Another Koran-kissing moment

[Redbandito]

Myfavoritmartin-

I absolutely love the way you have failed to respond to my direct postings to you.

I’m calling you out on this.

You want to slam the Holy Father for his efforts in Turkey, yet you ignore the scriptures that show how he is following in the footsteps of Christ and Paul. Here they are again:

"While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?” On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:10-12)

“Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:19-22)

I’ll also add:

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:44-48)

You aspire to be like Christ? Wonderful. How will you apply these verses to your life as the Pope has applied them to his?

This is the best post of the entire thread. Well done!

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

And OF COURSE people were doing this prior to the 1960’s. I think the disconnect we are having stems from you equating the labeling of a word as the creation of that practice. In reality though, you would even grant that the Trinity was OFFICIALLY defined (and named) much after the actual belief existed. Thus, the fact that the Church started using the word “Trinity” to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in no way signified a new idea. It just articulated the same idea more clearly. In the same way, ecumenism has ALWAYS been practiced. The mere fact that the word was not in circulation prior to VII in no way means that the Catholics did not practice it.

No, the Catholic Church was not engaged in the ecumenical movement prior to Vatican II. This is not a conspiracy theory. Ask anyone who loves Vatican II-- he or she will be excited to tell you that Vatican II officially engaged the Church in the ecumenical movement. That was one of the main reasons for the council in the first place. So at least be honest with yourself and everyone else and admit that ecumenism (that is, involvement in the ecumenical movement which started with protestants) is something new that was initiated at Vatican II. This is why John Paul II says in the openining sentence of Ut Unum Sint:

The call for Christian unity made by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council with such impassioned commitment is finding an ever greater echo in the hearts of believers . . .

AND

The Council expresses the Church’s decision to take up the ecumenical task of working for Christian unity and to propose it with conviction and vigour: “This sacred Synod exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to participate actively in the work of ecumenism”

emphasis mine

Vatican II defined ecumenism this way:

Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called “ecumenical.”

Less than 40 years earlier, however, Pius XI in his encyclical Mortalium Animos, speaking on the same movement toward Christian unity, had these words:

But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
continued . . .

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

. . . continued from above post . . .

And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends. For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: “That they all may be one… And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,”[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment.

AND

Among them there indeed are some, though few, who grant to the Roman Pontiff a primacy of honor or even a certain jurisdiction or power, but this, however, they consider not to arise from the divine law but from the consent of the faithful. Others again, even go so far as to wish the Pontiff Himself to preside over their motley, so to say, assemblies. But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor.

AND THE GRAND FINALE . . .

So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.

 

[Redbandito]

No, the Catholic Church was not engaged in the ecumenical movement prior to Vatican II. This is not a conspiracy theory. Ask anyone who loves Vatican II-- he or she will be excited to tell you that Vatican II officially engaged the Church in the ecumenical movement. That was one of the main reasons for the council in the first place. So at least be honest with yourself and everyone else and admit that ecumenism (that is, involvement in the ecumenical movement which started with protestants) is something new that was initiated at Vatican II. This is why John Paul II says in the openining sentence of Ut Unum Sint:
AND
emphasis mine

So now I am being dishonest? This is what I am talking about regarding charity. You’re presuming to know my intentions. Dishonesty requires an act of the will. You’re saying that you think I am intentionally choosing to distort facts. Interesting example of the application of our two distinct approaches. That tone will certainly not win me over. When you fail to show the fruit of your faith, LOVE, the truth is lost. On the other hand, I thought the discussion the previous posts had been pretty good.

Secondly, you completely ignored my last post. What JPII stated, does not disagree with my previous post. VII called for a renewal in the Church. Things that had been lost or distorted (such as your notion of evangelism) were brought back under the examining glass. Ecumenism, AGAIN, is a way to evangelize. If you don’t like it, FINE! Nobody is forcing you to be charitable. You would just be a much more effective evangelist if you did.

You must acknowledge the quote in Eph 4 that tells us to “preach the truth in love.” It is unavoidable. This is the revealed Word of God. Any other way of doing so is nothing but self-righteousness. It becomes about us changing others, rather than allowing God to change others.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I don’t know if they qualify. It is not my place to know a man’s heart. It is God’s place ALONE. Since you seem to know whether a man is worthy of salvation or not, maybe you can just kick Christ off of His judgment seat. Apparently you think it’s your place to judge their heart, so you keep it up. Let all the Muslims know how evil they are, and that they’re going to Hell. That’s always a good place to start when evangelizing.

Have I for 1 moment said anyone is going to hell?
That is Judging, if you denied Christ you’d be anti Christ…
You guys do a heckuva job putting words in my mouth.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Myfavoritmartin-

I absolutely love the way you have failed to respond to my direct postings to you.

I’m calling you out on this.

I’m one of 2 non-caths… I spend an hour a day here, excuse me if i am unable to answer 30 posters attacking my POV…
sheesh.

You want to slam the Holy Father for his efforts in Turkey, yet you ignore the scriptures that show how he is following in the footsteps of Christ and Paul. Here they are again:

I am slamming the symbolism, you must understand from evangelic POV, the pope is what muslims see as Christianity in the west, when he does something like what he did in Germany a month or two ago I was backing him 100% if you dont believe me look at christian forums. com “simonthezealot” posts(that’s me)… b16 spoke the truth had he stuck with that and not back pedalled I’d be 100% behind him on his approach. Islam is a religion of satan…he had it right the 1st time.

"While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?” On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:10-12)

Pick a verse to defend B16 your demanded to do it as a Catholic, I’ll share the flip side of picking a verse, you learn whom understands…
2 cor: 6
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers**. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common**? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial**? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”[c]

“Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:19-22)

it doesn’t say to the unbelievers I became an unbeliever! does it?

You aspire to be like Christ? Wonderful. How will you apply these verses to your life as the Pope has applied them to his?

The simple truth my friend! I merely need to offer an opening to unbelievers for that is what God commands, our creator is the one whom brings his to him. Your popes actions may have encouraged people on the edge of switching to Christianity into believing their religion had a legitimacy to it.
Remember that Christ is the way the truth and the light.**

 

[Catherine_S]

Definition of ecumenicalism-
Love thy neighbor, love they enemy, do good to those who hate you, turn the other cheek, give him the coat off your back, pray for him, give your life for the just and the unjust man, give to all who ask… shall I continue?

Wisdom :clapping: !
.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Definition of ecumenicalism-
Love thy neighbor, love they enemy, do good to those who hate you, turn the other cheek, give him the coat off your back, pray for him, give your life for the just and the unjust man, give to all who ask… shall I continue?

You can do this to Muslims, but a non catholic like myself, it appears its not so easy to do so, based on these forums, I question!

yet they deny Christ (muslims). It is true what many say the pope and the people are more open to non christians than to evangelic Christians.

 

[tequilamac]

You can do this to Muslims, but a non catholic like myself, it appears its not so easy to do so, based on these forums, I question!

yet they deny Christ (muslims). It is true what many say the pope and the people are more open to non christians than to evangelic Christians.

Huh? did you say you were a Christian? Then were you not called to be a part of the beatitudes, to be persecuted for his sake, to take insult without whining, to be misunderstood? If you are a Christian and not a Muslim, why are you whining about people treating you badly? If you are a Christian you expect to be treated badly and you expect to treat others well, don’t you? Are you saying that even though you are a Christian you would like to be treated as the enemy?
first you complain because the Pope treated the Muslims in a Christian fashion then complained that you were not being treated as well as the Muslims. Well, which is it? Are you a Christian or are you a Muslim?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Huh? did you say you were a Christian?

Yes, I love my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Then were you not called to be a part of the beatitudes, to be persecuted for his sake, to take insult without whining, to be misunderstood?

Yes, I expect and accept the Joy and pain in the truth.

If you are a Christian and not a Muslim, why are you whining about people treating you badly?

Not a matter of whining, Just disgruntled over how many can rationalize the acceptance of such an anti-christian thing such as Islam.

If you are a Christian you expect to be treated badly and you expect to treat others well, don’t you?

Yes, to a point! but not as acknowledging instruments of wickedness.

Are you saying that even though you are a Christian you would like to be treated as the enemy?

If I must for our Lord, then I will!

first you complain because the Pope treated the Muslims in a Christian fashion then complained that you were not being treated as well as the Muslims. Well, which is it? Are you a Christian or are you a Muslim?

I am a Christian whom through Christ wishes to share the word of God, but does not want a character leaving the world, thinking we as Christians are wishy-washy, against muslims this moment praying with em the next telling them they are built on sin, oops built on sin then praying with em’

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Ick! are you kidding me? You think they give Jesus the proper respect our Lord and Saviour expects,deserves and demands. Gimme a break!!!

Brother Martin,

The Pope, when he kissed the Qur’an, was in a Moslem nation and received the Qur’an as a gift from a Moslem religious leader in the area. It is a custom in the Middle East to kiss almost everything… Jesus kissed the feet and washed the feet of His Apostles… The Pope kissed the Qur’an because it was a gift from a friend and a representative from another religious leader.

The Pope was there visiting the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch in Iraq and the Patriarch was asked if he was offended that the Pope kissed the Qur’an, and he said that ‘no, under the circumstances I was not’. If the Chaldean Patriarch isn’t offended, then neither am I!

I don’t think the Pope was kissing it out of disrespect to Christianity but because it was a gift. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

You can do this to Muslims, but a non catholic like myself, it appears its not so easy to do so, based on these forums, I question!

yet they deny Christ (muslims). It is true what many say the pope and the people are more open to non christians than to evangelic Christians.

sorry but the pope is very much an evangelic Christian. I myself am an Evangelical Christian – although I am a faithful Catholic.`

 

[rtconstant]

I can’t believe this thread is still going on. It’s called manners people. The Pope was guest and he carried himself as such.

It’s amazing what people can find to complain about when they’re looking.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m one of 2 non-caths… I spend an hour a day here, excuse me if i am unable to answer 30 posters attacking my POV…
sheesh.

MFM-

Thank you for responding at last. I understand you feel “swarmed”; however, that may say more about your POV than it does about those who attack it. At some point, a reasonable man might conclude that he was a little off base and reconsider.

Look, I agree with you (I think) that Islam, like Mormonism, is a deception of Satan designed to lead people away from God. The genius of these deceptions is that they are built upon half-truths. To be blunt, I also believe Protestantism is a bold stroke by Satan to divide the Christian church and to lead many into hell who naively accept the lie “once saved, always saved”. You will not agree with this, of course. I’m sure this will not be the last time we will cross swords; frankly, I think that’s okay…“iron sharpens iron” and all that.

The bigger issue in this thread, however, is that I (and many others obviously) take exception to your broadsides against the Pope when it is evident that a) he has a very difficult row to hoe and b) there is ample scriptural basis for his approach to the unconverted.

You can say what you will about Islam and the anti-Christ and all that - and I’m still listening. But you start spouting your hard-line, fundamentalist rhetoric about what he should or should not do in his efforts to reach a people that so desperately need to be freed from bondage, and you’ ve lost me.

That is why I asked you to consider the passages that I quoted, because I think they illustrate how we need to come down off our high horses from time to time in order to win souls.

Finally, this posting has an alternative ending:

A. WWJD?
B. Physician, heal thyself!

Your choice.

 

[tequilamac]

Yes, I love my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Yes, I expect and accept the Joy and pain in the truth.

Not a matter of whining, Just disgruntled over how many can rationalize the acceptance of such an anti-christian thing such as Islam.

Yes, to a point! but not as acknowledging instruments of wickedness.

If I must for our Lord, then I will!

I am a Christian whom through Christ wishes to share the word of God, but does not want a character leaving the world, thinking we as Christians are wishy-washy, against muslims this moment praying with em the next telling them they are built on sin, oops built on sin then praying with em’

Don’t be ridiculous. If an enemy does not think Christians are wishy washy, something is wrong. If one enemy is treated charitably and it does not make the other in your words “disgruntled”, then something is wrong.
If the Church is not praying with it’s enemy while warning them of sin, something is wrong.
For you see, the world saw Jesus as weak and wishy washy, with an irrational message, eating with those he already had stated were in sin.
I think you are confused. It appears that you want Catholics to spread the Gospel but not act on it. You would rather the Pope was all talk and no action. And I say if you see the Pope as wishy washy, weak, eating and praying with the wrong people, you have have seen Jesus in action. And you have clearly stated that you do not want any character leaving the world thinking Christians act this way. Hmmmm.
Then I have to ask you: are you for or against Jesus if you really do not like how He acts?

 

[tequilamac]

Yeah, I wonder what possible good comes of doing things like that. It scandalizes Catholics and other Christians and Muslims don’t give a flying you-know-what because he’s still representing a false religion in their eyes–but he just doesn’t appear as convicted of it as Muslims are to their religion.

Lk 1 Canticle of Zechariah
"This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
To set us free from the hand of our enemies,
free to worship him without fear,
holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.

You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his was,
to give his people knowledge of salvation
by the forgiveness of their sins.

In the tender compassion of our God
the dawn from on high shall break upon us,
to shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death,
and to guide our feet into the way of peace."

Hmmm. Seems the Pope is where he should be. All is well.

 

[Redbandito]

Have I for 1 moment said anyone is going to hell?
That is Judging, if you denied Christ you’d be anti Christ…
You guys do a heckuva job putting words in my mouth.

I agree that IF you “denied Christ you’d be anti Christ.” This merely begs the question though. Has one denied Christ by merely not accepting Him? Can one freely deny Christ if all He ever heard of Christ was that He was merely a man (maybe even a prophet)? By saying you know that each Muslim has had a choice to deny Christ, and is therefore the anti Christ, you are judging. You are saying that you know, as God does, that this person has had an adequate opportunity to accept Christ but rejected it. For you to say that is simply not true. It is certainly not what the Gospel calls us to do.

And if I mistakenly accused you of saying something you did not say, or did not intend to say, I apologize.

 

[Redbandito]

I’m one of 2 non-caths… I spend an hour a day here, excuse me if i am unable to answer 30 posters attacking my POV…
sheesh…

Nobody is “attacking” you. You started the “attacking.” We are responding in defense. Notice the title of the thread.

I am slamming the symbolism, you must understand from evangelic POV, the pope is what muslims see as Christianity in the west, when he does something like what he did in Germany a month or two ago I was backing him 100% if you dont believe me look at christian forums. com “simonthezealot” posts(that’s me)… b16 spoke the truth had he stuck with that and not back pedalled I’d be 100% behind him on his approach. Islam is a religion of satan…he had it right the 1st time…

And he still has it right! He still believes that. He still stands for that. He just does it in a way that allows for open dialogue. Live the Gospel!

Pick a verse to defend B16 your demanded to do it as a Catholic, I’ll share the flip side of picking a verse, you learn whom understands…
2 cor: 6
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers**. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common**? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial**? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever**? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”[c]
it doesn’t say to the unbelievers I became an unbeliever! does it?.

I think this clearly speaks to not immersing ourselves amongst the traditions and values of unbelievers. Clearly Jesus went to unbelievers, and we must to evangelize. You are misappropriating this verse. It doesn’t support your position in the slightest. How dare you take the Word of God out of context to support your argument!
myfavoritmartin;1712605:

The simple truth my friend! I merely need to offer an opening to unbelievers for that is what God commands, our creator is the one whom brings his to him. Your popes actions may have encouraged people on the edge of switching to Christianity into believing their religion had a legitimacy to it.
Remember that Christ is the way the truth and the light.

Or it may have shown the love of Christ to that person on the edge. Your assertion is just bologna. Everything must be taken in the greater context. I am fairly certain everyone knows that Benedict does not view Muslim as an equal alternative to Christianity, including Muslims. The fact that he can be respectful to their culture, and stand for truth at the same time, is remarkably Christian. This is in direct contrast to Islam where any dissension is viewed as an attack.

 

[Redbandito]

You can do this to Muslims, but a non catholic like myself, it appears its not so easy to do so, based on these forums, I question!

yet they deny Christ (muslims). It is true what many say the pope and the people are more open to non christians than to evangelic Christians.

That is untrue and unfair. You have been treated very fairly considering you have taken an extremely “anti” Catholic position. Catholics have the right as Christians to stand up for what they believe is right every bit as much as you do.

 

[Redbandito]

Not a matter of whining, Just disgruntled over how many can rationalize the acceptance of such an anti-christian thing such as Islam.

Nobody here is rationalizing anything. We all know Islam is incorrect. We all know that Islam is not in any way, shape or form equivalent to Christianity (or even an adequate alternative). We are not disagreeing on that. We disagree with how you would have us treat them because of it. Don’t twist the argument. You know full well that Catholics reject Islam as untrue. You admitted that B16 stated this not two months ago. What, you think he changed his mind that quickly? Or could it be that maybe he feels there are other ways to share the Gospel than Bible thumping?