Another Mormon Question - Jesus as Savior?

[MelanieAnne]

Hi LittleDeb,

I suspect that no one can answer you because there is no answer. Not in scripture anyway. Or at least, in any scripture that you would recognize.

Thanks be to God! Be grateful for that!

And let us all Thank God for our faith in the one, true Church, the Church that was actually founded by Jesus Christ, the Church that has never deviated from that foundation, the Holy Catholic Church.

Glory to God in the Highest!

 

[LittleDeb]

And let us all Thank God for our faith in the one, true Church, the Church that was actually founded by Jesus Christ, the Church that has never deviated from that foundation, the Holy Catholic Church.

Glory to God in the Highest!

Amen!

 

[Paul_G]

When Joseph Smith, Jr. first concocted the Book of Mormon, he had more or less orthodox views of God, that is, that there is only ONE God and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constituted that One God. There are some verses that he wrote that teach the Son IS the Father, or that the Son is the Father and the Son. So his early views of God included God’s Oneness to the extreme, with almost no distinction of Persons in the Godhead. But at least there was only ONE God.

For LDS Jesus can be referred to as the Father and the Son, Christ is sometimes called Father because of his role as Creator from the beginning before his mortal birth, and acting under the direction of the Father, Jesus was Jehovah, the Lord Omnipotent, through whom God created worlds

Jesus Christ is also known as Father through the spiritual rebirth of mankind as the foreordained Redeemer, he became the “author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” He is the Saviour. No person will come unto the Father except through him and by his name

Jesus is called Father because of the authority God gave him to act for the Father. He explained in Jerusalem: “I can of mine own self do nothing…I am come in my Father’s name”. LDS believe that all revelation since the fall has come through Jesus Christ, who is the Jehovah of the Old Testament…. The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally since the fall, and he has never appeared except to introduce and bear record of the Son" Latter-day Saints understand this to mean that, except when introducing the Son, God always acts and speaks to mankind through Jesus Christ.

It was not until shortly before his death in 1844, a dozen years after the Book of Mormon was written, that his view of God changed to include a plurality of Gods and the idea that God was once a man who progressed to become God and that worthy Mormons can repeat that process and become gods themselves over other earths whose inhabitants would worship those exalted Mormons as gods.

Some of what we understand will not by explicitly be found in the Bible, however, there is much of what the 1st century writers understood about the Gospel that is similar to that of LDS understanding.

 

[Paul_G]

**No, I’m sure you’re not the only one confused by Mormon theology. Ordinarily, the Mormon missionaries never get into becoming gods, etc. They like to hook their converts with other more benign things such as Family Home Evening, etc. Becoming gods is just not in the training manual for them (that’s my guess, anyway).

When you challenge them on WHO is the God of this earth, they may say “Heavenly Father” but then that leaves Jesus/Jehovah and the Holy Ghost out looking for another earth to have as theirs, I guess. It is all confusing and we know that God is not the author of confusion. The enemy is.
**

Milk before meat

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

Are you saying the God of Israel is Jehovah (Jesus) but the God of everyone else is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? I am trying to follow you here and I’m not sure that I do. When Mormonism makes three separate gods of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, what you say sounds like only the Son (Jesus or Jehovah) is the God of Israel. So, who are the other two the Gods of, if they’re separate and Isaiah excludes them?

Not quite, Jesus is in fact the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, and acts in all things in the name, authority and direction of His Father the “one true God” as the 1st century writers called Him.

Paul

 

[MelanieAnne]

For LDS Jesus can be referred to as the Father and the Son, Christ is sometimes called Father because of his role as Creator from the beginning before his mortal birth, and acting under the direction of the Father, Jesus was Jehovah, the Lord Omnipotent, through whom God created worlds

Jesus Christ is also known as Father through the spiritual rebirth of mankind as the foreordained Redeemer, he became the “author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” He is the Saviour. No person will come unto the Father except through him and by his name

Jesus is called Father because of the authority God gave him to act for the Father. He explained in Jerusalem: “I can of mine own self do nothing…I am come in my Father’s name”. LDS believe that all revelation since the fall has come through Jesus Christ, who is the Jehovah of the Old Testament…. The Father has never dealt with man directly and personally since the fall, and he has never appeared except to introduce and bear record of the Son" Latter-day Saints understand this to mean that, except when introducing the Son, God always acts and speaks to mankind through Jesus Christ.

Some of what we understand will not by explicitly be found in the Bible, however, there is much of what the 1st century writers understood about the Gospel that is similar to that of LDS understanding.

This is, at the very least, an interesting interplay for the myriad Gods that we have heard about so far in the Mormon pantheon of Gods. Please provide your Biblical basis for everything you have touted as scriptural. (And please, do not cite the Book of Mormon as scripture!)

Oh, and please be sure that you keep all the dieties straight! Please don’t jump from one to another and change people willy-nilly! We Catholics actually understand God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.

Thank you. Peace be with you. And may God’s Mercy be upon you.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Milk before meat

Paul

With all due respect ~

BALONY

This is not about “milk before meat”. That is totally bogus. It’s all about you basically saying “we can’t answer the question”.

Missionaries of the Mormon Church HIDE Mormon doctrine. (Unless they don’t even KNOW it, which raises the question WHY are they sent as missionaries?)

The actual truth of the Mormon Church is strange, if not WEIRD. Missionaries for the church do not address the weird parts, and if someone is knowledgeable enough to ask, they are told to give mis-directed answers. I have heard the questions, and I have heard the “mis-directed” answers. This information has been given to me by returned missionaries, so I am not making this up. (I couldn’t do that anyway! Because the truth, according to Mormons, is too weird!)

A church that is actually “true”, as the Mormon’s claim to be, would not need to rely on mis-direction, lies, cover-ups or any other sort of subterfuge It would also not have to rely on a total re-definition of GOD while pretending to the world OTHERWISE.

I will pray for you. If you believe the Mormon Polytheistic faith, I understand you are troubled. I will pray for your discernment.

 

[Paul_G]

This is, at the very least, an interesting interplay for the myriad Gods that we have heard about so far in the Mormon pantheon of Gods. Please provide your Biblical basis for everything you have touted as scriptural. (And please, do not cite the Book of Mormon as scripture!)

Sure these thoughts where drawn from (Heb. 5:9) and (John 5:30, 43)

Oh, and please be sure that you keep all the dieties straight! Please don’t jump from one to another and change people willy-nilly! We Catholics actually understand God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.

I’m not sure what your saying, could you show and example of willy-nilly changes?

Thank you. Peace be with you. And may God’s Mercy be upon you.

Thank you, and you.

Paul

 

[MelanieAnne]

To Paul ~ Cute, and perhaps some would say even clever, but, in the end, non-responsive.

Your response will be deemed as “non-responsive” until you give an actual response. Otherwise, it will be assumed you have no response because your theology is so lacking.

Remember, you chose this answer, you just cannot choose the reaction. Evasion is not a response. It’s merely mis-direction.

Luckily, for us Catholics, we don’t have to rely on hidden theology, or secret theology, or even “theology that we don’t know so we can’t answer questions about it.” It would appear that you cannot answer for whatever reason. Too bad. Please do not pretend that your non-answer settles anything!

But thanks anyway! Charity in all things after all!

And I am sure that many will pray for you that you will come to the ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH ~ the Catholic Church.

 

[Paul_G]

To Paul ~ Cute, and perhaps some would say even clever, but, in the end, non-responsive.

Your response will be deemed as “non-responsive” until you give an actual response. Otherwise, it will be assumed you have no response because your theology is so lacking.

Remember, you chose this answer, you just cannot choose the reaction. Evasion is not a response. It’s merely mis-direction.

Luckily, for us Catholics, we don’t have to rely on hidden theology, or secret theology, or even “theology that we don’t know so we can’t answer questions about it.” It would appear that you cannot answer for whatever reason. Too bad. Please do not pretend that your non-answer settles anything!

But thanks anyway! Charity in all things after all!

And I am sure that many will pray for you that you will come to the ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH ~ the Catholic Church.

I don’t know how you can say this, this has been Church practice from the beginning, because you disagree with aspects of theology, does not make this practice null and void. Could offer some scripture that nullifies 1Cor. 3:1-3.

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Perhaps you could offer your ideas on the above scripture.

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

With all due respect ~

BALONY

This is not about “milk before meat”. That is totally bogus. It’s all about you basically saying “we can’t answer the question”.

Missionaries of the Mormon Church HIDE Mormon doctrine. (Unless they don’t even KNOW it, which raises the question WHY are they sent as missionaries?)

The actual truth of the Mormon Church is strange, if not WEIRD. Missionaries for the church do not address the weird parts, and if someone is knowledgeable enough to ask, they are told to give mis-directed answers. I have heard the questions, and I have heard the “mis-directed” answers. This information has been given to me by returned missionaries, so I am not making this up. (I couldn’t do that anyway! Because the truth, according to Mormons, is too weird!)

A church that is actually “true”, as the Mormon’s claim to be, would not need to rely on mis-direction, lies, cover-ups or any other sort of subterfuge It would also not have to rely on a total re-definition of GOD while pretending to the world OTHERWISE.

I will pray for you. If you believe the Mormon Polytheistic faith, I understand you are troubled. I will pray for your discernment.

I don’t know how you can say this, this has been Church practice from the beginning, because you disagree with aspects of theology, does not make this practice null and void. Could offer some scripture that nullifies 1Cor. 3:1-3.

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Perhaps you could offer your ideas on the above scripture.

Paul

 

[MelanieAnne]

It would be useful for us to respond, once we had something to respond TO. Please review the entire thread. Then give your biblical quote to all those items not so far answered. That was the only purpose of my original interaction here. Cherry-picking responses is not helpful

Of course, if you are still in doubt, I am sure your local RCIA group would be most welcoming!

Unless and until you can give a comprehensive answer, please do us the courtesy of admitting such and moving on! THANKS!!

 

[Paul_G]

To Paul ~ Cute, and perhaps some would say even clever, but, in the end, non-responsive.

Your response will be deemed as “non-responsive” until you give an actual response. Otherwise, it will be assumed you have no response because your theology is so lacking.

Remember, you chose this answer, you just cannot choose the reaction. Evasion is not a response. It’s merely mis-direction.

Luckily, for us Catholics, we don’t have to rely on hidden theology, or secret theology, or even “theology that we don’t know so we can’t answer questions about it.” It would appear that you cannot answer for whatever reason. Too bad. Please do not pretend that your non-answer settles anything!

But thanks anyway! Charity in all things after all!

And I am sure that many will pray for you that you will come to the ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH ~ the Catholic Church.

Not quite sure what your are asking? If you ask a specific question, however troubled I am, I would be more than happy to respond to it the best I can.

Paul

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hey Paul ~

Scroll up! You’re not the first Mormon who has dkippedd an actual, and specific, question on this thread ~ so don’t feel alone!

Scroll up to the top of the thread ~ yes, that would be the first page of it now that there is more than one page ~ and see all the questions we have been waiting for an answer about. We don’t have a valid answer to any of them, and, speaking for myself, I can only conclude that there is no answer (but other posters may, of course, post their own opinion!)

The “Aw shucks, I don’t know what you’re asking me” answer just doesn’t work where there’s a lengthy history to refer to! Can you do better? or will you choose mis-direction and cop-out like so many others of your faith?

We actually want to know. This isn’t a “gotcha” exercise (unless your own faith produces that result for you, in which case, we owe no one to blame us!) We are all students here. We are all seeking answers, seeking validation, and, in some cases, seeking to argue the tenets of our faith to test our own strength in so doing. This isn’t some silly school-yard game. We want to know the answers to the questions we ask.

If Mormons posting on this board, and we’ve seen several, cannot answer legitimate questions, for whatever reason, then shouldn’t they just go away?
Because, truly, of what value is it, to either the Catholic or Mormon faith, to have someone assigned to post on a forum who cannot answer basic questions about the Mormon faith?

That you should choose to step up and attempt an answer, good for you!

 

[zerinus]

You have me confused with someone else. I have been Catholic for all 36 of my 36 years of life. I have just grown up and lived around many LDS for 33 of those years. I knew that was on the first page of the BoM. Please see my post #11. But now it is official. I put my request in writing and yet an LDS still won’t answer!

Please be more respectful. It appears rude when that is your reply to an honest question.

Sorry, my mistake. I confused you with tundramom to whom Alma had responded earlier on.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

**When Joseph Smith, Jr. first concocted the Book of Mormon, he had more or less orthodox views of God, that is, that there is only ONE God and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constituted that One God. There are some verses that he wrote that teach the Son IS the Father, or that the Son is the Father and the Son. So his early views of God included God’s Oneness to the extreme, with almost no distinction of Persons in the Godhead. But at least there was only ONE God.

It was not until shortly before his death in 1844, a dozen years after the Book of Mormon was written, that his view of God changed to include a plurality of Gods and the idea that God was once a man who progressed to become God and that worthy Mormons can repeat that process and become gods themselves over other earths whose inhabitants would worship those exalted Mormons as gods. **

More rubbish and unsubstantiated claims. I have already addressed this topic in this thread in posts: #85 and #89 where you have picked it up from.

The whole thing is so contrary to the Bible and any 1st century writers that there can really be no comparison.

More unsubstantiated claims and false allegations without any evidence to back it up. Trash piled on top of trash.

zerinus

 

[Paul_G]

Hey Paul ~

Scroll up! You’re not the first Mormon who has dkippedd an actual, and specific, question on this thread ~ so don’t feel alone!

Scroll up to the top of the thread ~ yes, that would be the first page of it now that there is more than one page ~ and see all the questions we have been waiting for an answer about. We don’t have a valid answer to any of them, and, speaking for myself, I can only conclude that there is no answer (but other posters may, of course, post their own opinion!)

The “Aw shucks, I don’t know what you’re asking me” answer just doesn’t work where there’s a lengthy history to refer to! Can you do better? or will you choose mis-direction and cop-out like so many others of your faith?

We actually want to know. This isn’t a “gotcha” exercise (unless your own faith produces that result for you, in which case, we owe no one to blame us!) We are all students here. We are all seeking answers, seeking validation, and, in some cases, seeking to argue the tenets of our faith to test our own strength in so doing. This isn’t some silly school-yard game. We want to know the answers to the questions we ask.

If Mormons posting on this board, and we’ve seen several, cannot answer legitimate questions, for whatever reason, then shouldn’t they just go away?
Because, truly, of what value is it, to either the Catholic or Mormon faith, to have someone assigned to post on a forum who cannot answer basic questions about the Mormon faith?

That you should choose to step up and attempt an answer, good for you!

MelanieAnne

I have skipped through, but as your comments do not make a lot a sense to me, I will take your advice and look a little more closely at the discussion in it fullness in an attempt to see where you are coming from. Talk to you soon.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

I don’t know how you can say this, this has been Church practice from the beginning, because you disagree with aspects of theology, does not make this practice null and void. Could offer some scripture that nullifies 1Cor. 3:1-3.

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Perhaps you could offer your ideas on the above scripture.

Paul

In St. Paul’s “milk before meat” analogy, he is writing about why he taught the Corinthians only the basic doctrines of salvation rather than the “mysterious wisdom” of God (because they were full of strife and bickering). He was not giving folks like you the right to teach investigators that there is only one God who has always been God and created the entire universe, then after baptism tell them the exact opposite - that there are really many gods and the Mormon god is just one in a long line of gods and he wasn’t always a god but used to be a human like us, and that he didn’t create the whole universe, but just “organized” this planet out of existing materials.

That’s not “milk before meat”. That’s lying - the old “bait and switch” routine. St. Paul never condoned deception to trick unsuspecting people into joining the church.

The other Paul

 

[Allweather]

The Mormons (and others) are always trying to use a Catholic set of writings (the Bible) to disprove Catholicism. It can’t be done.

They must take verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture, as well as out of context of Sacred Tradition in order to arrive at their heterodox interpretations.

This is the main reason I find it useless to argue Scripture with Mormons. They don’t see Scripture the same way Catholics do. It is almost like trying to argue in English with a Russian who speaks no English. If we all stood on the same interpretive platform, then it’d make sense to argue Scripture. For instance, we can argue Scripture with a lot of Protestants, because we have very similar viewpoints with most Protestants about the nature of Scripture, where it came from, and what it means, including the nature of God.

But Mormons are so far “out there” what with their unsavory opinions of the Bible, their “modern scriptures” and their Joseph Smith-modified version of the Bible, I just don’t see any way to meet eyeball to eyeball with them.

 

[Allweather]

I am wondering if it is not a forced agreement. Yes indeed the Hebrews claimed but one God, who LDS profess to be Jesus who is under the authority and spoke for his Father and his God (Jesus’ words). What I see is that the form and nature of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost in an attempt to conform to the Hebraic model have been changed by an act of intellectual redefinition of the Godhead. Some how having one God with 3 personalities conforms to being monotheistic, but does it really, I wonder.

Paul

Sorry, Paul, to be so tardy in responding to this, but I’ve been busy with work.

Yes, I do think the Trinity satisfies the requirements of understanding God as a unity, as well as dealing with the way Jesus revealed God to the Apostles. If the Apostles had adopted the plurality of gods that Mormons believe in, then they’d have started down the Pagan Highway, and by now it would have been ridiculous. But, God has oversight of the Church. He protected it from this error, by inspiring the theologians and the Magisterium to have proper terminologies and concepts with reference to nature of God, while also keeping the mystery of the Blessed Trinity, which in its fullness is incomprehensible to mankind.

I think we’re safest from error when we adhere to the ancient faith, the ancient teachings… orthodoxy.