Another Mohammad - Aisha Question ---- FOR MUSLIMS

[jakasaki]

Islam is like this.

Number one is the koran - their holy book

Number two is the sunna - practices/actions/performance of their prophet

Number three is the hadiths - written traditions of practices/actions/performance of their prophet (et al)

 

[SteveLohr]

inJESUS;5611152:

We are also misinterpreting (or could be) – he might have played dolls and toys with her before when she was just a child, and then, after marriage treated her more like a wife. …Of course, this still begs the child rearing portion of this…or, did she live with her dad until the marriage was official and Uncle Mohammad came to visit?

The 12 to 21 window that Hadi gave is what I think Muslims have to attest. He (assuming Hadi is a he) said that 9 is not agreed upon. I would like to see the sources saying, “9”.

Cleaning his clothes full of semen…when is that mentioned?

Also, I’m not sure I understand “thighing”. PM me if it’s too indecent for the forum, please.

The Quran also appears to give approval to intercourse with children. Consider also the Quran, Sura 65 (Abdullah Yusuf Ali, trans). In this sura, the waiting period for divorce is discussed. A period of 3 months is prescribed, to ensure there is no pregnancy. My comments are in bold:

Such of your women
As have passed the age
Of monthly courses**,[note: menstrating]** for them
The prescribed period, if ye
Have any doubts, is
Three months, and for those
Who have no courses [note: have not yet begun menstrating, i.e., female children]
(It is the same)

 

[seraphime2008]

The Quran also appears to give approval to intercourse with children. Consider also the Quran, Sura 65 (Abdullah Yusuf Ali, trans). In this sura, the waiting period for divorce is discussed. A period of 3 months is prescribed, to ensure there is no pregnancy. My comments are in bold:

Such of your women
As have passed the age
Of monthly courses**,[note: menstrating]** for them
The prescribed period, if ye
Have any doubts, is
Three months, and for those
Who have no courses [note: have not yet begun menstrating, i.e., female children]
(It is the same)

And this is supposed to be guidance from Allah? ……
I still can’t stop thinking why those muslims still believe that this must come from God!

 

[SteveLohr]

And this is supposed to be guidance from Allah? ……
I still can’t stop thinking why those muslims still believe that this must come from God!

A muslim would probably argue that the phrase “and for those
Who have no courses” addresses post-menopausal women. However, in context, I believe that interpreation to be wrong. First, there are the reliable hadith that have been quoted already in this thread that show Mohammad consumated his marriage to Aisha when she was nine years old. Second, the phase does not exclude children by adding a qualifier, such as “and for those Who are past their monthly courses” or some other construction that would show a intent to be applied only to post menopausal women. Third, muslims themselves appear to interpret these hadith and suras to allow for the marriage of children to men.

As far as why muslims believe the Quran comes from god: I don’t have a good answer. A dispassionate examination of the evidence shows that the Quran is unlikely to be based on authentic revelation from the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. But that is another thread…

Regards,
Steve Lohr

 

[jakasaki]

adstrinity;5611238:

The Quran also appears to give approval to intercourse with children. Consider also the Quran, Sura 65 (Abdullah Yusuf Ali, trans). In this sura, the waiting period for divorce is discussed. A period of 3 months is prescribed, to ensure there is no pregnancy. My comments are in bold:

Such of your women
As have passed the age
Of monthly courses**,[note: menstrating]**

for them
The prescribed period, if ye
Have any doubts, is
Three months, and for those
Who have no courses [note: have not yet begun menstrating, i.e., female children]
(It is the same)

Tafsir explaination is: 65:4

**They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age, **or delayed menstrual discharge as it happens in the case of some women, or because of no discharge at all throughout life which, though rare, may also be the case.

In any case, the waiting-period of such a woman is the same as of the woman, who has stopped menstruation, that is three months from the time divorce was pronounced.

Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur’an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49).

**Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her.

Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible. **

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=65&translator=2

 

[adstrinity]

A muslim would probably argue that the phrase “and for those
Who have no courses” addresses post-menopausal women. However, in context, I believe that interpreation to be wrong. First, there are the reliable hadith that have been quoted already in this thread that show Mohammad consumated his marriage to Aisha when she was nine years old. Second, the phase does not exclude children by adding a qualifier, such as “and for those Who are past their monthly courses” or some other construction that would show a intent to be applied only to post menopausal women. Third, muslims themselves appear to interpret these hadith and suras to allow for the marriage of children to men.

1. Do we know the context of the Hadiths? That is Aisha said she was 9 when she was admitted into his house, that doesn’t mean they consumate the relationship then.

The other hadith, could the guy have been mistaken about the relationship at 9? The evidence that the one Muslim in the thread posted doesn’t add up to 9. Let’s give Mohammad the benefit of the doubt, he took her into his home at 9, but, not into his bed until later. She was already proposed to be married long before her proposal to Mohammad so, it’s not like THAT is the issue…it’s another issue altogether, for sure, but, not the issue. Again, though, this is considered child grooming…

1. No, but, trying to use their own book against the Muslims is shoddy at best to try to turn them (and others) off to Islam. We know just because a book doesn’t say something, doesn’t mean anything.
2. Not all of them. I would gather a few amount of them. Since we do not have statistics…
3. This is off topic, but, it was mentioned in a post before that Aisha was playing with dolls. If it is forbidden, why is there Fullah and other dolls for Muslim girls now?

Again, to the Muslims out there, what are we missing by not knowing the full history? I would LOVE for the practicing Muslims out there to answer all this.

 

[SteveLohr]

1. Do we know the context of the Hadiths? That is Aisha said she was 9 when she was admitted into his house, that doesn’t mean they consumate the relationship then.

The other hadith, could the guy have been mistaken about the relationship at 9? The evidence that the one Muslim in the thread posted doesn’t add up to 9. Let’s give Mohammad the benefit of the doubt, he took her into his home at 9, but, not into his bed until later. She was already proposed to be married long before her proposal to Mohammad so, it’s not like THAT is the issue…it’s another issue altogether, for sure, but, not the issue. Again, though, this is considered child grooming…

1. No, but, trying to use their own book against the Muslims is shoddy at best to try to turn them (and others) off to Islam. We know just because a book doesn’t say something, doesn’t mean anything.
2. Not all of them. I would gather a few amount of them. Since we do not have statistics…
3. This is off topic, but, it was mentioned in a post before that Aisha was playing with dolls. If it is forbidden, why is there Fullah and other dolls for Muslim girls now?

Again, to the Muslims out there, what are we missing by not knowing the full history? I would LOVE for the practicing Muslims out there to answer all this.

As far as the context of the hadiths. I will copy and paste them below. I believe they speak for themselves:

*Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and **consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years *old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Both of these are from highly regarded collections of haddiths. However, the Bukhari is widely considered to be the most reliable. (see members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html)
As far as whether someone could be mistaken about the consumation at age 9-anything is possible. However, the question is not whether Bukhari is mistaken, but what Muslims believe. As the Bukhari collection is considered to be highly reliable and is very clear on the subject of when the marriage was consumated, the burden lies with the critic to establish that Bukhari is wrong. No haddiths that I am aware of directly contradict Bukhari, and even the Sahih citation does not contradict Bukhari, and can easily be interpreted to confirm Bukhari’s account.

Regarding your point #2. I’m not sure how accurately citing core Islamic texts is “shoddy.” I’m simply citing them and assigning to them their plain meaning. Instead of being shoddy, I’m taking seriously what the authors wrote. As such, I believe I’m being highly respectful of the writers. That I draw different conclusions than they intended is not being shoddy. If I were to accurately quote the Wansee protocols, and then claim the authors were homicidal maniacs, that is not being shoddy. That is providing an accurate moral interpretation of the document.

Regarding point 3. I didn’t intend to imply that all muslims believe in child marriage. It would be careless of me to ascribe such a universal belief to over 1 Billion fellow humans. However, large numbers of Islamic jurists do believe in child marriage. See generally:
asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=15000
(Saudi court confirms validity of marriage for eight-year-old girl); jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020641.php
(Iraqi Islamic scholar: Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was nine, and there is no minimum age for marriage in Islamic law).

Regarding point 4-I’ll defer to others on this issue. I don’t know that there is a clear Islamic teaching on the subject, and I personally don’t find it important, because it doesn’t affect human rights, as opposed to the child marriage issue.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

 

[meedo]

At what point is it that they consumated their relationship (among popular belief and/or tradition)?

**Well , one of the credible sources says that she was 9 . There are others who says differently, but to be quite honest. It is not something that makes a difference in the tenets of our faith. Because there was no legislation drived from this. Aisha was already courted for marriage by someone else before her parents agree that she is married to Muhammed. When Aisha hit puberty she was eligible to be married at that time. **

Do you know how bad this looks? A man who played with dolls with a girl who is young enough to be his daughter and then one day says, ‘We’re going to play a different game now’ or whatever he said? Ew Ew Ew Ew Ew. In 21st Century America, this is called child grooming, BUT, I will admit, the Koran was not written for 21st Century Americans, so, what am I missing in the culture or history?

**You are missing that this was 1500 years ago in Arabia.

It is not bad considering the circumstances. Aisha didn’t miss out on anything. Muhammed didn’t force his marriage to Aisha on the parents or anything. Yes Aisha was young and marriage was not her emergency list. But What injustice did happen to her exactly?

You imagine what you feel happened and you say Eww. Well , why not imagine that there is a husband and wife are doing an act that is the same as your parents did to bring you to life?

As Aisha hit puberty we should take the following into account :

No schools

No sport classes

No universities

No Jobs for women

She married a man which people considered to be a good man . Apart from him bieng a prophet.

He never hit her or abuse her.

They would race each other and have fun .

She praised him during his life and after his death.

**

This sounds really really pedo-worthy…even if things didn’t happen until she was 12 or 13, at what point in the relationship was he a mentor and a provider only and then her lover? Is it said who made the first move? Can you even think of your prophet like this? (We typically acknowledge he married a virgin, but, we do not dwell on the details…)

**We assume that he was her husband from the day they were married. In all aspects. I don’t see any problem with this as it does no injustice to any one and it doesn’t deprive any one from any opportunities. Yes i can imagine my prophet doing this and i don’t see him as done anything wrong.
**

best regards

 

[Fayle]

Er, girls hit puberty several years earlier than they did a few hundred years ago and the average age is still 12-13, there’s no way Aisha would have hit puberty at age 9, 1400 years ago.

 

[Jay53]

You imagine what you feel happened and you say Eww. Well , why not imagine that there is a husband and wife are doing an act that is the same as your parents did to bring you to life?

Because in doing so, one imagines a 54 year old man being sexually aroused by a 9 year old child who had just barely entered puberty and whose physical body (not to mention her psyche) would not have been fully ready for such penetration. That is definitely NOT the same thing as my parents bringing me to life. Not to mention the “thighing” incidents where Muhammad supposedly sexually gratified himself with a 6-9 year old child.

For myself, if he had been closer to her in age (and didn’t have other women with whom he could satisfy his lusts) I wouldn’t find it as creepy or reprehensible, but the situation as it is, IMO is not appropriate, particularly for a man claiming to be from God. Especially given the prevalence of sexual sins in society today. (This is not directed at Muslims, but all humans.) One way that Satan asserts control over people is through their lusts and sexual sins. This is another reason why Muhammad, allegedly as a prophet of God for all people at all time, should have been a better example in this regard.

 

[inJESUS]

It is not something that makes a difference in the tenets of our faith.

that is true, but questioning Muhammad’s actions and teachings rely on what he did and taught.

Because there was no legislation drived from this.

but million girls in the Islamic world are victims to Muhammad’s example since you believe he is the best of creatures, ashraf al Khalq no?

You are missing that this was 1500 years ago in Arabia.

but Allah supposedly said Muhammad is the eternal ideal example to follow and should have known how many million kids will suffer from this.

Yes Aisha was young and marriage was not her emergency list. But What injustice did happen to her exactly?

not mentioning what she could have undergone as a kid playing with dolls to a woman in bed with a 53 years old man, and not to mention all the jealousy and strives among his group of women, the greatest injustice was depriving a 18 year old woman from marrying again after his death. Can you tell me of one prophet given this “priviledge” before Muhammad? can’t you smell any fishy smell behind such “divine command”?

He never hit her or abuse her.

he did hit her once and caused her pain and let’s recall what happened between Aisha, hafsa and Mary the Copt and how a Quranic verse came down to threaten them with divorce and being replaced by “better” women who wouldn’t annoy Muhammad’s sexual habits…ya ragel!

 

[jakasaki]

best regards

Hi Meedo - nice to see you again ~

Quote meedo:

He never hit her or abuse her.

Meedo, he did hit her:

He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran.

He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house).

I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said:

Why is it, O 'A’isha, that you are out of breath?

I said: There is nothing.

He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me.

I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story).

He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me?

I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said:

Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?

She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it.

(Book #004, Hadith #2127)