Another modesty debate

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Hi. I was debating with my protestant net friend something related to girls’ modesty.
I don’t know if I have shown any disrespect to her but judging from how she handle the situation, I think I crossed her line.

And yeah I was purely asking out of curiosity.
I wouldn’t be able to understand why a girl still show her cleavage when she thinks guys looking at her cleavage is rude. So I asked her. She gave many answers but I still don’t get it so I pretend to agree with her to get out of the debate. Instead deep inside my heart, I do not agree with her at all.

My question was simple. “Why show it* in public* when hate to be seen/stared by public?”

Her answers (summarized by me)
  1. It doesn’t matter showing or not, girls dress to feel good. But if guys stare, he’s disrespecting her.
  2. Girls has every right to dress whatever she wants.
  3. Girls dress for herself.
  4. Girls dress to compete with other girls. (and how do they indicate ‘winner’? the one who got most attention?)
  5. Girls only want attention, not stare. (Can anyone help me to understand how does one get attention without being looked?)
  6. Some girls may want to tempt guy. (but my question is for the want to doesn’t want to show)
  7. Some girls do not know they will get unwanted attention (and I asked for those who already know? she still can’t answer it)
  8. A guy should not blame girls for his own weaknesses.
  9. A guy should respect her even if she shows it.
non of these answer really answer the question.

At that time her other net friend also tell her that the problem lies in the guy’s imagination, they mentally undress the girl. I agreed but tell her since my mind is trained, I do not undress people mentally in public or having lustful thought, but those atheist who doesn’t believe in God might have no guilt doing so.

I went on further to explain that she
will hardly get any attention/respect she wants the moment she wears immodest. A girl would not want the attention “wow, nice cleavage” “wow, she got big breast” etc but the moment they show cleavage, they can’t expect no guys to think like that about them. When my intention is clearly to let her know what exactly in guy’s mind, so that she will know she will hardly get guy’s respect for showing too much skin, she said I am blaming the girls for my own weaknesses. I defended that’s not my intention but she insisted to believe it.

This question is very simple. Say I have a $500 note but I don’t want people to look at it. then I stick in on my forehead and walk around, thinking whoever look at my $500 is rude. Why would I want to display my $500 on my forehead when I do not want people to look at it?
This very simple concept I really think she keep dodging it with unrelated answers.

In the end, I still do not have the answer to my question which was asked out of curiosity about what do girls really think. 🤷
 
Dear totallylost,

Thanyou for your interesting thread.

Incontrovertibly women who wear mini-skirts or dresses/tops with a low neck line, revealing cleavage, are dressing immodestly. Moreover, those who attempt to finely nuance this black and white issue and try to make it a grey area are simply being disengenuous and rebellious.

Whatever motives your Protestant friend has for wearing such indecorus attire they are, quite frankly, of no consequence. The fact of the matter is that if a woman dresses in a seductive manner and causes men to focus upon her legs or cleavage then she is culpable, the more so if she professes to be a Christian informed by Christian concience and teaching. She is arousing impure thoughts in members of the opposite sex and causing them to sin with their eyes (cf. St. Matt. 5: 28). Given our fallen nature with its popensity to sin it is morally wrong for her to dress in such a fashion so as to excite sinful and impure thoughts. As a professing Christian she ought to be aware of this.

It is a sad reflection of our times that many formerly better principled people, Catholics included, no longer see such alluring apparel as offensive and very shameful. This is the legacy of the permissive 1960’s when people started to “rethink” ethics and morals and abandon the taboos and principles of conduct of the older generation, with tragic consequences I hasten to add. Mary Quant who is credited with inventing the mini-skirt circa 1964 did so with the express aim of giving women some power over men and redressing a perceived imbalance. Thus one could say that the mini-skirt was born out of militant femenism and rebellion. Now why should a Catholic woman wish to don an article of clothing which had such an eregious beginning? This really beggars belief?

Catholic and Protestant women must dare to be different in these decadent days; they must strive to be women of moral rectitiude even if that entails being unpopular and being branded a Puritan maid.

Finally you might like to download the following Catholic Answers tract for your Protestant friend, which covers the very area now under discussion:

chastity.com/node/111

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
personally, i do dress modestly, so i can’t really tell you what these girls are thinking…
but in my opinion…and many others as i have noticed, dressing immodestly(for men and woman) is very disrespectful to yourself, and if you can’t have enough respect for yourself to dress modestly, then don’t expect much respect from others not to stare…
if you want to understand this subject better, and learn how to combat it, try reading this book - tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/669/keywords/dressing+dignity/

perhaps the thing girls like this don’t understand is, there are alot of sick perverted men out there, who enjoy looking at your body, and they don’t want to stop themselves, they want to look at you and fantasize about you, and who knows what sicko might follow you home because he liked what he saw…and sadly it happens, i’ve heard of instances where woman have been raped, and the rapist blamed it on the girls lewd dress, and got away with it!
that may not be incredibly common, but it’s a good example of what goes through alot of mens heads…
 
Just something, you can look without staring. She may want guys to notice, but once someone is being really obvious it could weird her out (1,4,5). It’s a little stupid, but possible.
As for the dressing for herself, women are taught you have to be sexy to be beautiful. So to feel good about the way she looks, she feels the need to look sexy (3,4). But that’s not really how she wants to be viewed.
Finally, there is fault on both sides. You can’t put all the blame on a girl for dressing sexy if you have impure thoughts, but it’s not right for her to dress that way and expect that no one will look at her that way(8,9).
 
Normal young women can’t stand being stared at lewdly, but the ones who determine fashion now are the ones who like it, and punish those who avoid it. Girls learn to imitate the controlling girls in elementary school. It’s a little like boys and the ones who patrol the school halls to punish the ones who are acting too effeminate. You internalize the standards even while not wanting to be around the ones who make the standards. Women eventually grow out of caring what the fashion enforcers think. The winner of the competition in young years is the girl with the latest style. Later in life it’s the one with the most appropriate, expensive and elegant style.
 
Well, first of all, men will also stare at the breasts or other body parts of a woman who is dressed quite modestly. Everyone has a body, and they are masculine or feminine because we are men and women. That is ok, and it is ok to notice someone is attractive. But it is very rarely appropriate to stare, or gawk in a lewd way.

As well, what do you mean by cleavage? A lot of clothes might show some if the girl is bent right over. But trying to get a good look at that is a bit like peering up the skirt of a lady changing a light bulb on a ladder.

And some men are just very creepy in their particular way of looking.

But in general, I think the pps have it right. Fashion makes it very difficult, especially for younger women. To feel like they are taking care of themselves and looking young and attractive (not dressing like mom) they need to wear something reasonably fashionable like others are. But what is fashionable now does tend to be “sexy”. There is a fine line between wanting to look like an attractive woman and wanting to be “sexy” because sexuality is part of both. Young women especially often haven’t mastered the difference.
 
  1. It doesn’t matter looking or not, guys stare to feel good. But if girls get offended, they’re being disrespectful
  2. Guys have every right to look at whatever he wants.
  3. Guys stare for themselves.
  4. Guys stare to compete with other guys. (and how do they indicate ‘winner’? the one who pays the most attention?)
  5. Guys only want to stare, not to engage in conversation.
  6. Some guys may want to be noticed by the girls.
  7. Some guys do not know the staring is unwanted.
  8. A girl should not blame guys for her own insecurity.
  9. A girl should respect a guy even if he stares.
Life is alot easier when you put the responsibility on everyone else.
 
I read a book about body language that said that women have better peripheral vision than men. Therefore, men tend to point their heads at what they’re looking at, which is why it is so obvious when they stare at a woman’s breasts, or legs, or whatever. Men also respond more readily to visual stimuli. I live in a college town, as well as being a (returning after many years) college student myself, so I see lots of young people every day. I am constantly being appalled at what I see young women wearing nowadays - and I have certainly never considered myself a prude. Schools don’t have dress codes any more, obviously.

Even men who are chaste gentlemen still have eyes, and it is natural for them to see what young women are putting on display. Don’t put all the blame on the men! Some of them have good self-control, but some do not. It is not very charitable to try to lead them into temptation.

I was walking across the parking lot from my car to the grocery store yesterday behind three young women. Two of them were wearing very short shorts - a couple centimeters shorter, and their buttocks would have been exposed, I fear. I heard one of the shorts-wearing girls saying, quite loudly, “This creepy guy came into work last night, and he kept STARING at me!” I couldn’t help wondering, Were you dressed like you are now? No wonder! :eek:
 
Guys: It’s the second look that’s sinful. :tsktsk:

Gals: Don’t display what you don’t want to be seen. :bigyikes:

This is biology. Men respond to visual stimuli. The more and better looking the stimuli, the bigger the response. That’s why the species is still here and going strong. I agree that this Protestant woman is being disingenuous. Does she think that all men are perfectly formed gentlemen? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

The best of us need all the help we can get in being the best we can be. :highprayer::gopray2::knight2:
 
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