Another Mary post: how do you know?

[solarwind23]

I know that in Catholicism Mary is thought to have been bodily assumed into heaven, and to have been crowned the queen of heaven…

But my question is, how is this known? There is no mention of Mary’s assumption in the gospels or any of the letters, so why do you guys think her body went to heaven?

 

[LilyM]

Well, why do Christians think God is a Trinity? There’s certainly no mention of the concept of the Trinity in the Gospels or the letters either. Neither is the canon of the Bible itself set within the Bible. IOW Jesus and/or the epistle writers didn’t say 'write a book, call it the Bible, and, oh yeah, include these bits and don’t include these other writings. Lots of Christians manage to believe in that as well, somehow :banghead:

The Bible is not the be-all and end-all even for what Jesus himself did and said, as the end of John’s gospel makes clear. It’s much less so about Mary. The Assumption is one of those very early Church Traditions with a capital T that we accept as truth.

 

[solarwind23]

LilyM:

Well, why do Christians think God is a Trinity? There’s certainly no mention of the concept of the Trinity in the Gospels or the letters either. Neither is the canon of the Bible itself set within the Bible. IOW Jesus and/or the epistle writers didn’t say 'write a book, call it the Bible, and, oh yeah, include these bits and don’t include these other writings. Lots of Christians manage to believe in that as well, somehow :banghead:

The Bible is not the be-all and end-all even for what Jesus himself did and said, as the end of John’s gospel makes clear. It’s much less so about Mary. The Assumption is one of those very early Church Traditions with a capital T that we accept as truth.

Well, the Trinity is kind of in the Bible. The whole baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit business is in there. Plus, the Trinity was defined early on.

But didn’t Mary’s Assumption become a teaching in the 20th century? Is there evidence that any of the early Christians believed her body was taken up into heaven and she was made Queen?

 

[LilyM]

solarwind23:

Well, the Trinity is kind of in the Bible. The whole baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit business is in there. Plus, the Trinity was defined early on.

But didn’t Mary’s Assumption become a teaching in the 20th century? Is there evidence that any of the early Christians believed her body was taken up into heaven and she was made Queen?

newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

Belief in the Assumption has been around since early 400s according to the above article, and was widespread in the Eastern Churches by the 6th century.

Think about it, Catholics were claiming and still claim to possess relics (objects, clothing, bones or body parts) of probably every saint and holy person in existence. This includes Christ himself (the True Cross, the Shroud of Turin, Spear of Longinus etc etc) … but NOT Mary. Almost certainly this is because they believed there were none to be had, which argues for very early and widespread acceptance of the doctrine of the Assumption.

I’m sure there are learned apologists out there who can point you to more complete information regarding the Assumption - I wouldn’t claim to be among their number.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Yes we believe Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven, as do all of the Apostolic Churches.

After Mary completed her earthly life and died, she was assumed into Heaven.

Scriptural basis as well as the basis in Sacred Tradition can be found here:

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-IV

 

[thistle]

solarwind23:

I know that in Catholicism Mary is thought to have been bodily assumed into heaven, and to have been crowned the queen of heaven…

But my question is, how is this known? There is no mention of Mary’s assumption in the gospels or any of the letters, so why do you guys think her body went to heaven?

Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

 

[solarwind23]

Wait, Mary died and then was assumed? Her physical body* after * death was assumed? Why didn’t she get a new body like the rest of us allegedly will? Why was her dead body taken into heaven?

 

[thistle]

solarwind23:

Wait, Mary died and then was assumed? Her physical body* after * death was assumed? Why didn’t she get a new body like the rest of us allegedly will? Why was her dead body taken into heaven?

www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105sbs.asp

 

[epr1993]

solarwind23:

Wait, Mary died and then was assumed? Her physical body* after *death was assumed? Why didn’t she get a new body like the rest of us allegedly will? Why was her dead body taken into heaven?

The Catechism says that at the end of her life on Earth that Mary was assumed into Heaven. The Church has not definitively stated that she died, but seems to lean towards it. Orthodoxy believes that she fell asleep, called the Dormition, and did not actually die. We both believe that Mary is now in Heaven and was alive when she was assumed.

When we die we’ll recieve glorified bodies. This doesn’t necessarily mean brand new bodies.

 

[puzzleannie]

solarwind23:

Wait, Mary died and then was assumed? Her physical body* after *death was assumed? Why didn’t she get a new body like the rest of us allegedly will? Why was her dead body taken into heaven?

the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead means we get the body we were created with, perfected and made new, glorified, not an entirely new body. Mary’s body is already perfected, uncorrupted by sin and disorder, made perfect by virtue of having been the earthly dwelling place for the Lord, the Ark of the new Covenant so is fit to be assumed into heaven as is, after her death or dormition–the doctrine is silent on whether she experienced earthly death.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

epr1993:

The Catechism says that at the end of her life on Earth that Mary was assumed into Heaven. The Church has not definitively stated that she died, but seems to lean towards it. Orthodoxy believes that she fell asleep, called the Dormition, and did not actually die. We both believe that Mary is now in Heaven and was alive when she was assumed.

When we die we’ll recieve glorified bodies. This doesn’t necessarily mean brand new bodies.

The CCC teaches she died and then was assumed into Heaven:
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

 

[hurst]

puzzleannie:

the doctrine is silent on whether she experienced earthly death.

I think it can be said that since Christ died, that she died also. Not only that, but she was buried, according to what I have read somewhere.

Still, by reason of the many examples of incorrupt saints, there is no need to believe that her body deteriorated or decomposed in the least during the time between her death and Assumption.

hurst

 

[Petergee]

The CCC teaches she died and then was assumed into Heaven:

No, it doesn’t. “when the course of her earthly life was finished” does not necessarily mean “when she died”. The CCC echoes the form of words used by Pope Pius XII in his declaration of the dogma of the Assumption. The form of words is apparently deliberately chosen to avoid saying whether or not Mary died. She could have gone directly from her earthly life to her Heavenly life.

I think it can be said that since Christ died, that she died also. Not only that, but she was buried, according to what I have read somewhere.

Christ died, suffering the fate which we all have merited due to our sin, even though He was sinless, so that He could save us by His death. Mary did not need to die, either to save us, or as the result of her sin, since she was sinless.

I have never heard of the idea that Mary was buried. If there was any tradition of this, surely there would be a cult of her empty tomb, as there is for Christ’s empty tomb. Artists portray Mary rising from her bed or her house or from among the members of the Church, into Heaven.

 

[thistle]

Petergee:

No, it doesn’t. “when the course of her earthly life was finished” does not necessarily mean “when she died”. The CCC echoes the form of words used by Pope Pius XII in his declaration of the dogma of the Assumption. The form of words is apparently deliberately chosen to avoid saying whether or not Mary died. She could have gone directly from her earthly life to her Heavenly life.
Christ died, suffering the fate which we all have merited due to our sin, even though He was sinless, so that He could save us by His death. Mary did not need to die, either to save us, or as the result of her sin, since she was sinless.

I have never heard of the idea that Mary was buried. If there was any tradition of this, surely there would be a cult of her empty tomb, as there is for Christ’s empty tomb. Artists portray Mary rising from her bed or her house or from among the members of the Church, into Heaven.

The Doctrine in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy

The tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church holds that Mary died, and that after her death and burial, she was not resurrected but that her body was miraculously transposed into heaven, as was the body of Enoch, Moses and Elijah. This two-fold event is celebrated as the Dormition (“falling asleep”) of the Theotokos. The Feast of the Dormition is celebrated on August 15, and is preceded by a fourteen day fast from meat and dairy products, the third longest fast of the liturgical year after Great Lent and Winter Lent. Despite the great importance of this feast in the Orthodox liturgical calendar, it is not considered a matter of dogma as in the Catholic Church (dogmatization of the Dormition for the Roman Catholic Church was formalized by a Roman Catholic pope after the Great Schism, whose authority Eastern Orthodox did not recognize).

Franciscan website about the tomb of Mary, and her assumption.
198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/san/TSmarymn.html

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

All we can say is that we don’t know for sure if she died an earthly death like we would, because she did not sin, but common sense would seem to say that she probably died like her son.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Semper Fi:

All we can say is that we don’t know for sure if she died an earthly death like we would, because she did not sin, but common sense would seem to say that she probably died like her son.

:ehh:

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

[/quote]

What’s wrong with what I have said?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Semper Fi:

All we can say is that we don’t know for sure if she died an earthly death like we would, because she did not sin, but common sense would seem to say that she probably died like her son.

I do understand what you meant to say here, but to some it would appear that you are saying Mary was crucified.

 

[NonDenom]

Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying.

Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

You are making an assumption on what God would do.

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot.

Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Assumption #2

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might.

Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

Assumption #3

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven.

Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

I don’t know how you made this assumption from this scripture,
oh well, #4

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised.

Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

Nothing in scripture say’s she was. #5

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Can’t wait.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

Don’t know on this one

2

Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

I don’t know when Mary died, or when the belief that Jesus was God are in relationship. If Mary died long before the belief that Jesus was God, then it would have not been especially important to keep her bones.

In Him and Him Only

 

[JB]

Wildgraywolf:

I do understand what you meant to say here, but to some it would appear that you are saying Mary was crucified.

No, Mary was not crucified. The writer means that Mary may have experienced a real death (separation of soul from body) either prior to or as part of her Assumption, at the conclusion of which body and soul would have been reunited in Heaven had she experienced earthly death.