Another invalid marriage question? A really tough one!

[janine7]

I didn’t want to lump this question with my other “invalid marriage” question because sometimes one gets ignored as the focus remains on the other.

My son is living with his girlfriend. If they were visiting from out of town, I would (as most other Christians would) have them sleep in separate rooms if visiting. That being said, since the Church believes that those in invalid marriages are also living in sin, what if THEY are visiting from out of town? Should they really stay in separate rooms? They think they’re married, but their opinion doesn’t trump the Church’s stand on their marriage. To have them stay in separate bedrooms is very tacky.

I honestly am having a tough time with this one. No, I’m not in this position at this point, but many others are and some day I may be.

Also, to those who decide that its OK to have them stay in the same bedroom at your house, what if it were a gay couple? They honestly think they are married also? Would you give the same answer?

My best reply at this point would probably to not have them stay at my house and explain the truth in love why not.

 

[kage_ar]

You want to visit! Great, there is a hotel just a block away.

 

[lizaanne]

There is absolutely nothing “tough” about this one at all.

They are not married. Then they don’t sleep together.

Really pretty simple. If they don’t like that, then they can find the nearest hotel as kage_er suggested.

Easy peasy.

~Liza

 

[rick43235]

There is absolutely nothing “tough” about this one at all.

They are not married. Then they don’t sleep together.

Really pretty simple. If they don’t like that, then they can find the nearest hotel as kage_er suggested.

Easy peasy.

I’m not sure that it’s so “easy peasy.”

Imagine this scenario: A protestant couple, lifelong friends of yours who were married ten years ago in a protestant church, are visiting from across the country with their two children. By Catholic standards, their marriage would be considered invalid due to a previous marriage and divorce. They know nothing, nor do they care, about Catholic rules regarding marriage. Are you really going to turn them away?

 

[hellopeople]

I didn’t want to lump this question with my other “invalid marriage” question because sometimes one gets ignored as the focus remains on the other.

My son is living with his girlfriend. If they were visiting from out of town, I would (as most other Christians would) have them sleep in separate rooms if visiting. That being said, since the Church believes that those in invalid marriages are also living in sin, what if THEY are visiting from out of town? Should they really stay in separate rooms? They think they’re married, but their opinion doesn’t trump the Church’s stand on their marriage. To have them stay in separate bedrooms is very tacky.

I honestly am having a tough time with this one. No, I’m not in this position at this point, but many others are and some day I may be.

Also, to those who decide that its OK to have them stay in the same bedroom at your house, what if it were a gay couple? They honestly think they are married also? Would you give the same answer?

My best reply at this point would probably to not have them stay at my house and explain the truth in love why not.

So your son is legally married, but you don’t accept it?

 

[Corki]

You want to visit! Great, there is a hotel just a block away.

If this is one of my children, they will understand my position vis-a-vis my (and their) faith. If this is a friend, they can stay in separate rooms or I will happily arrange lodging in a nearby hotel.

I would not have a gay couple stay in my house because of my children. When my children are grown and gone, I don’t know if I would invite a gay couple to stay in my house. Many years to figure that out.

 

[Karmartia]

If my son was living in sin with some young woman I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t want to come to my house. Having said that, if he did come and brought her with him they would be welcome but would definitely not stay in the same room together, period.

A couple in an invalid marriage (I assume you mean one or both are previously divorced) can stay in my home and sleep in the same room, provided they repent of their sins, convert to the Catholic faith, and get an innullment. Otherwise, they can sleep in separate rooms or spring for Motel-6.

A gay couple would likewise probably not want to spend the night at my house, and if they did they would have to sleep in separate rooms. I would sleep at the Motel-6.

 

[kage_ar]

I’m not sure that it’s so “easy peasy.”

Imagine this scenario: A protestant couple, lifelong friends of yours who were married ten years ago in a protestant church, are visiting from across the country with their two children. By Catholic standards, their marriage would be considered invalid due to a previous marriage and divorce. They know nothing, nor do they care, about Catholic rules regarding marriage. Are you really going to turn them away?

If they are lifelong friends, they will know what my faith requires.

This is a fun vacation visit? They will stay at the condo up the road.

Do other people really have close friends who do not respect each other’s faith?

 

[Karmartia]

I’m not sure that it’s so “easy peasy.”

Imagine this scenario: A protestant couple, lifelong friends of yours who were married ten years ago in a protestant church, are visiting from across the country with their two children. By Catholic standards, their marriage would be considered invalid due to a previous marriage and divorce. They know nothing, nor do they care, about Catholic rules regarding marriage. Are you really going to turn them away?

That scenario is almost unimaginable. What, are they just dropping in? Of course you wouldn’t turn them away in that case, but if they were your friends they wouldn’t have a problem respecting your wishes in your own house.

In reality, there would be preparation for the visit first, and part of that preparation would be to arrange proper lodging.

 

[hellopeople]

I’m not sure that it’s so “easy peasy.”

Imagine this scenario: A protestant couple, lifelong friends of yours who were married ten years ago in a protestant church, are visiting from across the country with their two children. By Catholic standards, their marriage would be considered invalid due to a previous marriage and divorce. They know nothing, nor do they care, about Catholic rules regarding marriage. Are you really going to turn them away?

lol, that would be EXTREME!

 

[Bookcat]

My best reply at this point would probably to not have them stay at my house and explain the truth in love why not.

and one can gently add…you can stay with me if you like…but i would not be able to set you up in the same room…(unless they are homosexual …for that can be a problem for children etc…)

 

[puzzleannie]

what is so tough? it is my house, unmarried couples don’t sleep together in my house. you don’t like it, Motel 6 is down the road. trouble is you have to appoint yourself judge of who is validly married and who is not, but if you are in possession of all the relevant facts, it is still your house. For that matter, you are not required to entertain overnight guests at all unless you want to.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

So your son is legally married, but you don’t accept it?

I will never understand the need of some non-believers to hijack a thread that is obviously seeking Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut. Why even ask this? The implications are not lost on anyone, and it’s painfully apparent you’re just trying to argue about the validity of Catholic moral teaching – and all the OP wanted was help with Catholic teaching.

You’re welcome at this board, of course – but out of charity, can’t you limit your proselytizing to your own threads – or at least to those that are looking for debate?

Peace,
Dante

 

[rick43235]

For those of you who need more details:

This is a fun vacation visit?

Yes, just a fun vacation. Not a matter of life or death.

That scenario is almost unimaginable. What, are they just dropping in?

I guess I should have been more clear on this point. They are not just appearing on your doorstep unannounced. They are calling to say something like, “Hey, we haven’t seen you in quite some time and were checking to see if it would be convenient for you if we came for a visit.”

what is so tough? it is my house, unmarried couples don’t sleep together in my house. you don’t like it, Motel 6 is down the road.

“Unmarried” according to the rules of your church. Legally and validly married according to the rules of their church. Look…I understand that you believe what the Church teaches about marriage. No problem. I’m only asking if you would deny your friends, who believe otherwise, a place to stay because of this difference in understanding.

For that matter, you are not required to entertain overnight guests at all unless you want to.

Nobody is saying that you do. I’m just asking if you would refuse to entertain these particular guests.

 

[kage_ar]

Again, if these are good friends they know your faith and what it requires of you.

I don’t invite my Jewish friends to a pig roast. My non-Catholic friends don’t insist I eat a cheeseburger on Friday.

My friends know what I beleive about marriage and would not ask me to violate those beliefs.

 

[markomalley]

That being said, since the Church believes that those in invalid marriages are also living in sin, what if THEY are visiting from out of town? Should they really stay in separate rooms? They think they’re married, but their opinion doesn’t trump the Church’s stand on their marriage. To have them stay in separate bedrooms is very tacky.

And you know that their marriage is invalid, how? Are **you **the diocesan tribunal?

Can. 1060 Marriage possesses the favor of law; therefore, in a case of doubt, the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven.
Canon Law says that the Church must uphold the validity of a marriage until the contrary is proven. Shouldn’t you take the same attitude as the Church?

For example, if one of the spouses was married previously, do you know that the marriage wasn’t annulled? (That’s the most common)

Did you ask if the marriage was convalidated or if convalidation was refused?

I don’t know all the details, but I know that jumping to conclusions could be sort of risky, particularly when judging somebody else.

(By the way, if you were a spouse in the couple in question, my advice would be to get it proven or disproven right away…but you, as the potential host of said couple, are in a completely different position altogether)

 

[kage_ar]

And you know that their marriage is invalid, how? Are **you **the diocesan tribunal?
Can. 1060 Marriage possesses the favor of law; therefore, in a case of doubt, the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven.
Canon Law says that the Church must uphold the validity of a marriage until the contrary is proven. Shouldn’t you take the same attitude as the Church?

For example, if one of the spouses was married previously, do you know that the marriage wasn’t annulled? (That’s the most common)

Did you ask if the marriage was convalidated or if convalidation was refused?

I don’t know all the details, but I know that jumping to conclusions could be sort of risky, particularly when judging somebody else.

(By the way, if you were a spouse in the couple in question, my advice would be to get it proven or disproven right away…but you, as the potential host of said couple, are in a completely different position altogether)

The Canon you quote does not reference those attempting a second, third, fourth, etc., marriage.

And we are not talking about strangers off the street, these are supposed to be lifelong friends. One would know if they had sought dispensation or investigation of validity, these are FRIENDS

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I didn’t want to lump this question with my other “invalid marriage” question because sometimes one gets ignored as the focus remains on the other.

My son is living with his girlfriend. If they were visiting from out of town, I would (as most other Christians would) have them sleep in separate rooms if visiting. That being said, since the Church believes that those in invalid marriages are also living in sin, what if THEY are visiting from out of town? Should they really stay in separate rooms? They think they’re married, but their opinion doesn’t trump the Church’s stand on their marriage. To have them stay in separate bedrooms is very tacky.

I honestly am having a tough time with this one. No, I’m not in this position at this point, but many others are and some day I may be.

Also, to those who decide that its OK to have them stay in the same bedroom at your house, what if it were a gay couple? They honestly think they are married also? Would you give the same answer?

My best reply at this point would probably to not have them stay at my house and explain the truth in love why not.

“Not under my roof”, You can always say “my roof, my rules!” You could also supply the nearest hotel if asked. The would be a “TEACHING MOMENT”

 

[puzzleannie]

For
“Unmarried” according to the rules of your church. Legally and validly married according to the rules of their church. Look…I understand that you believe what the Church teaches about marriage. No problem. I’m only asking if you would deny your friends, who believe otherwise, a place to stay because of this difference in understanding.

.

as I said before I declared my visitor’s marriage invalid I would have to be in possession of all the facts and unless they are close relatives, such as my children, or I am the canon law tribunal, that is not likely. I used to live in a resort community and we got tired of drop in guests all summer who expected first class hotel service so we just do not take overnight guests except my MIL and my kids and they know exactly what DH would and would not tolerate.

but the problem is easy peasy, if you don’t want guests to stay overnight, you simply do not invite them or suggest alternative accommodation. You are not required to tell them why. It is your house.

 

[markomalley]

The Canon you quote does not reference those attempting a second, third, fourth, etc., marriage.

And we are not talking about strangers off the street, these are supposed to be lifelong friends. One would know if they had sought dispensation or investigation of validity, these are FRIENDS

The OP provided this information:

That being said, since the Church believes that those in invalid marriages are also living in sin, what if THEY are visiting from out of town? Should they really stay in separate rooms? They think they’re married, but their opinion doesn’t trump the Church’s stand on their marriage. To have them stay in separate bedrooms is very tacky.

I don’t know if these are lifelong friends, The OP didn’t say so in the first post. You may know this but I don’t.

You say very correctly “attempt” a second, third, fourth marriage. There is no such thing as a second, third, or fourth marriage. There is a first marriage and anything thereafter is adultery. (Now if the “first marriage” was annulled, then it never existed in the first place…)

But, again, the OP did not specify in the first post whether the reason this marriage was invalid was due to one or both spouses already being married or any of the other reasons why the marriage might be invalid. Perhaps one or both found out that they were impotent on their wedding night. Perhaps one had been sterilized and withheld it from the other. Perhaps the husband was a diocesan priest or a permanent deacon who did not get a dispensation or perhaps the wife was a nun who wasn’t released from her vows. Perhaps the wife killed her husband’s first wife. Perhaps some other reason that it was invalid. I don’t know from the first post, as the OP didn’t give a reason for it being invalid.

Remember, in my initial response, I said, I don’t know all the details. I still don’t.

Unless this couple came out and said, “the diocesan tribunal said that we have invalid marriage but we don’t care…” or “yeah I got a divorce and never bothered to get an annulment and don’t intend to…” or some other direct declaration that the marriage is invalid, any deduction we make is based upon an assumption. And, unless the couple has out-and-out declared that the marriage is invalid, per the above canon, we are not competent to make that determination about them. And unless you are the tribunal, the Ordinary, the rota, or the Pope, you aren’t qualified to render judgment on whether the marriage is valid or not.

How do you know*, *assuming this is a “second marriage” for one or both,that the couple didn’t very quietly take care of the matter and then get the marriage convalidated. Maybe they didn’t want to have any kind of scandal at their home parish (since they are coming from out of town, I would think it reasonable to hypothesize that they could be members of another parish) so they dealt with it as quietly as possible. The OP may have been aware of both marriages but not been made aware of the annulment and subsequent convalidation…because it was done quietly.

The above is an assumption too…but at least it is a positive assumption.

The OP didn’t give enough facts in the first post, so I don’t know if she withheld facts from us or if she didn’t have all the facts to begin with. That’s why I asked in my initial post, do you know that the marriage wasn’t annulled?

The point is, unless I know all the pertinent facts, I don’t care to go off and make a premature, and perhaps incorrect, judgment. My suggestion to the OP stands as it is: unless she definitively knows that it is invalid, Can 1060 says the presumption is that the marriage is valid.