Another Mormon Question - Jesus as Savior?

[Phil12123]

**It was not until shortly before his death in 1844, a dozen years after the Book of Mormon was written, that his view of God changed to include a plurality of Gods and the idea that God was once a man who progressed to become God and that worthy Mormons can repeat that process and become gods themselves over other earths whose inhabitants would worship those exalted Mormons as gods.

The whole thing is so contrary to the Bible and any 1st century writers that there can really be no comparison.**

Some of what we understand will not be explicitly found in the Bible, however, there is much of what the 1st century writers understood about the Gospel that is similar to that of LDS understanding.

**If what I stated in the above quote is accurate, how can you say “Some” of it will not be explicitly found in the Bible? Can ANY of it be explicitly found in the Bible?

And how can you say “much” of what the 1st century writers understood about the Gospel is similar to that of LDS understanding? What, if anything, would that include?**

 

[zerinus]

**If what I stated in the above quote is accurate, how can you say “Some” of it will not be explicitly found in the Bible? Can ANY of it be explicitly found in the Bible?

And how can you say “much” of what the 1st century writers understood about the Gospel is similar to that of LDS understanding? What, if anything, would that include?**

Neither “some” have any meaning here, nor “much,” nor “any”. Give us some specific examples, and we are in business.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

Neither “some” have any meaning here, nor “much,” nor “any”. Give us some specific examples, and we are in business.

zerinus

There’s a lot of overlap where Christians and Mormons are in complete agreement. For the most part, it seems safe to say that in terms of moral teachings, adherence to the Decalogue, we are on the same page. There are many other areas of overlap, too many to waste time listing here. We should agree on this.

However, there are also quite a few very key areas in which Mormons have completely fallen out of the boat. Heterodox notions about the nature of God, the sacraments, salvation, heaven, hell, and on and on. This is the cost of not submitting to the authority of the Church that Jesus established.

 

[LittleDeb]

Sorry, my mistake. I confused you with tundramom to whom Alma had responded earlier on.

zerinus

Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it.

I would be thrilled now if you would answer my question. If you just can’t or don’t feel qualified to answer, please direct me to someone who can. lds.org has no question/answer format. FARMS tends to be a maze that loops answers. My LDS friends say they lack the authority to answer.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it.

I would be thrilled now if you would answer my question. If you just can’t or don’t feel qualified to answer, please direct me to someone who can. lds.org has no question/answer format. FARMS tends to be a maze that loops answers. My LDS friends say they lack the authority to answer.

I think that you question was already answered; but perhaps my answer was too terse for you to fully appreciate. The best I can do is to readdress the same issues, but flesh it out more fully, with scriptural quotes. I glean the following questions from your earlier posts:

So you are the first I have heard say that this means that He is One God. I have heard tell many times that Jesus is THE god of this planet and that he is eternal. Similarly to how humans will be exalted to being THE god of their planet. Because of the pre-existence, they are also eternal, yet no one wants to define what eternal means in this case.

Jesus is neither “the One God,” nor “the God of this planet”. He is the Son of God, a personage distinct from the Father, and is Himself God. He created all things under the direction of the Father, and therefore is the God of all creation, not just of this planet. There is no such thing that saved and exalted human beings will become “gods of their own planets”. That is pure speculation, and has no basis in LDS scripture. Jesus is, and forever will remain, the God and Savior of this and every other planet. This is what is taught in John 1:1–4, and likewise in the epistles of Paul:

Hebrews 1:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Ephesians 3:

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This is also reaffirmed and amplified in modern LDS scripture:

D&C 93:

10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.

As far as the “eternal” bit is concerned, you must understand that there are certain things that are not comprehensible to the human mind, and it is futile to insist that one must necessarily understand them. One of these is the nature of infinity and eternity. Once upon a time people thought that the surface of the earth was infinite, so that you could travel along it as far as you wanted to, and never fall of the edge. Well, in a sense it is eternal, because you can indeed travel across it forever and never fall of the edge; but that does not mean that it is boundless. So something can be “infinite” in one sense, but not in another. Some astronomers and cosmologists believe that the universe is also constructed in the same way, so that if you travel in space in any direction in a perfectly straight line, you will eventually end up where you started from. Some mathematicians believe that numbers have the same properties, so that if you count to infinity you finish up with zero! Don’t ask me how, but apparently, it is something that some mathematicians believe can be proved. Even time is considered by some to have the same properties. Joseph Smith is reported to have said that “eternity” is a certain number of years long! So infinity and eternity, in the sense in which the limited human mind tries to envisage it, may not be possible, and may not exist at all. In LDS scripture it is taught that the intelligent part of man (whatever that is) is eternal. It was not created by God. It has always existed:

D&C 93:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Exactly how this works we do not know. You just have to accept that there are certain truths that our finite minds cannot fully grasp, but which God can fully comprehend. You still haven’t explained to me how Jesus, according to your own Bible, can be both God, and at the same time have another God above Him Whom He prays to, and Whom He considers to be greater than Himself; and how He can be “eternal,” and still be the “firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15); and the “beginning of the creations of God” (Revelation 3:14). Why are you applying double standards here? Why is it that difficult doctrines and incomprehensible mysteries permissible in Catholicism but not in Mormonism?

zerinus

Continued /. . .

 

[zerinus]

. . . /Continued

I get the “one in purpose” argument every time I bring this up.

We believe that the Father and the Son are “One” as taught in the Bible, not because they form a “single entity,” but because they are united in mind purpose, and will. This is the meaning that comes through in these verses:

John 17:

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

---

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.

Just as Jesus and His disciples were to be made “one,” but without merging into a single entity; the Father and the Son are also “One,” but without merging into a single entity.

I also get the argument that Heavenly Father is only THE god of this universe, and that all planets inhabited by human gods are to bring glory to Heavenly Father. In a sense it seems they are saying they will be the saviors of their own worlds. Or maybe that their worlds won’t need a savior because of the perfection that Jesus created here. Or that the couple’s “first-born” will be the savior of the new planet. No matter what I ask, I get the run around. I ask in the most respectful manner possible and usually end up with the answer, “that is not important to our salvation.”

Forget about people becoming “gods of their own planets” and “saviors of their own planets”. That is not LDS doctrine. That is speculation. It is not taught in LDS scripture; and it is not true.

I think one of the ways to better understand is to ask an LDS if they are allowed to say a prayer like, “Jesus, I adore you, Jesus, I worship you.”

Of course we can say that. Jesus is our God, and we worship Him as such. This is what is taught in LDS scripture:

2 Nephi 25:

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

D&C 29:

1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I AM, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

If Jesus is THE eternal God, then He is one in being with God The Father. If He is one in being, then praying to The Father is the same as praying to The Son and The Holy Spirit.

No, that is a doctrine we do not accept. We believe the Father and the Son are two distinct and separate beings, just as they appeared to Joseph Smith in the First Vision.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

Jesus is neither “the One God,” nor “the God of this planet”. He is the Son of God, a personage distinct from the Father, and is Himself God. He created all things under the direction of the Father, and therefore is the God of all creation, not just of this planet. There is no such thing that saved and exalted human beings will become “gods of their own planets”. That is pure speculation, and has no basis in LDS scripture.

now this simply isn’t true. Mormons have and still do teach eternal progression as the “goal” of this life. Let’s look at what is in the current LDS lesson manuals on this:

lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3bc55cbf541229058520974e44916a0/?vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=bea7767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3bc55cbf541229058520974e44916a0/?vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=87bdbe335dc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3bc55cbf541229058520974e44916a0/?vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c7e5f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

I wanted to post the links so that you could see the full context of these teachings. but here are a few important things to know about LDS doctrine:

*Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.
*“The Origin of Man, by the First Presidency of the Church,” 81

*“Thus all men who ascend to the glorious status of Godhood can do so only by one method–by obedience to all the principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. . . . If to obtain eternal life means to enjoy the same type of life that god lives and to experience similar experiences, then those people who receive it to the fullest degree shall actually be Gods.” *(Milton R. Hunter The Gospel Through The Ages, pp. 114-117)

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present his plan for our progression (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365). We learned that if we followed his plan, we would become like him. We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19–20).“Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family,” Gospel Principles, 11

You can see for yourself that it is NOT “speculation” but consistent teaching of LDS "prophets. Joseph Smith started it with this:

…God himself. was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! …

…These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. …
Joseph Smith Sunday, April 7, 1844.—[General Conference Report]

Don’t drink the koolaid. the truth is there for all to see.

 

[majick275]

here is what the current LDS “prophet” said on this:

On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62) and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1) Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this. Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father. He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe. He is the greatest of all and will always be so. But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom. (Gordon B. Hinkley Conference Report, Oct. 1994)

 

[majick275]

/snip…

Of course we can say that. Jesus is our God, and we worship Him as such. This is what is taught in LDS scripture:

No, that is a doctrine we do not accept. We believe the Father and the Son are two distinct and separate beings, just as they appeared to Joseph Smith in the First Vision.

zerinus

then why don’t
Mormons ever pray to Jesus? how can you worship him without ever speaking to him? and doesn’t their failure to pray to Jesus contradict their BoM? (scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/19/6-8,18,24-26,30,35#6)

 

[PaulDupre]

It is apparent that Zerinus’ argument is not with us but with his own church and its prophets. He rejects the doctrines of eternal progression that Mormon leaders have always taught. It is only a matter of time…

 

[LittleDeb]

Thank you Zerinius for your reply. It is indeed helpful. It is contrary to every reply I have ever received from devout LDS members, but helpful nonetheless. (I don’t bother to have “lukewarm Mormons” try to answer. I know that answer would not be true to the teaching.)

My LDS friends never say the prayer that I mentioned. They never say ‘Jesus, I worship you.’ They also will not say amen if I do.

Also, a quick “in a nutshell” response to some of your questions. An LDS “mystery” is fine as long as an attempt at explanation is made. You have done so, thank you.

Jesus often speaks differently when he addresses His disciples. Since He is the one person to be totally human and yet totally divine he speaks from each side. He says in Scripture that The Father is greater than he. He is speaking about his humanity. His humanity is created. His divinity is not. His humanity grew in a womb, learned to walk, and even had ‘poopy diapers.’ His divinity did not.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is One God while remaining separate persons. These persons are as LDS state, “one in purpose,” but they are one in being also. To be a fulfillment of Judaism, as Jesus stated, there must be only one God. Jews believe in One God. Jesus as a human was a Jew. His early followers were all Jews. He came “not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.”

Thanks for participating here. As I said, your answers are different from all that I have ever received but are very appreciated.

 

[zerinus]

My LDS friends never say the prayer that I mentioned. They never say ‘Jesus, I worship you.’ They also will not say amen if I do.

There are several points to be noted in that regard. Firstly, in the LDS Church we do not have “set prayers”. How a prayer is worded is never prescribed. In traditional churches such as the Catholic Church, there are whole books of set, written, or formulaic prayers that are prescribed for every occasion. In the LDS Church, that is an absolute no no. We disapprove of such a thing. Prayers in the LDS church are always spontaneous, and offered as the person is inspired or moved upon by Holy Ghost. The only exception to this rule are the two sacramental prayers, which are prescribed by revelation. “Jesus, I worship you” is prescribed or formulaic prayer which you are probably accustomed to. Well, if you feel comfortable in praying to God in this way, you are perfectly entitled to do so. But I don’t think you have the right to prescribe the same formula to everyone else. As a believer in Jesus Christ, it is my privilege and duty to worship Him; but how I worship Him, and what expressions I may wish to use to address Him, is my concern, not yours. You have no more right to prescribe that for me, than I have the right to prescribe it for you. But if you want to pray in that way, I have nothing against that at all, and I would happily say Amen to your prayers. Those LDS who have refused to do so have been misguided.

Secondly, in the LDS Church we are advised to follow the pattern established by the Lord himself in the New Testament for our prayers, which is to address the Father in the name of Jesus (Matthew 6:5–13). If He had wanted to establish a different pattern, He would have done so. The fact remains that He did not. I never cease to be amazed at how we can be criticised for following a pattern that the Lord has established for prayer, in favour of one which He has not established. However, my personal experience (and I think it is the same for other LDS) is that when I address the Father in prayer in the name of Jesus, that the focus of my attention often shifts from the Father to Jesus, and that is how I worship Him “in spirit and truth”: “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him” (John 4:23). That is how God wants us to worship Him; not by using trite, formulaic expressions such as “Jesus, I worship you”.

Also, a quick “in a nutshell” response to some of your questions. An LDS “mystery” is fine as long as an attempt at explanation is made. You have done so, thank you.

Well, I don’t think I tried to explain the mystery. If a mystery is explicable, then it is no longer a mystery. What I tried to explain was that there are mysteries which are in fact inexplicable, at least in our present state of knowledge; and therefore it is futile to demand an explanation for them. One must accept them in faith, until the Lord has given us sufficient knowledge (in this world or in the next) to be able to understand them.

zerinus

Continued /. . .

 

[zerinus]

. . . / Continued

Jesus often speaks differently when he addresses His disciples. Since He is the one person to be totally human and yet totally divine he speaks from each side.

Perhaps that makes sense to you; but let me assure you that it does not to me. So He has a divine side and a human side, and His divine side talks to His human side and His human side talks to His divine side? How weird! Can you point out to me which is His divine side and which His human side so that I don’t get confused between the two? And besides, what is the scriptural basis of all of this anyway? I don’t see any references made in the scriptures to His divine and human sides, and the two talking to each other!

He says in Scripture that The Father is greater than he. He is speaking about his humanity.

Keeps getting weirder all the time! So His own humanity prays to His own Divinity, and calls Him His God! And then His own humanity ascends to His own divinity! Wow!

His humanity is created. His divinity is not. His humanity grew in a womb, learned to walk, and even had ‘poopy diapers.’ His divinity did not.

What I read from this is that you are equating His body with His humanity, and His spirit with His divinity! I don’t recall reading that even in the Nicene Creed!

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is One God while remaining separate persons.

How? How can something be one entity and three persons? That is a monster (and an incomprehensible on!), not an entity. What is the scriptural basis for this?

These persons are as LDS state, “one in purpose,” but they are one in being also.

Well, the LDS idea of “one purpose” makes sense to me; but “one in being” does not.

To be a fulfillment of Judaism, as Jesus stated, there must be only one God. Jews believe in One God. Jesus as a human was a Jew. His early followers were all Jews. He came “not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.”

How come the early Christians believed in more than one God then?

zerinus

P.S. And you haven’t attempted to answer the second half of my question either: “how He can be “eternal,” and still be the “firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15); and the “beginning of the creations of God” (Revelation 3:14).

 

[majick275]

and I’m still waiting to hear how mormon scriptures show prayers directly to Jesus yet mormons don’t do it. as to following the example of how to pray that jesus taught, when do mormons ever pray the our father as taught in the bible?

Mormons do use set prayers as zerinus showed. so there is an obvious contradiction there and there other set prayers they have as well. most of the Temple ordinances use them. Baptism does as well.

Jesus humanity answers the questions posed by zerinus if you understand the Hebrew context of “firstborn”.

amgid/zerinus, you need to quit the proof texting and get out of the “scripture mastery” view of the Bible that you were taught in seminary. Look at the whole Bible in context. look up the situations those people were in at the time the various books were written and understand what mesages they were conveying. stop viewing everything in the Bible from a modern american ethocentric paradigm. Pray in earnest for understanding instead of for a validation of what you already want to believe. Let God lead you through the whole spirit with an open mind instead of only seeking “confirmation” of your current views.

The truth is evident but you have to seek it out. God bless you.

 

[truthsilence]

This has been an interesting thread to read. Its funny, I remember as a LDS I could not understand the Blessed Trinity at all, either. But I think I was trying too hard perhaps.

Something very helpful that Frank Sheed points out in his book “Theology and Sanity” is that there is only one being that has the Nature of God. One being, but three persons who, in answer to the question “What are You?” they, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, can all three answer “God”. But within that ONE Nature, there are three persons. It is a relationship. It is no longer confusing to me although it is still a wonderous mystery.

For me, a step toward accepting God as three persons within one nature came when I decided that it made just as much “sense” (if I needed God to “make sense”), as a “God” who had a Father (and so, a beginning-a time when he was not God) who had a Father, and he had a Father, on and on to infinity.(?) At the very least, the Trinity makes “sense” in context with the scriptures, (God always was God), and particularily when you see the Trinity as a relationship.

Some other thoughts based upon what I have read and experienced since I’ve accepted the doctrine of the Trinity:

Yes, the Father is Greater than the Son. The Father generates. His Word, who is also Eternal, became flesh.They communicate! The Holy Spirit (who proceeds from the Father and the Son) is also Eternal. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter. He is the Love of God working in each of our hearts. He communicates with the Father and the Son! They are an Eternal, amazing and beautiful relationship we are all called and welcomed to share in. Christ came as one of us to show us the way to that end.

Yes, with all due respect, Zerinus. If you don’t believe in the “eternal progression” stuff thats fine. Just don’t try to claim the LDS church doesn’t teach it. That would be untrue and you know it.

Peace and blessings to you.
ts

 

[Phil12123]

"LittleDeb:

Jesus often speaks differently when he addresses His disciples. Since He is the one person to be totally human and yet totally divine he speaks from each side.

Perhaps that makes sense to you; but let me assure you that it does not to me. So He has a divine side and a human side, and His divine side talks to His human side and His human side talks to His divine side? How weird! Can you point out to me which is His divine side and which His human side so that I don’t get confused between the two? And besides, what is the scriptural basis of all of this anyway? I don’t see any references made in the scriptures to His divine and human sides, and the two talking to each other!

No, His two natures, human and divine, do not talk to each other, but when He speaks the context of what He says tells us what He is talking with reference to. So when He says, My Father is greater than I, He is speaking in reference to His humanity or “form of a servant” (Phil. 2:7) to which He had humbled or lowered Himself to, from His previous state of the “form of God…equal with God” (Phil. 2:6).
"LittleDeb:

His humanity is created. His divinity is not. His humanity grew in a womb, learned to walk, and even had ‘poopy diapers.’ His divinity did not.

What I read from this is that you are equating His body with His humanity, and His spirit with His divinity! I don’t recall reading that even in the Nicene Creed!

**Do you recall reading Phil. 2:5-11? And John 1:1-14? Before the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, He had no flesh, no body. Obviously, the flesh body was His humanity. Why is that hard to see? What He had before taking a body was His Deity, which never ceased, but was simply encased in a body. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 2:9). Look at how that verse is rendered in other versions, all meaning the same thing:

–New International
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

– Living Bible
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ there is all of God in a human body;

– Revised Standard
Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

– New American Standard
Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

– New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Colossians 2:9 In him, in bodily form, lives divinity in all its fullness,

– New American with Apocrypha
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily,

– New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,**
"LittleDeb:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is One God while remaining separate persons.

How? How can something be one entity and three persons? That is a monster (and an incomprehensible on!), not an entity. What is the scriptural basis for this?

That is what the Trinity is all about, One God in Three Persons. The scriptural basis is simple: The Father is called God in Scripture, the Son is called God in Scripture, and the Holy Spirit is called God in Scripture, and yet the Scriptures also say there is ONLY ONE GOD. So the ONE God is the Three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the Three Persons are the ONE God.
"LittleDeb:

These persons are as LDS state, “one in purpose,” but they are one in being also.

Well, the LDS idea of “one purpose” makes sense to me; but “one in being” does not.

**That’s because to you, there is not just ONE GOD. To Christians, however, there is only ONE GOD. Christians are strict monotheists. ONE GOD, therefore ONE BEING.

(to be continued)**

 

[Phil12123]

part 2
"LittleDeb:

To be a fulfillment of Judaism, as Jesus stated, there must be only one God. Jews believe in One God. Jesus as a human was a Jew. His early followers were all Jews. He came “not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.”

How come the early Christians believed in more than one God then?

The early Christians, and all Christians since, believed in only ONE GOD.

And you haven’t attempted to answer the second half of my question either: “how He can be “eternal,” and still be the “firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15); and the “beginning of the creations of God” (Revelation 3:14).

**I don’t understand why you have a problem with verses like that. You are not a JW or an Arian who believes Jesus is a creature, so what’s the problem? In any event, if you look at the context of each verse, and how they may otherwise be rendered, you will have your answer.

Col. 1:15 may also be rendered thusly, in context with verse 16:

New King James
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

– Living Bible
Colossians 1:15 Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God. He existed before God made anything at all, and, in fact,
Colossians 1:16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory

– Simple English
Colossians 1:15 Christ is the image of God who cannot be seen. Christ is superior to everything that was made
Colossians 1:16 because, in Christ, everything was created: everything in the heavenly world and everything on earth, things that can be seen and things which cannot be seen–thrones, lords, rulers, and powers. Everything was created through Christ and for Christ.

Verse 15 cannot be read apart from verse 16, which explains verse 15. Christ is not called the “first-created”; there is another Greek word for that. Christ is the “firstborn” i.e., the one having preeminence over the others. When He took on the form of a servant and appeared as any other man, He not only was the image of the invisible God and identified with all other men, all creatures, but He had preeminence over them. Why? Because He created all of them! Now, verse 16 says He created everything, but if He Himself was created, then He created Himself, which is absurd. He didn’t. He has always existed. He is Eternal.

As for Rev. 3:14, let’s look at other renderings and the context:

–New International Version
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: “These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.”

– Living Bible
Revelation 3:14 Write this letter to the leader of the church in Laodicea:This message is from the one who stands firm, the faithful and true Witness [of all that is or was or evermore shall be], the primeval source of God’s creation:

– Simple English
Revelation 3:14 ``Write this to the messenger of the congregation in Laodicea: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Source of God’s creation says:

– New American with Apocrypha
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea, write this:
" `The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the source of God’s creation, says this:

– New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin {Or [beginning]} of God’s creation:

The Greek word for “beginning” or “ruler” or “source” is arche and here denotes not the first one created by God, but the One Who began the creation or was the source of it, or Who rules over it. In the context, the authority or importance of the Person Whose words follow is given first, so no one may doubt that those words should be heard and heeded. If He were merely another creature, even the first one, it says nothing of why anyone should hear what He has to say as the faithful and true witness. But since He created or was the source of God’s creation and rules over it, He not only knows all His creatures, including the ones He’s about to chastise verbally, but He is fully entitled to be heard and obeyed.**

 

[DianJo]

Phil12123 - Very, Very nice explanation! Bravo!
I’ve been lurking through this entire thread and your explanation is the best I’ve seen given!

Thank You!

 

[Phil12123]

Phil12123 - Very, Very nice explanation! Bravo!
I’ve been lurking through this entire thread and your explanation is the best I’ve seen given!

Thank You!

**You’re quite welcome. Now, if zerinus will just meet my challenge, issued many posts ago, to show me ONE single verse in the Book of Mormon teaching a plurality of gods (or Gods), we can see if Joseph Smith’s theology did indeed change from ONE God to many, etc.

Still waiting, zerinus.

Peace**

 

[zerinus]

No, His two natures, human and divine, do not talk to each other, but when He speaks the context of what He says tells us what He is talking with reference to. So when He says, My Father is greater than I, He is speaking in reference to His humanity or “form of a servant” (Phil. 2:7) to which He had humbled or lowered Himself to, from His previous state of the “form of God…equal with God” (Phil. 2:6).

I admire your efforts to throw good money after bad, and do the best you can out of a bad job, and defend the indefensible. But let me assure you that this does not make any sense to me, and I don’t believe to any other rationally minded individual who is honest with himself.

Do you recall reading Phil. 2:5-11? And John 1:1-14? Before the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, He had no flesh, no body. Obviously, the flesh body was His humanity. Why is that hard to see? What He had before taking a body was His Deity, which never ceased, but was simply encased in a body. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 2:9). Look at how that verse is rendered in other versions, all meaning the same thing:

–New International
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.

---

The first part of your comment does not make sense to me. So His body was His humanity and His spirit was His divinity, so His body was praying to His own spirit? Keeps getting crazier and crazier all the time!

The scriptural passages that you have quoted simply state that Jesus was fully divine, which I have no argument with.

That is what the Trinity is all about, One God in Three Persons. The scriptural basis is simple: The Father is called God in Scripture, the Son is called God in Scripture, and the Holy Spirit is called God in Scripture, and yet the Scriptures also say there is ONLY ONE GOD. So the ONE God is the Three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the Three Persons are the ONE God.

I whish it was that simple! The scriptures call the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost God; but they also say that:

1 Corinthians 8:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And also that:

Exodus 7:

1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

And also:

John 10:

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

And also:

2 Peter 1:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And also:

Deuteronomy 10:

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.

Daniel 2:

47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

Revelation 17:

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

That’s because to you, there is not just ONE GOD. To Christians, however, there is only ONE GOD. Christians are strict monotheists. ONE GOD, therefore ONE BEING.

That is an accurate descriptions of Apostate Christians; but that is not what the early Christians believed, before the church went into Apostasy.

zerinus