Another logistical question about priests

[opus101]

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At another parish nearby, the priest always sits among the congregation (in the first row) during the readings before the Gospel ( instead of the presider’s chair). Is there a reason for this, and why haven’t I see this elsewhere? Has anyone else seen this?

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

He probably is one of those priests educated in the 1970’s, when anything smacking of respect for the unique nature of the priesthood was scorned. He was probably taught to avoid the perceived pretense of sitting in a presider’s chair, which can sometimes look like a throne. He’s probably making a statement that he is no different from the “ordinary people.” Some of those priests do not like to be called “Father” but rather by their first name and are never seen in public with a Roman collar.

 

[michaelmas]

He probably is one of those priests educated in the 1970’s, when anything smacking of respect for the unique nature of the priesthood was scorned. He was probably taught to avoid pretenses by sitting in what sometimes looks like a throne. Some of those priests do not like to be called “Father” but rather by their first name.

I am sure that is speculation.

Ask him?

I know I like to see the person reading to me then to set off to the side or behind maybe he does it for this reason.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

It is speculation, since I do not know this priest, but I have met more than a few who do these things for the reasons I mentioned.

 

[jimrob]

Presumably the readings are from a lectern directed towards the congregation. That leaves the priest and the sanctuary staff isolated and looking at the back of the reader’s head. It’s unusual for the priest to move into the body of the church for the first and second readings, but I can understand his reasons for doing it.

On the other hand, if it’s an Ordinariate church, perhaps he wants to sit with his wife and kids

 

[FightingFat]

It’s a new one on me!

Ask him?

 

[markomalley]

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At another parish nearby, the priest always sits among the congregation (in the first row) during the readings before the Gospel ( instead of the presider’s chair). Is there a reason for this, and why haven’t I see this elsewhere? Has anyone else seen this?

It is irregular, at best.

I have not seen a reference directing that the priest celebrant to remain in the sanctuary while the readings are proclaimed. So, as a lay person, it would be very difficult for you to make a specific criticism on this point, particularly if you do not have a position of respect in regards to knowledge of liturgical matters.

However, there are a number of texts that allude to the fact that the priest should do just that: remain in the presider’s chair as the readings are being proclaimed:

GIRM 108. One and the same priest celebrant must always exercise the presidential office in all of its parts, except for those parts which are proper to a Mass at which the Bishop is present

Instruction Inter Oecumenici 92:* In relation to the plan of the church, the chair for the celebrant and ministers should occupy a place that is clearly visible to all the faithful and that makes it plain that the celebrant presides over the whole community.*

From those two paragraphs alone, it appears that the celebrant should remain in a presidential position throughout the liturgy. By abandoning the sanctuary and sitting with the congregants, it would appear that he is doing just that.

Another related point to this comes from GIRM 154: The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration.

While this has to do with the sign of peace and not the readings, it is apparent from this that it is improper for the priest to leave the sanctuary.

You could look elsewhere in the GIRM to see that the ministers (both sacred and lay) are to have places within the sanctuary during the liturgy.

One word about the sanctuary:

GIRM 295. *The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices. It should suitably be marked off from the body of the church either by its being somewhat elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation. *

There is a theological reason for this: the people housed in the nave are supposed to be given a glimpse of the heavenly liturgy as shown in the Apocalypse. By having the sanctuary clearly delineated, this is more clearly delineated. (If you really want to see this, go to a Byzantine liturgy sometime. The iconostasis really sets it off well…makes me wish we’d go back to having Rood Screens in our Latin parishes) By having an excessive amount of traffic going in and out of the sanctuary during the liturgy, it reduces that significance and tends to lead people down the erroneous path of the Protestant belief in the Eucharist as a re-presentation of the Last Supper, rather than the re-presentation of the paschal sacrifice.

 

[puzzleannie]

At another parish nearby, the priest always sits among the congregation (in the first row) during the readings before the Gospel ( instead of the presider’s chair). Is there a reason for this, and why haven’t I see this elsewhere? Has anyone else seen this?

you would have to ask him because it is something he has chosen to do on his own initiative, nowhere in the GIRM does it allow the priest to leave the sanctuary during Mass and sit with the people.

 

[promethius]

He probably is one of those priests educated in the 1970’s, when anything smacking of respect for the unique nature of the priesthood was scorned. He was probably taught to avoid the perceived pretense of sitting in a presider’s chair, which can sometimes look like a throne. He’s probably making a statement that he is no different from the “ordinary people.” Some of those priests do not like to be called “Father” but rather by their first name and are never seen in public with a Roman collar.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
• of *detraction *who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
• of *calumny *who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

 

[zab]

At another parish nearby, the priest always sits among the congregation (in the first row) during the readings before the Gospel ( instead of the presider’s chair). Is there a reason for this, and why haven’t I see this elsewhere? Has anyone else seen this?

I don’t know why a priest would not sit in the presider’s chair. The only thing that I could liken this to is possibly the procedure for a Lay Person who leads a Service. Years ago I read some information on the proper way for a lay person to lead a Communion Service if there was ever a need. Now, my memory is not exact but I do remember that the Lay Leader did not use postures and words that were for the priest. For example the Blessing at the End- They would not raise their hand to make the sign of the cross towards the people and say “May Almighty God bless you In the Name…” Rather they would make the sign of the cross over themselves and say, " May Almighty God bless us in the Name…" Another thing that I seem to remember was that they did not process in but came up from the congregation, and if someone else did the readings, they sat with the congregation.

 

[opus101]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
• of *detraction *who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
• of *calumny *who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

Cavaille did none of the above, so don’t be so quick to judge. The priest, the place, the situation and myself are all anonymous. I caught his/her drift.

If anything, your post cast a bad light on Cavaille, and could be considered a back-handed way of committing detraction.

 

[promethius]

Cavaille did none of the above, so don’t be so quick to judge. The priest, the place, the situation and myself are all anonymous. I caught his/her drift.

If anything, your post cast a bad light on Cavaille, and could be considered a back-handed way of committing detraction.

Incorrect, because your priest is not anonymous to YOU, who read Cavaille’s post and may have assumed based on his post a poor motivation of your priest.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please don’t post regarding the personal motivations of priests nor make comments on each others posts. If you see a post that violates forum rules, please use the report post function and let the moderator deal with it. Thank you all.

 

[PerfectTiming]

I don’t know why a priest would not sit in the presider’s chair. The only thing that I could liken this to is possibly the procedure for a Lay Person who leads a Service. Years ago I read some information on the proper way for a lay person to lead a Communion Service if there was ever a need. Now, my memory is not exact but I do remember that the Lay Leader did not use postures and words that were for the priest. For example the Blessing at the End- They would not raise their hand to make the sign of the cross towards the people and say “May Almighty God bless you In the Name…” Rather they would make the sign of the cross over themselves and say, " May Almighty God bless us in the Name…" Another thing that I seem to remember was that they did not process in but came up from the congregation, and if someone else did the readings, they sat with the congregation.

In my parish the priests never sit in the chair behind the altar but on another chair to the side of the altar. This is because my parish is a Cathedral, so being the Seat of the Bishop no-one but the Bishop sits there. Obviously this is only relevant for Cathedrals but it is one reason why a priest may not sit in the presider’s chair.

 

[zab]

In my parish the priests never sit in the chair behind the altar but on another chair to the side of the altar. This is because my parish is a Cathedral, so being the Seat of the Bishop no-one but the Bishop sits there. Obviously this is only relevant for Cathedrals but it is one reason why a priest may not sit in the presider’s chair.

In our parish some thirty years ago, the priests chair was behind the altar, then a new pastor moved the priest and deacon’s chair to the side front but still in the sanctuary. I have never heard of nor seen the priest sitting with the congregation.

 

[YoungTradCath]

In my parish the priests never sit in the chair behind the altar but on another chair to the side of the altar. This is because my parish is a Cathedral, so being the Seat of the Bishop no-one but the Bishop sits there. Obviously this is only relevant for Cathedrals but it is one reason why a priest may not sit in the presider’s chair.

But that chair is the presider’s chair. That counts as one, while the big chair is the cathedra.

 

[dochawk]

In my parish the priests never sit in the chair behind the altar but on another chair to the side of the altar. This is because my parish is a Cathedral, so being the Seat of the Bishop no-one but the Bishop sits there. Obviously this is only relevant for Cathedrals but it is one reason why a priest may not sit in the presider’s chair.

It is also the case for Byzantine churches. The bishop is the pastor for all chruches in his eparchy, and the priest here as his agent. The episcopal chair is only used by him (well, except for the visit from St. Nichollas on/near December 6. )

Anyway, at least in our eparchy, it is also the norm for altar servers and deacons to sit with theiir families for the homily.

hawk