Another Mixed Marriage

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amarischuk

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Hello everyone. The other mixed marriage thread got me thinking (a dangerous habit).

Some of you might know me and my history, others not. A few years ago I left a Catholic seminary and began teaching in China. I left for a number of reasons, including the fact that I can no longer say I believe everything the Church teaches (in the other thread it was mentioned that many Catholics leave out of poor catechism, that is insulting to us who leave out of excessive catechism).

There I met a lovely South African girl and we started to date. We have discussed marriage (she is currently in France teaching and I will hopefully join her there in January) and she really wants to be married in South Africa in her parents protestant church. Marriage is important to both of us and has shaped our attitude to pre-marital sex.

It only seems fair to have the wedding in SA since she has all but agreed to move to Canada to raise a family there (essentially leaving her home, her family, her country). And since she comes from a very Afrikaans protestant conservative background, it is important for her and her family to pay for the wedding as well as host it.

I realize that I am still bound by Catholic canon law but I am wondering what course of action should I take. Here are the options (notice ‘come back to the church’ is intentionally not included):
  1. Renounce the Catholic faith formally and be married in a protestant church (I will never agree to be a protestant however).
  2. Simple get married in a protestant church realizing canon law would view the marriage as invalid. (Pee in the wind attititude to the law)
  3. Speak to some of my friends who are priests and attempt to get a dispensation to marry in a protestant church (I have numerous friends who are priests though I do not really have a parish since the nature of my work means I am moving around every 3-6 months, not that I attend regularly anyways).
  4. Insist on marrying in a Catholic church (this one will take alot of negotiating) to have a valid marriage. This one is almost not an option.
I still consider myself Catholic in some ways and I follow church history and theology very closely. I am not ignorant of the faith and I even have priest/seminarian friends who still ask me questions on the faith (my library is second to none in philosophy, theology and liturgy). However, I disagree with a number of issues ranging from biblical inspiration to hell, contraception, papal infallibility, the nature of the priesthood, the sacraments and grace, and the authority of the magisterium. Notice that annulments/divorce, abortion, and the all-male priesthood are not included in that list.

Given the choice, I would elect to raise the children Catholic (if not Catholic, at least with an understanding of the faith and hopefully I would be able to instill the same passion for history, theology and philosophy in them) and then allow them to decide whether they would care to stay in the Church. This to me is a much better option than raising them protestant or completely secular.

Any advice or imput would be appreciated.

Adam
 
Adam,

While I would certainly recommend returning to the practice of the faith – which will allow you to work on resolving your doubts, the answer to the question is simple: as for a dispensation. The reason for holding the marriage in her church would certainly qualify.

Deacon Ed
 
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amarischuk:
  1. Renounce the Catholic faith formally and be married in a protestant church (I will never agree to be a protestant however).
  2. Simple get married in a protestant church realizing canon law would view the marriage as invalid. (Pee in the wind attititude to the law)
  3. Speak to some of my friends who are priests and attempt to get a dispensation to marry in a protestant church (I have numerous friends who are priests though I do not really have a parish since the nature of my work means I am moving around every 3-6 months, not that I attend regularly anyways).
  4. Insist on marrying in a Catholic church (this one will take alot of negotiating) to have a valid marriage. This one is almost not an option.
I still consider myself Catholic in some ways and I follow church history and theology very closely. I am not ignorant of the faith and I even have priest/seminarian friends who still ask me questions on the faith (my library is second to none in philosophy, theology and liturgy). However, I disagree with a number of issues ranging from biblical inspiration to hell, contraception, papal infallibility, the nature of the priesthood, the sacraments and grace, and the authority of the magisterium. Notice that annulments/divorce, abortion, and the all-male priesthood are not included in that list.

Given the choice, I would elect to raise the children Catholic (if not Catholic, at least with an understanding of the faith and hopefully I would be able to instill the same passion for history, theology and philosophy in them) and then allow them to decide whether they would care to stay in the Church. This to me is a much better option than raising them protestant or completely secular.
Any advice or imput would be appreciated.
Adam
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*Sir, you are a cafeteria Catholic. I think you’ve already made up your mind as to what you are going to do. What you want is validation and I certainly will not give that to you. *

What I find particularly offensive is that you say “Given the chance, you will elect to raise your children Catholic”. With that attitude, I don’t think a priest should marry you in the Church.

God Bless,
 
Adam, I too would encourage a return to the weekly Mass attendance. If you marry outside the canon law and the marriage invalid that leaves you free to remarry in the Church should this marriage fail. That is great if she leaves you but leaves her high and dry if you are the cause of the failure of the marriage. Why should you be able to move on and marry in the Church for the second marriage? Marriage should be til death.

I would recommend that you request the dispensation. You will be promising to ALL IN YOUR POWER to baptize and riase any children Catholic. Your wife may take them to her church and that would be outside your power but if she falls away from active practice you must step up and make sure they know the Lord.

Good luck.
 
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genealogist:
Adam, I too would encourage a return to the weekly Mass attendance. If you marry outside the canon law and the marriage invalid that leaves you free to remarry in the Church should this marriage fail. That is great if she leaves you but leaves her high and dry if you are the cause of the failure of the marriage. Why should you be able to move on and marry in the Church for the second marriage? Marriage should be til death.
I would recommend that you request the dispensation. You will be promising to ALL IN YOUR POWER to baptize and riase any children Catholic. Your wife may take them to her church and that would be outside your power but if she falls away from active practice you must step up and make sure they know the Lord.
Good luck.
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This is good advice. I’m not sure he’s a strong enough Catholic to raise his children in the Catholic faith by himself though. He says that he only considers himself Catholic in “some ways”.
 
Thank you Deacon Ed for your reply. My only concern is that since I am not really a devout Catholic in the strict sense, I would feel a little funny going and getting a dispensation from a friend. I feels like it would be a little “back doorish” for me to do that. I have given serious thought to the idea of a dispensation (and upon returning to Canada having the marriage blessed) and that is the best option but I don’t want to take advantage of the fact that I have “connections”.

Genealogist, I am sorry but having a divorce and being free to remarry in the Church has not even crossed my mind. I agree with the indissolubility of marriage (though I think their are arguments for Orthodox “economy” and even historically polygamy).

It is really not even an option. Perhaps I have been fortunate but only one of my 13 aunts and uncles has got a divorce (and her’s was a shot-gun wedding at 18). Divorce is not part of either of our cultures.

Shannin, I take no offense at being called a Cafeteria Catholic. I consider myself more properly a thinking Catholic though. My faith is not weak in that I believe some things very firmly, I just cannot agree with the fiediestic approach to Catholicism.

I will probably raise my children more Catholic than my parents raised me Catholic. I didn’t ever pray the rosary until I went to University and became involved in Opus Dei (the Chaplin was Opus Dei) and another conservative Catholic university group (CCO). My mother is conservative French Canadian but in all honesty, I don’t think she believes in God at all. My father is Polish/Italian Catholic though theologically he is closest to liberal, but liturgically High-Church Anglican. I went to a fairly conservative seminary by my own choice with the tacit support of my parents but great encouragement from all my grandparents and friends from university.

Adam
 
Your pride is destroying you. Mine almost destroyed me. You seem to have your viable options except the one that YOU disagree with. If and when you come back you’ll realize that pride is the potential ruin of us all. Sorry but it’s true. Being Catholic as you are “in some ways” is a contradiction, leaving you not very catholic at all…you either is or you ain’t, that’s what I had to ask (tell) myself anyway.

Peace and Love
 
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amarischuk:
Thank you Deacon Ed for your reply. My only concern is that since I am not really a devout Catholic in the strict sense, I would feel a little funny going and getting a dispensation from a friend. I feels like it would be a little “back doorish” for me to do that. I have given serious thought to the idea of a dispensation (and upon returning to Canada having the marriage blessed) and that is the best option but I don’t want to take advantage of the fact that I have “connections”.
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None of us are as devout as we should be. None of us are as holy as we should be.

Receiving our faith from our parents simply provides a foundation from which we can view the world. It’s at times of crisis that our faith can spring to life and support and sustain us – unless we suppress it.

One very wise priest told me, during a time where my practice of the faith was lacking, “fake it 'til you make it.” Surprisingly, as I went through the motions I found peace and comfort. It didn’t take long before I wasn’t “faking it” and had, instead, made the faith of my parents my own.

Do what is right, not what is convenient.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
None of us are as devout as we should be. None of us are as holy as we should be.

Receiving our faith from our parents simply provides a foundation from which we can view the world. It’s at times of crisis that our faith can spring to life and support and sustain us – unless we suppress it.

One very wise priest told me, during a time where my practice of the faith was lacking, “fake it 'til you make it.” Surprisingly, as I went through the motions I found peace and comfort. It didn’t take long before I wasn’t “faking it” and had, instead, made the faith of my parents my own.

Do what is right, not what is convenient.

Deacon Ed
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Amen
 
Don’t compound your problems by being a hypocrite. If you have doubts about the Church, man up and leave. Don’t try to look for some weasley way to have your cake and eat it too.

But then, I’m just an ignorant (non-thinking even) Catholic who believes everything the Church teaches. So what do I know? :cool:
 
If you get married in a protestant church, the Catholic Church will recognize your marriage as SACRAMENTAL and valid. A “valid” marriage is merely a legal term, which means that you have a marriage license. A church wedding is not needed.

The Catholic Church recognizes as SACRAMENTAL a marriage that occurs in any Christian church - protestant or Catholic. That means that God has a presence in your marital life.

So get married in the Protestant church and keep looking for the truth. Start with the Catechism. 👍
 
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EvaRebecca:
If you get married in a protestant church, the Catholic Church will recognize your marriage as SACRAMENTAL and valid. A “valid” marriage is merely a legal term, which means that you have a marriage license. A church wedding is not needed.

The Catholic Church recognizes as SACRAMENTAL a marriage that occurs in any Christian church - protestant or Catholic. That means that God has a presence in your marital life.

So get married in the Protestant church and keep looking for the truth. Start with the Catechism. 👍
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EvaRebecca, the only Protestant weddings that the Catholic Church considers valid and sacramental are those that take place between 2 Protestants. If you’re a Catholic marrying a Protestant, then in order for the marriage to be valid and sacramental you have to obtain a dispensation. No exceptions.
 
I woke up at this 3 am, can’t help thinking about the consequences of our marriage. My wife is a devout Protestan, loves God as much as I do. She doesn’t have any prejudice against the Catholic church. She simply loves God (she didn’t even know Martin Luther, until I told her 🙂 ). Being born and raised in a devout Catholic family, I have no problem accepting all or, at least most of the Church teachings that I am aware of. My knowledge about Catholicsm is not that sophisticated, although I am now trying to learn it more in-depth, and knowing about this mixed marriage problem is one of the result :confused: . I and my wife got married in a Catholic chapel last year, but blessed by her Protestan pastor, whom I know very well in our birth country. I was not aware until yesterday, that I need to obtain permission from the Catholic church for this marriage. At that time, I and my wife lived in two different cities (we don’t practice pre-marital sex) in Canada. Both of us are new immigrants to Canada (we met for the first time in her church in Toronto). I attend mass regularly (but didn’t belong to any parish at that time, except my old parish in my birth country) and started praying rosary, at least weekly. Would someone care to advise whether our marriage is invalid? And if it is, how can I make it valid? I never regret nor feel sinful to marry this Godly woman. Does the Catholic church consider me committing mortal sin? I made a confession few months ago and talked about our marriage to the priest, but he didn’t say our marriage as illicit.

Thank You,
Vic
 
Vic, that sounds like a grave matter, but not full knowledge and consent, because you were ignorant of the situation. It cannot be mortal. It seems odd you got to use the Chapel without anyone questioning.
You should go see a Priest and find out what you need to do. Check also liturgical documents.

Adam: question seriously whether you should even get married at all. Marriage is a huge responsibility. Only a person who is absolutely sure of himself should take it on.
Also, I doubt that you are well-versed in the Faith. All of us are ignorant until we behold the Beatific Vision. Even Thomas Aquinas said all he had written about God was so much straw.
All education is merely vain words unless the Spirit gives them life.
 
So far in this thread I have been called a hypocrite, a weasel, vain, proud, ignorant and weak. Thank you so much for that, it is little wonder few non-Catholics or liberal Catholics visit this site.

For your information, my “lack of faith” has nothing to do with ignorance. I am amongst the few people on this board, possibly on earth, who has devoutly studied the Church’s teachings, scripture, hisotry, theology and philosophy.

Furthermore, I led by many measures a very devout Catholic life for five years or more. I prayed the rosary daily, went to Mass daily or at least 3-4 times a week. I went to confession weekly or bi-weekly and visited a spiritual direct (an Opus Dei priest) monthly. I was involved in the liturgy, being the liturgy director at the University Chapel which was run by Opus Dei. I taught Catechism to children, organized the University soup kitchen and ran a young-adults discussion group at my parish.

I find it extremely ignorant and insulting whenever someone hears that I disagree with the Church on a number of issues and they assume that I am poorly catechised or only ever had a superficial encounter with the faith. Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that their is a very good reason why the great majority of Catholic theologians and philosophers disagree with the church on any number of issues (I can only put forward the names of Jacques Maritain, Yves Congar, Henri de Lubac, Karl Rahner, Hans Kung, the Joseph Ratzinger, Marie-Dominique Chenu, the young Avery Dulles, Abbe Journet, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Waldemar Molinski, Charles Curran, Thomas Aquinas, Erasmus, Dante, Meister Eckhart, Louis Olivier Duschesne, Molina and the list goes on)?

Is it impossible that someone should come to opposing conclusions about the faith through truly deep research? Or is it by some miracle that the ignorant, the uneducated, and the unschooled have a better grasp of the intricacies of the faith than those great thinkers who have dedicated their lives to persuing the truth?

About simply getting married in a protestant Church…the irony is this: I formally reject the faith and the Church views my marriage as sacramental and valid; I remain nominally in the Church and my marriage is not valid or sacramental.

Deacon Ed, about returning to the faith, for the last few months that I was in the seminary I had essentially ceased to believe but I continued to ‘go through the actions’ but their was a nagging feeling that I was doing what the Atheist Emile Durkhiem suggested for people to do if they wanted faith, just make it a habit. But a habit is not faith and I cannot behave like Kierkegaard and turn off my intellect and simply will myself to believe. Thank you for being so charitable in all your posts.

Adam
 
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amarischuk:
So far in this thread I have been called a hypocrite, a weasel, vain, proud, ignorant and weak. Thank you so much for that, it is little wonder few non-Catholics or liberal Catholics visit this site.
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Adam -

I’m sorry you got that impression from those of us commenting on this thread. I find that the people on this board are passionate about their Faith, and at times, they don’t hold back their feelings.

As for your academic experience in the Catholic Church, we may not be as well-versed or knowledgeable as you, but we know in our hearts where the Truth lies. Thomas A’ Kempis tells us in “The Imitation of Christ”:

“…knowledge for its own sake is useless unless you fear God. An unlearned peasant, whose contentment is the service of god, is far better than the learned and the clever, whose pride in their knowledge leads them to neglect their souls while fixing their attention on the stars.”
  • The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter 2
Simplicity, especially in the Faith, can bring one to a better understanding of God.
 
Firstly, Deacon Ed, I reread my post and I am sorry if it came across as sarcastic. Your politeness, suggestions and general demeanor has made it enjoyable for me to read your posts throughout this board and particularly on this thread. Once again, thank you for your gentleness and caring which is truly reflective of a “man of the cloth.”

And Tonks, thank you as well; however, their is a problem with your quotation. Firstly, it is disputed whether it was Thomas a Kempis who wrote the Imitation; but furthermore, just because Kempis alledgedly wrote it doesn’t mean that it is consummate with later Catholic developments. Not surprisingly this is the second time in so many weeks that the Imitation of Christ has been quoted forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=78033&highlight=kempis to me. That doesn’t change the fact that his writings run counter to Catholic and especially Thomistic philosophy and theology, let alone the very nature of apologetics. So do St. Bernard’s writings run counter to what Thomas Aquinas wrote, and St. Anselm of Canterbury, and St Bonaventure, and Saint Augustine…their is a serious medieval debate around these issues which leads me to recommend the very orthodox: Etienne Gilson’s “Reason and Revelation in the Middle Ages”.

But in the end what it seems to boil down to is often this:

Catholicism is SO rational compared to protestantism!

Catholicism is SO rational compared to athiesm!

But when reason fails, it must be because of:

a)pride

b)seduction by secular learning

c)the devil

That is, reason is Catholicism greatest gift over all the other religions… but… if you happen to raise legitimate issues after having explored a question with an open heart in a prayerful manner, you are (to quote Cardinal Newman) either a knave or a fool.

This just begs the question: Is Catholicism rational or is it a mystical/illumination/gnostic/fiedietistic religion?

I recall watching Archbishop Fulton Sheen address this issue and he simply dismissed it as a difference between the philosopher relying on the intellectual faculty while the devout illeterate grandmother relied on her volition (will) as if the two faculties existed in isolation! Needless to say I found the good Archbishop’s explanation less than satisfactory and though it utilized Thomistic terminology (properly Aristotelian terminology) it lacked the very unitative essence of Thomistic thought. I do not doubt that Thomas Aquinas rolled over in his grave when he heard the abuse his system was taking at the hands of highly devout yet highly innacurate interpreters.

The existence of this forum suggests that Catholicism is rational in its nature yet if you simply search my user name…amarischuk…you will find probably a dozen replies to my posts which state that I am either poorly catechized, a knave, a fool, or never was REALLY a Catholic (this sounds so “Baptist-once-saved-always-saved” to me that it is hard not to smile and wonder what are the true costs of the American fundamentalist conversions on the Church). These accusations are just evidence of the encroaching American fundamentalism in the Catholic Church.

Adam
 
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cyprian:
Being Catholic as you are “in some ways” is a contradiction, leaving you not very catholic at all…you either is or you ain’t,
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👍 👍
 
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amarischuk:
So far in this thread I have been called a hypocrite, a weasel, vain, proud, ignorant and weak. Thank you so much for that, it is little wonder few non-Catholics or liberal Catholics visit this site.

For your information, my “lack of faith” has nothing to do with ignorance. I am amongst the few people on this board, possibly on earth, who has devoutly studied the Church’s teachings, scripture, hisotry, theology and philosophy.
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Gee, thanks Adam, for gracing us ignorant rubes with your presence. You can differentiate the really smart people from the common herd because they’re always so eager to tell us just how smart they are. As for me, I tried reading books once but it gave me a headache. I’ve found books are much better when they’re eaten.

And, may I remind you, that you started the name calling in post #6 when you said:
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amarischuk:
I take no offense at being called a Cafeteria Catholic. I consider myself more properly a thinking Catholic though.
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Implying that those who fully believe all the Church teaches are non-thinking. And you’re shocked when people get irritated? I guess if you just sublty insult someone, they shouldn’t take offense. :rolleyes:
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amarischuk:
Furthermore, I led by many measures a very devout Catholic life for five years or more. I prayed the rosary daily, went to Mass daily or at least 3-4 times a week. I went to confession weekly or bi-weekly and visited a spiritual direct (an Opus Dei priest) monthly. I was involved in the liturgy, being the liturgy director at the University Chapel which was run by Opus Dei. I taught Catechism to children, organized the University soup kitchen and ran a young-adults discussion group at my parish.
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You can also tell how devout someone is because they’ll brag about that too. However, I’ve never once heard the really devout tell me how exactly they manage to move about with that huge beam in their eye.
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amarischuk:
I find it extremely ignorant and insulting whenever someone hears that I disagree with the Church on a number of issues and they assume that I am poorly catechised or only ever had a superficial encounter with the faith. Has it ever crossed anyone’s mind that their is a very good reason why the great majority of Catholic theologians and philosophers disagree with the church on any number of issues (I can only put forward the names of Jacques Maritain, Yves Congar, Henri de Lubac, Karl Rahner, Hans Kung, the Joseph Ratzinger, Marie-Dominique Chenu, the young Avery Dulles, Abbe Journet, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Waldemar Molinski, Charles Curran, Thomas Aquinas, Erasmus, Dante, Meister Eckhart, Louis Olivier Duschesne, Molina and the list goes on)?
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Such a temper! :tsktsk: Ignorant and insulting? My, my.

And just which issue does the Holy Father disagree with the Church? Birth control? Abortion? Homosexuality? Girl priests? It’s gotta be one of the biggies, right?
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amarischuk:
Is it impossible that someone should come to opposing conclusions about the faith through truly deep research? Or is it by some miracle that the ignorant, the uneducated, and the unschooled have a better grasp of the intricacies of the faith than those great thinkers who have dedicated their lives to persuing the truth?
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It’s always helpful to reiterate exactly how stupid we are and how brilliant you are.
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amarischuk:
About simply getting married in a protestant Church…the irony is this: I formally reject the faith and the Church views my marriage as sacramental and valid; I remain nominally in the Church and my marriage is not valid or sacramental.
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Why do you care? You obviously reject the Catholic Faith, or enough of it to be problematic. Just get married by the Protestants. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Stop dithering. I believe scripture tells us: *"**But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth." *But you’re the scripture scholar, not me, so I’m probably wrong about that. :tiphat:
 
Excuse me, but some of the comments I read made to the original poster here are simply rude. This man was obviously educated enough on Catholic Church enough to know that the authorship of The Imitation of Christ is disputed by some scholars. Rather than being under-catechised, he himself said he may have been *over-*catechised.

I am not a cateteria Catholic, but I know many who are. Some of them are my more educated friends and family members. When we read the stories of dissenting theologians teaching in Catholic colleges, stop and think about what they do to the faith of people like the original poster.

This man came here because he has a serious question about Catholic marriage. He cares enough about the faith to ask. Mixed marriages between Catholics and Protestants are very common, and also very difficult. And he is already struggling with some serious issues of faith.

To the original poster, in your list of things that you disagree with the Church over, I did not see the Eucharist listed. I strongly suggest that you go to Jesus in Adoration and pray that God restore your faith. If you haven’t been to confession in a while, I suggest that too. Marriages of mixed faith are more difficult than many will tell you. Stay close to God in the Sacraments.
 
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