Another Liturgical Abuse Video- B. Brown's Diocese of Orange

[netmilsmom]

A common misunderstanding is that the GIRM tells you that you “can’t do” anything. The GIRM tells you what you will do.

As Cardinal Arinze says, “If it’s there, do it.”

And therefore it stands to reason that if it is not, don’t.
If the Vatican made a missal that said all the things we can’t do, with as much as the innovators nitpick and push the envelope, we WOULD have to state things like juggling or BBQing in the choir loft.

It’s really simple, if you don’t see a direction for you to do it in the GIRM, if it isn’t traditional (like folding hands) or if you can’t find a direction to do something in another Vatican document (not the USCCB unless it supports a Vatican document) don’t do it.

If your mother told you that you could not color your hair pink, does that mean that you can color it purple?

 

[Joysong]

Thanks, Karin,

I was using the link in pnewton’s post #89 above. Another wrong assumption that the information linked was the latest version. Nevertheless, this is the correct version and it basically states the same thing:

1. The priest breaks the Bread and puts a piece of the host into the chalice to signify the unity of the Body and Blood of the Lord in the work of salvation, namely, of the living and glorious Body of Jesus Christ. The supplication Agnus Dei, is, as a rule, sung by the choir or cantor with the congregation responding; or it is, at least, recited aloud. This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion, the last time ending with the words dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

 

[Karin]

Thanks, Karin,

I was using the link in pnewton’s post #89 above. Another wrong assumption that the information linked was the latest version. Nevertheless, this is the correct version and it basically states the same thing:

Thank you joysong…I was a bit confused on that one…as the link I gave to anamchara was the current GIRM, I thought.

Ok now back to the quote from the GIRM…help me here…what does this have to do with changing the words?
All this states is that repetition of the Angus Dei is ok… This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion,

 

[Joysong]

It’s really simple, if you don’t see a direction for you to do it in the GIRM, if it isn’t traditional (like folding hands) or if you can’t find a direction to do something in another Vatican document (not the USCCB unless it supports a Vatican document) don’t do it.

Since the bishops have authority over liturgical matters, it is a defiant point to suggest otherwise, particulary from a layperson who does not know the full latitude permitted by the GIRM in liturgy. Bishops do. Are you suggesting that obedience is to be set aside in favor of one’s private interpretation? You need to prove that it is NOT permitted, as I asked another poster.

This is a very weak argument to say nothing is permitted unless it is written in the GIRM, albeit with sufficient clarity so that a lay person will not impose his own understanding of it after reading on the internet. This really amazes me that a lay person would put so little trust in the Bishops’ knowledge of what is right and wrong. They have issued a solemn concordat stating their approval.

I noted in your post a disdain once again for the USCCB, and this is the root of all the problems with traditionists, a lack of faith in the WHOLE Magisterium divinely appointed to guide us.

I am moving again out of discussion, for I see that it will quickly degenerate. My faith DOES rest in the fact that the OCP with regard to printing of matters liturgical IS correct and licit.

 

[Karin]

As the General Instruction is studied, we discover that the Church gives us a fair amount of latitude in adapting the Mass to our local parishes and local circumstances. At the same time, it is a guide that helps us to draw all together into a common celebration of God’s love. The General Instruction gives us the boundaries and defines our common practices so that we, “who are nourished by [Jesus’] body and blood, may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ” (Eucharistic Prayer III). song…

Most Reverend Daniel R. Jenky, C.S.C.
Bishop of Peoria
SOURCE

So the GIRM is a guide …giving boundaries and defining our common practices…seems pretty straight forward.

 

[netmilsmom]

As the General Instruction is studied, we discover that the Church gives us a fair amount of latitude in adapting the Mass to our local parishes and local circumstances. At the same time, it is a guide that helps us to draw all together into a common celebration of God’s love. The General Instruction gives us the boundaries and defines our common practices so that we, “who are nourished by [Jesus’] body and blood, may be filled with his Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ” (Eucharistic Prayer III). song…

Most Reverend Daniel R. Jenky, C.S.C.
Bishop of Peoria
SOURCE

So the GIRM is a guide …giving boundaries and defining our common practices…seems pretty straight forward.

And we also have to look to the
** CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP
AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT**

INSTRUCTION

Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy."

If it comes to listening to the USCCB or the Vatican, I choose the Vatican.

 

[Karin]

And we also have to look to the
CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP
AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT

INSTRUCTION

Redemptionis Sacramentum

On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided

regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy."

If it comes to listening to the USCCB or the Vatican, I choose the Vatican.

thank you …

 

[frommi]

I’m just curious…but what part of piety and faithfulness involves taking a video camera to a Eucharistic liturgy…seems like an abuse to me.

 

[Karin]

I’m just curious…but what part of piety and faithfulness involves taking a video camera to a Eucharistic liturgy…seems like an abuse to me.

how else without visual documentation will a Bishop believe that these abuses are actually happening in their Churches?
I do agree that it is probably some sort of abuse…how bad of one I do not know

 

[Brendan]

I’m just curious…but what part of piety and faithfulness involves taking a video camera to a Eucharistic liturgy…seems like an abuse to me.

Considering that Papal Masses are video recorded, it would therefore seem perfectly licit to video record a Mass.

If you feel differently, I would encourage you to write the Papal Nucio and express your displeasure with the presence of Vatican cameramen at St. Peters.

I’m positive your letter will be given the precise attention due it.

 

[MrS]

If your mother told you that you could not color your hair pink, does that mean that you can color it purple?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_9_9.gif
what about how to cut or not to cut???

and if I don’t wash it regularly, I might get Girms.

(can you tell I am having “one of those morning”?)

%between%

 

[paramedicgirl]

And we also have to look to the
** CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP
AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT**

INSTRUCTION

Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy."

If it comes to listening to the USCCB or the Vatican, I choose the Vatican.

Uh. me too, especially since I’m Canadian…

 

[paramedicgirl]

how else without visual documentation will a Bishop believe that these abuses are actually happening in their Churches?
I do agree that it is probably some sort of abuse…how bad of one I do not know

Most priests allow camers in Mass, even movie cameras. Even the formiddable SSPX priests allow it, so it can’t be that bad.

And no, I’m not SSPX, (as has been claimed here,) but I did go to my sister’s confirmation there in November (with permission to use the camera.)

 

[Karin]

Most priests allow camers in Mass, even movie cameras. Even the formiddable SSPX priests allow it, so it can’t be that bad.

…guess not then…I mean if the Vatican allow it, right?!

 

[MrS]

Since the bishops have authority over liturgical matters, it is a defiant point to suggest otherwise, particulary from a layperson who does not know the full latitude permitted by the GIRM in liturgy. [1] Bishops do. Are you suggesting that obedience is to be set aside in favor of one’s private interpretation? You need to prove that it is NOT permitted, as I asked another poster.

[2] This is a very weak argument to say nothing is permitted unless it is written in the GIRM, albeit with sufficient clarity so that a lay person will not impose his own understanding of it after reading on the internet. This really amazes me that a lay person would put so little trust in the Bishops’ knowledge of what is right and wrong. They have issued a solemn concordat stating their approval.

I noted in your post a disdain once again for the USCCB, and this is the root of all the problems with traditionists, a lack of faith in the [3] WHOLE Magisterium divinely appointed to guide us.

I am moving again out of discussion, for I see that it will quickly degenerate. My faith DOES rest in the fact that the OCP with regard to printing of matters liturgical IS correct and licit.

[1] Yes perhaps they do… or at least they should. But you must have a knowledge of “rebel” bishops unless you have lived in a cave alone all your life. Show me two bishops who disagree and my guess is that at least one of them is wrong.

[2] Not an arguement… just common sense for one, and it is the way the GIRM is devised for another. They are the “to-do” instructions from the Church… not the “please-consider-this-while-you-do-your-thing” suggestions.

[3] Cardinal Arinze is not only a part of Magisterium, but in his office he oversees our bishops, and corrects them where it is necessary and/or possible. Much of this, I would think, it done without your ok or mine. So your comment is a false generalization of those Catholics who choose to safeguard the liturgy from abuses (even when some abuses end up being a norm for a period of time).

.

 

[netmilsmom]

They are the “to-do” instructions from the Church… not the “please-consider-this-while-you-do-your-thing” suggestions.

Spot on!

 

[paramedicgirl]

[1] Yes perhaps they do… or at least they should. But you must have a knowledge of “rebel” bishops unless you have lived in a cave alone all your life. Show me two bishops who disagree and my guess is that at least one of them is wrong.

.

 

[MrS]

Considering that Papal Masses are video recorded, it would therefore seem perfectly licit to video record a Mass.

If you feel differently, I would encourage you to write the Papal Nucio and express your displeasure with the presence of Vatican cameramen at St. Peters.

I’m positive your letter will be given the precise attention due it.

Many churches record (audio and/or visual) the Mass. If it does not interfer with the celebrant, or with the reverence of the Mass, no problem.

 

[frommi]

Considering that Papal Masses are video recorded, it would therefore seem perfectly licit to video record a Mass.

If you feel differently, I would encourage you to write the Papal Nucio and express your displeasure with the presence of Vatican cameramen at St. Peters.

I’m positive your letter will be given the precise attention due it.

Curious to me that no one thinks this is an inappropiate thing to do when the Eucharist is present on the altar…to start filiming for no other purpose than the entrapment of a bishop.

The cameramen at St Peters are off to the sides and filming discreetly from a designated position, which is one significant difference.

I can hardly wait for the next episode of the “Brown Witch project”

 

[Karin]

I noted in your post a disdain once again for the USCCB, and this is the root of all the problems with traditionists, a lack of faith in the WHOLE Magisterium divinely appointed to guide us.

Hmm…please correct me if I am incorrect netmil(name removed by moderator) orif I have left something out…
But I do not think that she is showing disdain for the USCCB and to say that she is is rather offensive, but this is just my opinion…what she is saying is that the USCCB can not on their own without approval override something that the Vatican states/teaches etc.

CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP
AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT

INSTRUCTION

Redemptionis Sacramentum
On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided
regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…#Chapter%20III

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy."