Another Jesuit v. Dominican Discussion

[GloriousOrder]

I really feel the urge to quote the Albigensian/Protestant joke, but I won’t…

There are three religious communities that consider themselves way above that and for very good reason, they are very far ahead of the rest of us. They are the Dominicans, Jesuits and Salesians. They’re theological geniuses. The discussions that we have on CAF would bore them to death. If this were a scholarly site, you could find tons of Dominicans, Salesians and Jesuits.

ATTENTION EVERYONE: Listen to this Brother! He knows his stuff. If any of we Dominicans - spiritual and professed - deign to come on this peasanty forum, it is only because our greatest virtue is humility and we live it out with total perfection! Honestly, though, I can’t agree about those Jesuits; Salesians, perhaps, but the Society? Pff! Let them be forgotten! Limelight-thieves!

You wouldn’t believe how I treated this poor young Jesuit novice when he visited our cathedral Homeless Outreach… :extrahappy: As an aside, I do believe Ignatius, Dominic, Francis, and Don Bosco are too busy laughing themselves to death to mind.

Anyway, for anyone interested in the Jesuits I heartily recommend a book about St. Ignatius’ life, death, and the continuation of his order (up to about 1920), written in 1928. It’s called “The Power and the Secret of the Jesuits”, and is very compelling. The author goes into intense depth. It almost makes the Jesuits interesting.

 

[john_aurelius]

Where are the Augustinians in this discussion?

 

[GloriousOrder]

Where are the Augustinians in this discussion?

The Rule of St. Augustine applies to a wide variety of societies. Canons regular follow his rule most basically and strictly, but often write their own additions to it (statutes). The Dominican Order has the Rule as its basis, with a large number of statutes written over the skeletal foundation. Dominicans are very close to Augustinian canons, in fact, except for the aspect of their mendicancy vs. Canons’ ability to hold property, wealth, and such. Jesuits are nothing like Canons/Augustinians, because the former are hardly that community-oriented, whereas the latter take vows to stay in one community (usually a cathedral chapter) forever.

 

[john_aurelius]

thx

 

[Young_Thinker]

The Rule of St. Augustine applies to a wide variety of societies. Canons regular follow his rule most basically and strictly, but often write their own additions to it (statutes). The Dominican Order has the Rule as its basis, with a large number of statutes written over the skeletal foundation. Dominicans are very close to Augustinian canons, in fact, except for the aspect of their mendicancy vs. Canons’ ability to hold property, wealth, and such. Jesuits are nothing like Canons/Augustinians, because the former are hardly that community-oriented, whereas the latter take vows to stay in one community (usually a cathedral chapter) forever.

But are not the Augustinian friars more like the Dominicans in terms of lifestyle as opposed as to the various orders of canons regular (Norbertines, Crosiers, the Canons Regular of the Immaculate Conception, etc.)?

 

[GloriousOrder]

But are not the Augustinian friars more like the Dominicans in terms of lifestyle as opposed as to the various orders of canons regular (Norbertines, Crosiers, the Canons Regular of the Immaculate Conception, etc.)?

I don’t know a thing about the Augustinian friars, just Augustinian canons.

 

[CTCatholic5]

I really feel the urge to quote the Albigensian/Protestant joke, but I won’t…

Good, because if I hear it just one more time, my head will surely explode.

Anyway, for anyone interested in the Jesuits I heartily recommend a book about St. Ignatius’ life, death, and the continuation of his order (up to about 1920),* written in 1928*.

** Found it on InternetArchive for free. (archive.org/details/powerandsecretof008970mbp**) The date published is key me’thinks… Definitely close to the ‘peak,’ there…

It’s called “The Power and the Secret of the Jesuits”, and is very compelling. The author goes into intense depth. It almost makes the Jesuits interesting.

 

[CTCatholic5]

Where are the Augustinians in this discussion?

I’d love to hear a little more about them–definitely a blank slate, in terms of my understanding of Orders.

 

[CTCatholic5]

Common’ folks, give the Society of Jesus a break. First of all, you’re unlikely to meet one on them on this fora for the same reason that you’re unlikely to meet a Dominican Friar. These fora are really for amateurs in the Catholic faith. There are three religious communities that consider themselves way above that and for very good reason, they are very far ahead of the rest of us. They are the Dominicans, Jesuits and Salesians. They’re theological geniuses. The discussions that we have on CAF would bore them to death. If this were a scholarly site, you could find tons of Dominicans, Salesians and Jesuits.

…

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you, Brother. Informative as always.

 

[CTCatholic5]

My source is a very trustworthy set of lectures from the 1980’s in the Dominican House of studies, from Washington, D.C.! It’s online if you want to listen, but it’s something like 24 hours of in-depth course material in history, philosophy, theology, and practice.

Thanks for the tip, I dl’ed these a few nights ago and don’t regret it…

 

[JReducation]

But are not the Augustinian friars more like the Dominicans in terms of lifestyle as opposed as to the various orders of canons regular (Norbertines, Crosiers, the Canons Regular of the Immaculate Conception, etc.)?

The Augustinian Friars follow the rule of St. Augustine as it was originally followed when Augustine wrote it. They are not mendicants as are: Trinitarians, Carmelites, Dominicans, Servites, Franciscans and Mercedarians.

Originally, Augustine founded a monastery. The there was a difference between his monastery and that of the Benedictines and Carmelites. Augustine’s monastery allowed the monks to be pastors of souls. The Benedictines were fraternal. They were not founded to be pastors. The priesthood was accidental to the, not essential. They had houses without priests. The Carmelites were hermits and they too were a fraternal community with only some ordained hermits.

The monastery that Augustine founded foreshadowed the mendicant movement. They followed the monastic life, but they were engaged in the local Church. They differed from the mendicants in two major areas. First, they were priests. Aside from the Dominicans, the other mendicants were not founded as orders of priests. Second, they were attached to their monastery, as were the Benedictines. Third, they were more monastic than they apostolic.

The mendicants were not attached to any house. They were not even attached to their province. They can still go from one province to another. It’s very common for a mendicant to be assigned to work and live in another province, for whatever reason the superiors deem are necessary. The mendicants are monastic to different degrees. I believe that the Carmelites, the Dominicans and the Conventual Franciscans are the most monastic of the mendicants. The rest of us are just a bunch of bums who walk the streets of cities, hitch hike from place to place, live in the house next door to you, sleep under bridges if necessary, pray on the go, never chant the Divine Office, because you look very silly doing that on a NY subway and we’re comfortable preaching at St. Peter’s Basilica, as is Friar Reinero Cantalamessa, on TV as does Fr. Benedict G, or on the corners of a major city, as I do. Just ask one question and you get a sermon.

The Augustinians, like the Dominicans, adopted the term Friar from Frater. They are a fraternity. Unlike the Carthusians who are hermits or the Salesians who are clerks regular. To this day, they are bound to a Motherhouse. That makes them different from the other mendicants. We have motherhouses, but we’re not attached to them. They are simply the house that gave birth to the province. Often, the government of a province is there, but not always. Actually, the Dominicans are part of the Augustinian family. The follow the rule of Augustine and Dominic begins his life with the Augustinians. He brings many of their customs with him.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

My source is a very trustworthy set of lectures from the 1980’s in the Dominican House of studies, from Washington, D.C.! It’s online if you want to listen, but it’s something like 24 hours of in-depth course material in history, philosophy, theology, and practice.

I remember this. I had just returned from the missions and was living down the block. I attended several courses at the DHS. It’s a great community. I have not been back there since 1983.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Thepeug]

Br. JR,

I’m curious: how does the life of a canon regular (a Norbertine, for instance) differ from that of an Augustinian?

 

[JReducation]

Br. JR,

I’m curious: how does the life of a canon regular (a Norbertine, for instance) differ from that of an Augustinian?

That’s very complex. I would suggest that you go to their website. They give you their history and their mission. Also, I’m not a canon; therefore, I am not privy to the differences. I know that the Augustnian Canons and the Nobertines follow the rule of St. Augustine. My impression is that the Norbertines are more monastic than the Canons of St. Augustine.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Young_Thinker]

I don’t know a thing about the Augustinian friars, just Augustinian canons.

Okay. Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Young_Thinker]

The Augustinian Friars follow the rule of St. Augustine as it was originally followed when Augustine wrote it. They are not mendicants as are: Trinitarians, Carmelites, Dominicans, Servites, Franciscans and Mercedarians.

Originally, Augustine founded a monastery. The there was a difference between his monastery and that of the Benedictines and Carmelites. Augustine’s monastery allowed the monks to be pastors of souls. The Benedictines were fraternal. They were not founded to be pastors. The priesthood was accidental to the, not essential. They had houses without priests. The Carmelites were hermits and they too were a fraternal community with only some ordained hermits.

The monastery that Augustine founded foreshadowed the mendicant movement. They followed the monastic life, but they were engaged in the local Church. They differed from the mendicants in two major areas. First, they were priests. Aside from the Dominicans, the other mendicants were not founded as orders of priests. Second, they were attached to their monastery, as were the Benedictines. Third, they were more monastic than they apostolic.

The mendicants were not attached to any house. They were not even attached to their province. They can still go from one province to another. It’s very common for a mendicant to be assigned to work and live in another province, for whatever reason the superiors deem are necessary. The mendicants are monastic to different degrees. I believe that the Carmelites, the Dominicans and the Conventual Franciscans are the most monastic of the mendicants. The rest of us are just a bunch of bums who walk the streets of cities, hitch hike from place to place, live in the house next door to you, sleep under bridges if necessary, pray on the go, never chant the Divine Office, because you look very silly doing that on a NY subway and we’re comfortable preaching at St. Peter’s Basilica, as is Friar Reinero Cantalamessa, on TV as does Fr. Benedict G, or on the corners of a major city, as I do. Just ask one question and you get a sermon.

The Augustinians, like the Dominicans, adopted the term Friar from Frater. They are a fraternity. Unlike the Carthusians who are hermits or the Salesians who are clerks regular. To this day, they are bound to a Motherhouse. That makes them different from the other mendicants. We have motherhouses, but we’re not attached to them. They are simply the house that gave birth to the province. Often, the government of a province is there, but not always. Actually, the Dominicans are part of the Augustinian family. The follow the rule of Augustine and Dominic begins his life with the Augustinians. He brings many of their customs with him.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

How you have been lately, Br. J.R.? I really appreciate your response, which is in-depth (as you just said, “just ask one question and you get a sermon,”) and interesting as usual. “Just a bunch of bums.” Hahah! That is classic!

 

[Thepeug]

That’s very complex. I would suggest that you go to their website. They give you their history and their mission. Also, I’m not a canon; therefore, I am not privy to the differences. I know that the Augustnian Canons and the Nobertines follow the rule of St. Augustine. My impression is that the Norbertines are more monastic than the Canons of St. Augustine.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks, Brother. That makes sense, as the Norbertines were a reform of canon life.