Another Islam thread...

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dolphinlove

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Hi,
I thought i would start this thread and dedicate it to our dear friend Planten 😉
Planten just told us in another thread he couldnt answer a question because it wasnt the place to do it.
Well now, planten, i invite you to answer the BURNING question on everyones lips
Islam and apostasy…
So, what is the Islam stance on apostasy??
 
We had one Muslim poster here who asserted that death was the punishment for apostacy because “once you have embraced the truth, you should not be allowed to leave it”.

That says a lot about Islamic pride and arrogance.

Vickie
 
There is no single verse in the Quran that mentions the punishment of the apostasy…

For the muslims the Quran is 100% true and accurate…BUT there is no single hadith can be 100% true and accurate…

Also,the ahadiths are meant to describe the ones who engage in wars against the muslims…

Sadly,some muslims generalize it to include ALL of the apostates whether they engage in wars against muslims or not
 
There is no single verse in the Quran that mentions the punishment of the apostasy…

For the muslims the Quran is 100% true and accurate…BUT there is no single hadith can be 100% true and accurate…

Also,the ahadiths are meant to describe the ones who engage in wars against the muslims…

Sadly,some muslims generalize it to include ALL of the apostates whether they engage in wars against muslims or not
I understand what you’re saying, but would those “some” you mention include every major school of jurisprudence?

I’d say your view is a tiny minority.
 
There are more than 14000 fabricated hadiths

And there are **thousands ** of weak hadiths…and different other categories

One of the early scholar mentioned in his book more than 600 narrators he categorized as Liars/

Some say this is the result of Mohammed’s order to his companions “Don’t write down anything from me other than the Quran

Here is a funny story:

A son came from school crying ,his father asked him and he said that his teacher hit him…

The father went to the school and said to the teachers:

It’s narrated from Ikrimah ,from Ibn Abbas that the prophet said “Your sons teachers are the evil ones among you,merciless and wicked🙂

so this father made up a hadith ,quick and ready…

Some people used it to permit the forbidden and forbid the permitted.

////////
the reason I mention the above is that we can’t say for sure that the ahadiths are truly from the Prophet…Therefore,anything contradicts the Quran should be ignored…

“No compulsion in religion”
 
Hello,
There is no single verse in the Quran that mentions the punishment of the apostasy…
For the muslims the Quran is 100% true and accurate…BUT there is no single hadith can be 100% true and accurate…
Also,the ahadiths are meant to describe the ones who engage in wars against the muslims…
Sadly,some muslims generalize it to include ALL of the apostates whether they engage in wars against muslims or not
Amazing. simply amazing. How little do you know about Islam and the History of it! Quoting what you may read or speaking about what you have read, heard or learned from others doesn’t necessarily make what you are repeating THE TRUTH.

Don’t know where you got the notion of what ahadith are…beyond me?

You lack knowledge my friend, you lack knowledge.
**
May I ask what your belief it?**

Americanrevert
 
Hello,
here are more than 14000 fabricated hadiths
And there are thousands of weak hadiths…and different other categories
One of the early scholar mentioned in his book more than 600 narrators he categorized as Liars/
Some say this is the result of Mohammed’s order to his companions “Don’t write down anything from me other than the Quran”
Here is a funny story:
A son came from school crying ,his father asked him and he said that his teacher hit him…
The father went to the school and said to the teachers:
It’s narrated from Ikrimah ,from Ibn Abbas that the prophet said “Your sons teachers are the evil ones among you,merciless and wicked”
so this father made up a hadith ,quick and ready…
Some people used it to permit the forbidden and forbid the permitted.
////////
the reason I mention the above is that we can’t say for sure that the ahadiths are truly from the Prophet…Therefore,anything contradicts the Quran should be ignored…
“No compulsion in religion”
Yes, undeniably there are fabricated ahadith…and yes, there are liars out there that will mislead and misguide. No denying this.

We are warned all about those in SAHIH AHADITH. (correct ahadith).

I have had some lessons in the science of ahadith…its conditions etc. There are rules that must be applied etc…but won’t get into those details.

See, what one has to understand is, when God Himself says that He will protect, He will protect. Unmistakeably.

There are correct LINKAGES that go all the way back. We have the correct names of those who fabricate, relate, narrate, etc., those ahadith that narrate from those who are "documented" will never be trusted…man, there are formulas that must be adhered to, but to say that they are not true is ignorance and to forcefully believe it isn’t true and tell others is complete ignorance and arrogance combined. For when things are DOCUMENTED AND FACTUAL…you cannot deny they exist.

:hmmm: wonder if you understood Darwin

americanrevert
 
It does not matter one little bit about what hadith is correct or authentic or who said what to whom. Killing a male apostate seems to be the only thing that NEARLY ALL Muslims agree on. Every major school of legal thought and almost all of the minor ones. It does not matter what sect you call home.

If the hadith or ahadith in question is non-authentic, they still like it so much that they do it anyway.

I have seen justifications for this from it is treason to the one pointed out earlier. Some even say that it is not true Islam (if that is the case, why is it so common?).

Muslims regularly kill each other over sects. It is only logical that if you will kill someone for being a different kind of Muslim, you would kill them for not being Muslim at all.
 
We had one Muslim poster here who asserted that death was the punishment for apostacy because “once you have embraced the truth, you should not be allowed to leave it”.

That says a lot about Islamic pride and arrogance.

Vickie
You will see this thought in many Islamic forums.
They can shuffle around it here but they sure don’t fight it out with their Islamic brothers and sisters on those sites.
🤷
 
Hello,

Yes, undeniably there are fabricated ahadith…and yes, there are liars out there that will mislead and misguide. No denying this.

We are warned all about those in SAHIH AHADITH. (correct ahadith).

I have had some lessons in the science of ahadith…its conditions etc. There are rules that must be applied etc…but won’t get into those details.

See, what one has to understand is, when God Himself says that He will protect, He will protect. Unmistakeably.

There are correct LINKAGES that go all the way back. We have the correct names of those who fabricate, relate, narrate, etc., those ahadith that narrate from those who are "documented" will never be trusted…man, there are formulas that must be adhered to, but to say that they are not true is ignorance and to forcefully believe it isn’t true and tell others is complete ignorance and arrogance combined. For when things are DOCUMENTED AND FACTUAL…you cannot deny they exist.

:hmmm: wonder if you understood Darwin

why? is he thiqah?

As for documented, Joseph Schacht and Juynboll have shown how much later the traditions, the chain of transmitters (isnad), and the criticism of the transmitters ('ilm al-rijal) are.
 
Yes, undeniably there are fabricated ahadith…and yes, there are liars out there that will mislead and misguide. No denying this.
It is not fabricated hadith that I have a problem with.
We are warned all about those in SAHIH AHADITH. (correct ahadith).
I have had some lessons in the science of ahadith…its conditions etc. There are rules that must be applied etc…but won’t get into those details.
There are correct LINKAGES that go all the way back. We have the correct names of those who fabricate, relate, narrate, etc., those ahadith that narrate from those who are "documented" will never be trusted…man, there are formulas that must be adhered to, but to say that they are not true is ignorance and to forcefully believe it isn’t true and tell others is complete ignorance and arrogance combined. For when things are DOCUMENTED AND FACTUAL…you cannot deny they exist.
It is the “sahih” and “hasan” hadith that I have a problem with. I was Muslim before, and I too took a class in hadith, and I still have a doubt concerning these “authentic hadith”.

They are just as questionable as the Gospels are??? I under why Muslim doubt the gospels, but the hadiths are no more or less authentic than the gospels.

In Christ,

Silouan
 
They are just as questionable as the Gospels are??? I under why Muslim doubt the gospels, but the hadiths are no more or less authentic than the gospels.
**On the face ( and to laymen), the authenticity of Gospels may appear same as of Ahadith.

But the one who is aware/studied the Art of Hadith**, there is a whole world of difference between these two (i.e. Gospels and Authentic Ahadith), because the chain of narrators of Gospels does not go back all the way to or the period of Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH) whereas every Authentic Hadith has a SANAD/LINK that goes back to the Last Prophet of Islam (PBUH).

To know how authentic Gospels are, it is sufficient to read very INTRODUCTIONS of them in the New American Catholic Bible.
 
**
To know how authentic Gospels are, it is sufficient to read very INTRODUCTIONS of them in the New American Catholic Bible.**
To know that the Koran is not from God, it is sufficient to read the SATANIC VERSES by Salman Rushdie (Muslim author). 😉
 
**
To know that the Koran is not from God, it is sufficient to read the SATANIC VERSES by Salman Rushdie (Muslim author).

He is not a representative of Islam.***

americanrevert**
 
**On the face ( and to laymen), the authenticity of Gospels may appear same as of Ahadith.

But the one who is aware/studied the Art of Hadith**, there is a whole world of difference between these two (i.e. Gospels and Authentic Ahadith), because the chain of narrators of Gospels does not go back all the way to or the period of Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH) whereas every Authentic Hadith has a SANAD/LINK that goes back to the Last Prophet of Islam (PBUH).

To know how authentic Gospels are, it is sufficient to read very INTRODUCTIONS of them in the New American Catholic Bible.
that’s what you think
you seem to use the the more critical of secular research of the Gospel and discard ( or infact, dont even know ) any secular research which says otherwise

if that’s your way to prove anything, than i’ll use the same approach

you are using secular sources, denying church tradition and basicly call the church a liar

we can say the same about islam and the quran :

here’s one :

Dr. Elisabeth Puin gave a lucid, and highly original analysis of an early Koran manuscript from Sana, Yemen, [DAM 01-27.1] in part written over a palimpsest Koranic text. Dr. Elisabeth Puin summarized her findings and their implications,

the comparison with the Standard text [Cairo 1924/25 Koran] shows that it still contains many differences in orthography and verse counting; there are even minor textual variants, like, for example, singular instead of plural, wa- instead of fa-, and so on. Some - but by far not all - of those differences were at a later stage corrected by erasure and /or amendments. We cannot suppose that all the differences are only due to the calligrapher’s inattention, being simply spelling mistakes; there are too many of them on every page, and some of them are found repeatedly, not only in this manuscript but in others too. So we must conclude that at the stage when and in the region where the manuscript was written those variants were not felt to be mistakes but conformed to a specific writing tradition.”

basicly it can be changed, if someone had the political power ( like by the kalifah ).

Oral recitation nevertheless remained the preferred mode of transmission, and, as time passed,** variant versions of the text proliferated - the kind of organic change that is endemic to an oral tradition. In addition, because of the nature of the early Arabic script, in which short vowels were not indicated and consonants of similar form were only sometimes distinguished by pointing, writing, too, was subject to misunderstanding, copyist’s error, and change over time**.

Mingana argued that the Qur’an had not been codified in book form until several decades later than was generally accepted, in the reign of the fifth Umayyad caliph, ‘Abd al-Malik b. Marwan (65-86 / 685-705). In the 1970s John Wansbrough went much farther, concluding, on the basis of textual and linguistic analysis, that there is no evidence for a “canonical” version of the Qur’anic text before the very end of the eighth century at the earliest.

In the 1970s John Wansbrough went much farther, concluding, on the basis of textual and linguistic analysis, that there is no evidence for a “canonical” version of the Qur’anic text before the very end of the eighth century at the earliest.

Nevertheless, with the passage of time, additional variant readings were readmitted, first “the three after the seven,” then “the four after the ten.” The modern Cairo edition, prepared at al-Azhar in the 1920s, is based on one of the seven readings permitted by Ibn Mujahid, that of Abu Bakr ‘Âsim (d. ca. 127 / 745) as transmitted by Hafs b. Sulayman (d. 180 / 796)

and many others…
 
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