helpful to her.

Best wishes!

 

[Stilldreamn]

I’m always saddened to hear of anti-Catholic remarks made by a member of the LCMS. These feelings are artifacts from earlier times - responding with charity and love is your best defense and also offense!

The LCMS synod president, Rev Harrison, has publicly stood up in support of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops opposition to the healthcare mandate in the matter of birth control - and there have been other movements at the district level drawing us closer.

Fortnight for Freedom

As you have seem with LCMS posters here at CAF, we are closer than you think - and have much that we can share together even though we are not in communion with each other.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t really see a problem. Women naturally follow their husband and if you are a strong man who is strong in the one true faith, she’ll come around eventually.

I recommend starting with Sola Scriptura. It’s so self-refuting I don’t know how people believe in it, I even had an antipathy to the Catholic Church when I was an atheist, so I went to a protestant/evangelical community for a while, but once I read the serious justifications for this “Sola Scriptura” I just knew protestantism was a dead end.

Women naturally follow their husband

If that were true then why is it that women are in the pews at Church? Why is it so common that women end up dragging their husbands to Church?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If that were true then why is it that women are in the pews at Church? Why is it so common that women end up dragging their husbands to Church?

LOL! No kidding! Even back in the good old days when men were men and women knew their place, women still took more of a lead with religion-at least in the midwest where I grew up.

When I read Estevao’s statement, my first thought was football. My husband is a great guy, but he never really spent much time around women before meeting me, and he had some interesting ideas on how men and women relate to each other in relationships. Anyway, we were both moderately into the NFL when we met, and we each had our own favorite team. We started getting into football together, and he was kind of under the assumption that because he was the man and football is more of a “man thing”, that we would be united under one favorite team-his. It didn’t work out so well. When our teams played at the same time, he thought we were just going to watch his and watch the highlights of mine later. It took 4 seasons for him to realize that nope, I was just as nutty about my team as he is about his.

It was funny, the more I watched of his favorite team the deeper in love I fell with mine. Sure, I appreciate the players and the culture of his team, but I’m grateful that I get to watch my small market underdog team every week. I like seeing his quarterback throw the ball at lightning speed down the field, but I prefer my QB’s decision making and trick plays. And the more he watched of my team, the more he appreciated his own. This makes for a great home to live in. We both wear each other’s colors and cheer until we lose our voices every Sunday.

But that’s football. Religion doesn’t work that way. As a couple shares in each other’s faiths, there is a very good chance that it will only lead to a deeper appreciation of their own. Unlike sports, you can’t put your baby in a Baptist hat and a Catholic shirt to make sure that both are represented in the child’s life. You can’t playfully compete to get your kids to support your church over your spouse’s. You can’t go to a bar where a minister is preaching fire and brimstone on one side of the room and a priest in praying over the Eucharist on the other.

Religion is too big, too important, and too personal to risk your marriage and your family on the idea that “he/she will come around”. Because as a lot of people can attest (especially on these boards), that doesn’t always work out. And marrying someone based on who you hope they will become in the future is a big risk and unfair to everyone involved, especially any children that get caught in the middle of this unnecessary conflict.

And besides, if women just “followed their husbands”, why would it matter which woman you marry in the first place? Wouldn’t she just eventually become an extension of you anyway?

 

[NightFisher]

Well in terms of attending church, I definitely am more fired up than she is, but she attends, especially now, very regularly. She will, however, come to church with me when she comes to visit, even though it generally conflicts with her church’s services. She has verbally agreed to allow me to raise the children Catholic, but she is/was not happy about it. If she does not come into the Church, that is her decision. Like I said, I would not ever try to force her, nor anyone, into the Church against their will. I am just remaining open to any questions she might have. If she does decide to join the Church, then I will be more than pleased. We have been together long enough, and love each other enough, that we are willing to try, even though we know it will be difficult. It has already been difficult. But not so much so that we have some quiet distaste for the other, or are regretting our decisions. We respect each other and will do our best. I was just looking for some specific ideas of how to make it easier I guess.
In terms of football… We both have separate teams, but they are generally both the underdog… When they play each other, we are able to keep good humor. Luckily, they don’t play each other very often (so far they’ve played each other twice since we started seeing each other: 1-1 on who has one )
Thank you all for your responses.

 

[NightFisher]

*won, not one… Yikes.

 

[His_helpmeet]

Well in terms of attending church, I definitely am more fired up than she is, but she attends, especially now, very regularly. She will, however, come to church with me when she comes to visit, even though it generally conflicts with her church’s services. She has verbally agreed to allow me to raise the children Catholic, but she is/was not happy about it. If she does not come into the Church, that is her decision. Like I said, I would not ever try to force her, nor anyone, into the Church against their will. I am just remaining open to any questions she might have. If she does decide to join the Church, then I will be more than pleased. We have been together long enough, and love each other enough, that we are willing to try, even though we know it will be difficult. It has already been difficult. But not so much so that we have some quiet distaste for the other, or are regretting our decisions. We respect each other and will do our best. I was just looking for some specific ideas of how to make it easier I guess.
In terms of football… We both have separate teams, but they are generally both the underdog… When they play each other, we are able to keep good humor. Luckily, they don’t play each other very often (so far they’ve played each other twice since we started seeing each other: 1-1 on who has one )
Thank you all for your responses.

The fact that she’s not happy about having to raise the children Catholic is raising red flags for me. Not that an interfaith marriage can’t work (it can) but if she is bitter and unhappy about her husband’s faith that could put a strain on your marriage. I strongly, strongly recommend that you two sit down (possibly even with a priest/deacon) and hash this out. Is she aware of what you’re required to do as a Catholic? Is she aware that the Church does not allow the use of birth control (though if she uses it, you can still make love to her as long as you’ve voiced your disapproval)? Is she aware that you, as a Catholic, have an obligation to raise your children Catholic and that’s a requirement for your marriage - so you can’t just back out of it if she disapproves? I think a major sit-down and frank, open discussion about your future is in order here. Does she honestly realize all that she’s taking on?

 

[NightFisher]

We have discussed all of those things. We have finished marriage preparation and had additional meetings (together and separate) with my parish priest.* Honestly, her views are not all that different* (LCMS is pretty conservative). I don’t know if I would say she (her personally [but maybe slightly her family]) is bitter because of the Catholicism aspect. She is more upset because she feels like her faith does not matter. She knows that I will be raising our children Catholic. She has conceded to that. She was there when I signed the paper, and the priest made sure she understood. She has considered the Catholic Church, solely for future children, which is NOT the reason we want people in the Church. We want people in the Church because that is what they believe. That might happen eventually, I honestly cannot say. I imagine it is quite difficult and scary to even consider something that seems contrary to what you have been taught for over 20 years.
I’m sure that we will work together to figure these things out. I realize this is “raising red flags” for people, but there’s no possible way to include all of the information, all of the struggles, all of the successes, and all of the love in a forum post. Barring disaster, we will be getting married, relatively soon. Based on some other posts and threads that I have read, having the relationship work with only us will not be that difficult (and it hasn’t been).
The only major family question that I have yet to have answered is how people have dealt with children on this subject. Not how we deal with each other in light of children, because we have already reached some consensus, but how do you respond when a child says, “why don’t we go up for communion with Mommy?” How do you instill respect for others’ beliefs, while still instilling the importance of Catholicism?

 

[Stilldreamn]

Not how we deal with each other in light of children, because we have already reached some consensus, but how do you respond when a child says, “why don’t we go up for communion with Mommy?” How do you instill respect for others’ beliefs, while still instilling the importance of Catholicism?

My husband was raised Southern Baptist and while he doesn’t attend any church at this point, we had a bit of struggle over infant baptism. I was adamant about it and he thought it was a useless ritual - ultimately all 7 of our children were baptized as babies, while my 4 step-children were baptized around age 7 or so.

I think it is critical to keep things respectful yet factual. I fell back on “That is not the Lutheran tradition” without going into a lot of detail when they were really young and waited til they reached their confirmation years to dig into the differences.

 

[JSSD]

The Missouri Synod is a very conservative branch of the Lutheran Church. They almost universally lean towards antipathy regarding the Catholic Church.

I must have been in the “almost” group. As with my whole LCMS HS. I never had any anti-Catholic feelings.

Next, I have some questions concerning LCMS. I have seen that there are a few awesome LCMS posters on here. They are understanding and some have considered joining the Catholic Church, given certain circumstances. Did you ever have such a distaste for the Catholic Church? Is this universal in LCMS? If not, how does such tension exist? I had a meeting with my fiance’s pastor, and his granddaughter was about to be baptized in the Catholic Church, and he was praying for his daughter to change her mind and come to have her baptized in the LCMS church–he was super upset about this, and it sounded like he thought they were going to be damned to hell (not his words, just the vibe he was putting off). I know that there have always been tensions between Lutherans and Catholics, but how does such a range exist in this one synod? A range that includes people that are pretty much almost Catholic, and those that die a little inside every time someone mentions the Church (with a lot of people in between of course)?
Okay, I apologize for length and the ranting. I am sure I left some stuff out, but any advice and answers would be greatly appreciated.

Lots of questions. I grew up LCMS. Born, baptized, raised, confirmed, and all through college and my 20s and most of my 30s. It all makes perfect sense when you are raised that way, and (see below) Martin Luther is not presented as completely as he probably could be.

I don’t think LCMS (or Lutherans) are insincere in their faith, or anti-Catholic as a whole, but that’s my own experience. One of my best friends from HS is an LCMS pastor and when we were in HS he very astutely pointed out that the entire Christian world follows the Vatican. As go they, so to speak. Likewise, I didn’t grow up with this sense that only Lutherans would be in Heaven. I was taught we’d share it with Catholics and virtually all of the other mainstream protestant denominations. I still believe this incidentally.

My wife was born/raised/baptized/confirmed Roman Catholic. We did the interfaith sessions and were gasp married in an LCMS church by gasp both her priest and my pastor. You read that correctly. It meant twice the pre-marital sessions, but was worth it to us. There was never any pressure on either side.

We attended church together, either alternating or attending whichever we liked best given geography of the time, as we’ve moved several times. In college, we actually liked each other’s churches better. We’ve lived in our current place for around 8 years and there is no LCMS church we like nearby. As such, I’ve been attending the Catholic church for years.

Eventually (10+ years into marriage) but 8 years here, I went through RCIA and converted. I spent some serious time in thought and more in books reading about it. I actually sort of decided to be serious while sitting quietly in the pew at Notre Dame in Paris. My father (an elder of the LCMS church) completely supported it and actually really said I should do it before I was serious about it myself. (This didn’t impact my decision).

Advice: I don’t have much.
Can you make a Catholic / LCMS marriage work? Yes.
Your fiance sounds a little more anti-Catholic than I was, though, and it is worth exploring if it is that or just a serious faith and love for LCMS - which I definitely had.
Will she ever convert? No guarantees. I can guarantee however, if you push it and make it an issue, it will be one. Focus on the similarities.
What about the family? - YOUR marriage and faith. Remember what the purpose of marriage is. Ours were supportive, although hers aren’t reliably practicing. Mine are.
Can you pray and attend church together? Can you alternate if that’s what it takes? Can you respect each other’s faiths? Your answers lie there, IMHO.

I would recommend reading a serious bio of Martin Luther together.
I liked this one: “Martin Luther: The Christian between God and Death,” by Richard Marius. I came away with the impression that Martin Luther was an interesting person, good company and admirable in a number of ways, but pretty neurotic. The stuff on ML’s thought is very good and detailed and whichever way your fiancee jumps, it will be helpful to her.

Best wishes!

Personally, I’d recommend AGAINST it. I’d recommend against any sort of discussion coming from a place of differences, and recommend a discussion starting with common ground. Scott Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home is an interesting read. Waking up Catholic or Catholicism for Protestants are also much softer and great ways to alleviate the concerns.
Save the “ML was a crazy anti-semite with fierce anger issues” for a much later, graduate course of couples shared readings!

I agree with Estevao on Sola Scriptura and it was one of the final tipping points for me. Had you started with “Why Lutherans are wrong” - I’d likely never have listened and only solidified my own position, as BlueEyedLady correctly points out in regards to football.

Hope this helps. OP, feel free to PM if there is anything else I can offer.

 

[NightFisher]

Thank you all for the insightful responses.

I fell back on “That is not the Lutheran tradition” without going into a lot of detail when they were really young and waited til they reached their confirmation years to dig into the differences.

Did this work very well with your children? Did your husband have any resentment toward this?

Your fiance sounds a little more anti-Catholic than I was, though, and it is worth exploring if it is that or just a serious faith and love for LCMS - which I definitely had.

Like I somewhat alluded to, I do not think she is actually anti-Catholic. Otherwise we would no longer be together. She is just uneasy because of the unknown I think. She supported me through RCIA and everything else. Also, you are correct in that she does have a love for the LCMS, as that is how she was raised as well as almost her entire family.

Will she ever convert? No guarantees. I can guarantee however, if you push it and make it an issue, it will be one. Focus on the similarities.

Definitely correct. Which is why I never try to force anything. I do however want to make sure she does not misunderstand the Catholic faith.

What about the family? - YOUR marriage and faith. Remember what the purpose of marriage is. Ours were supportive, although hers aren’t reliably practicing. Mine are.

We have also taken this stance. This does not mean that it is still not difficult, especially for her, every time her parents (or pastor) make a remark. My family is very supportive, hers is also supportive (because they like me), but still a little stung I think. Both sides are a mix of varying degrees of faith practice. They are all good people though.

Can you pray and attend church together? Can you alternate if that’s what it takes? Can you respect each other’s faiths?

We have prayed together some, but, as many people find out, it is difficult at first. She was especially uneasy, but I must say it was tough for me too. We will work on this. Attending church though is not usually an issue. When we are together and it works out, we both go to both services. Sunday is about worship, so what is another hour at church, where the readings are usually parallel anyway? The exception is that I always go to my church, and if for some reason my time conflicts with hers, she chooses to go to church with me most of the time.

Save the “ML was a crazy anti-semite with fierce anger issues” for a much later, graduate course of couples shared readings!

I agree with Estevao on Sola Scriptura and it was one of the final tipping points for me. Had you started with “Why Lutherans are wrong” - I’d likely never have listened and only solidified my own position, as BlueEyedLady correctly points out in regards to football.

Agreed.

Thank you all again!

 

[Stilldreamn]

Did this work very well with your children? Did your husband have any resentment toward this?

Although he was raised in the Southern Baptist church, by the time we had children he was nominally Baptist only and pretty much considered all Christian churches as interchangeable although he felt the Lutheran church was “too Catholic.” Infant Baptism was a sticking point for us, but that will not be the case with your Lutheran fiancé. Overall I would characterize his religious involvement as passive.

My family came from the Upper Midwest and is strongly Lutheran although a number of marriages to Catholics have occurred. I can’t think of a single one that remained “mixed” for more than a few years and far more Lutherans converted to Catholicism than vice versa.

I never denigrated the Baptist beliefs but as they got older I got better at apologetics and was able to explain where misleading interpretations had caused divisions. An unexpected side effect of that was making me consider my own beliefs and their validity. As a cradle Lutheran, it seems incomprehensible but I will likely enter RCIA under my own power next year, and I intend to have a trail of kids and grandkids behind me. The groundwork has certainly been done.

 

[runningdude]

I must have been in the “almost” group. As with my whole LCMS HS. I never had any anti-Catholic feelings.
…

I very carefully chose my wording; I did not say “anti-Catholic”.

I am not “anti-Protestant”, but I believe with all my heart, soul, and rational facilities that Protestantism is an incomplete interpretation of Christianity. While I fully believe that Protestants can have a deep and authentic faith in Christ, I believe many of their teachings, especially regarding the nature of the church or the sanctity of life are wrong, and in some cases damaging.*

I can expect no less of a faithful Protestant to believe the same of Catholicism.

*(The LCMS is one branch that passes with flying color on sanctity of life issues, for the record).

 

[runningdude]

I very carefully chose my wording; I did not say “anti-Catholic”.

I am not “anti-Protestant”, but I believe with all my heart, soul, and rational facilities that Protestantism is an incomplete interpretation of Christianity. While I fully believe that Protestants can have a deep and authentic faith in Christ, I believe many of their teachings, especially regarding the nature of the church or the sanctity of life are wrong, and in some cases damaging.*

I can expect no less of a faithful Protestant to believe the same of Catholicism.

*(The LCMS is one branch that passes with flying color on sanctity of life issues, for the record).

Perhaps I may have been phrased it as “antipathy towards Catholicism”, rather than “towards Catholics”…

 

[JSSD]

Fair enough, but I think even antipathy is too strong for me. Indifference might be more fair.