Another OSAS question

[VociMike]

This question came into my head and it is a completely serious question. It is not a “gotcha” question.

If one believes that they are saved, why not commit suicide and experience heaven right now? Why wait (and endure further suffering, and commit further sins)?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This question came into my head and it is a completely serious question. It is not a “gotcha” question.

If one believes that they are saved, why not commit suicide and experience heaven right now? Why wait (and endure further suffering, and commit further sins)?

ouch

I wasn’t expecting that kind of question.

 

[VociMike]

ouch

I wasn’t expecting that kind of question.

Well, obviously OSAS believers will reject the notion of committing suicide in order to be with God sooner. But I really want to hear what their reasons are. Seriously, why not die right after being saved? We know that early Christians tried to hold off being baptized until near the moment of their death.

 

[Mirdath]

Why not, indeed? If you’re positive you’ll get in and heaven is so much better than earth, there’s no point in waiting.

But still, be careful where you wave that question. By the same token, why bring more people into this world to suffer and sin at all? After all, unbaptized babies still go to heaven or at least limbo; then what argument do you have against contraception or abortion?

 

[VociMike]

Why not, indeed? If you’re positive you’ll get in and heaven is so much better than earth, there’s no point in waiting.

But still, be careful where you wave that question. By the same token, why bring more people into this world to suffer and sin at all? After all, unbaptized babies still go to heaven or at least limbo; then what argument do you have against contraception or abortion?

While I think such questions are worth addressing (Catholicism in particular should fear no question), the big difference is what one does to others vs. what one does to oneself. Your questions are fair ones, but I hope they don’t derail the thread.

 

[Titus03]

Well, if you’re saved, you won’t want to commit suicide. You’ll want to live your life for Christ. To end it would be selfish. Certainly, in theory, you would be in heaven, but if you are truly saved, the power of the Holy Spirit inside you will keep you from doing such a thing. I say, “in theory you would be in heaven,” but that is misinformed theory. In actual understanding of OSAS, you’ll see that the Holy Spirit is at work in the saved person, not that the person is perfect, but I believe there are certain things the Holy Spirit will keep the person from doing, I have no lists, but ending your life, or taking someone else’s, just seems like a bad deal.

OSAS doesn’t disregard the commandments of God, one of which is thou shall not kill.

 

[VociMike]

Well, if you’re saved, you won’t want to commit suicide. You’ll want to live your life for Christ. To end it would be selfish.

But isn’t our goal and God’s goal to get us to heaven to be with Him forever? Don’t we live our lives for Christ in order to be with Him in heaven? Why is it selfish to want to be with God in heaven when that is what we have been made for?

 

[Tietjen]

But isn’t our goal and God’s goal to get us to heaven to be with Him forever? Don’t we live our lives for Christ in order to be with Him in heaven? Why is it selfish to want to be with God in heaven when that is what we have been made for?

Hi VociMike,
I’m not a Protestant, but rather a Catholic who has spoken with many OSAS Protestants. One of the answers that I can see being used to reply to your question will be that “if a person is TRULY saved, they will not commit suicide.” This is often the answer for many “saved people” who later in life do something so horrible it begs to question the fact of whether they were ever Christian to begin with. For example, if a child of say 15 becomes “saved” but at the age of say 30 goes on a murdering spree, they will simply say, “Well, he was not really saved as a child. He was just fooling himself and us.” It’s almost as though they believe that onced “saved,” the Holy Spirit will take away certain parts of an individual’s free will, thereby protecting them from losing their salvation. They simply cannot accept the fact that despite accepting Christ as their Savior, they must WORK to maintain that salvation and will be held responsible for their actions.

 

[Alexius]

As I used to hold to OSAS, I always believed that one who committed suicide (if they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour), would enter Heaven. I never did so because I liked to look to Heaven as the end to your life, so I wanted to enjoy what the world had to offer. I would never have thought of committing suicide! My dad, however, believed that one who committed suicide was destined for Hell . This always upset me when I was younger. Nowadays, we both believe that a life of faith and works are necessary for salvation. I think my mom has a similar belief, too.

My Apologetics teacher at school, who holds to a belief similar to OSAS, believes that if the faith that you possess, is a living one, then you will produce works and ultimately be one of the elect. If you have a “dead” faith, it will not produce good fruits, and you will go to Hell. If you haven’t guessed it yet, he’s a Calvinist.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Alexius]

Hi VociMike,
I’m not a Protestant, but rather a Catholic who has spoken with many OSAS Protestants. One of the answers that I can see being used to reply to your question will be that “if a person is TRULY saved, they will not commit suicide.” This is often the answer for many “saved people” who later in life do something so horrible it begs to question the fact of whether they were ever Christian to begin with. For example, if a child of say 15 becomes “saved” but at the age of say 30 goes on a murdering spree, they will simply say, “Well, he was not really saved as a child. He was just fooling himself and us.” It’s almost as though they believe that onced “saved,” the Holy Spirit will take away certain parts of an individual’s free will, thereby protecting them from losing their salvation. They simply cannot accept the fact that despite accepting Christ as their Savior, they must WORK to maintain that salvation and will be held responsible for their actions.

That is a pretty accurate assessment of OSAS doctrine. It is very Calvinistic at alot of points…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Well, obviously OSAS believers will reject the notion of committing suicide in order to be with God sooner. But I really want to hear what their reasons are. Seriously, why not die right after being saved? We know that early Christians tried to hold off being baptized until near the moment of their death.

Well, let’s reverse it so that no death is required.

It would seem to me that OSAS would be a good example of being commended as one who pleased God: then they are no more, because God took them away-- taken from this life, so that they do not experience death.

I have actually wondered something similar-- but involving an exception from death. For example, both Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven without experiencing death. Perhaps they are the only two viable examples of once saved always saved– they are indeed fore-ordained according to Catholic thought to come again, die, and go to heaven. We know this is certain without a doubt-- even though they have not returned and died yet.

It seems to me that if someone is indeed truly saved and forgiven to the level that those who subscribe to OSAS claim they are, there would be thousnads if not millions of Enochian-like translations throughout world history-- people called up to God because they have been perfected in Christ.

And yet history has only shown two examples of this-- perhaps three if indeed Mary did not die before her Assumption into Heaven (and this goes against tradition as far as I can tell). And even in the case of Enoch and Elijah, even though they have not experienced death yet, they will still certainly someday experience death nonetheless. Even Jesus, who was certainly not going to lose salvation, had to die before rising again in perfection.

 

[Veritas41]

This question came into my head and it is a completely serious question. It is not a “gotcha” question.

If one believes that they are saved, why not commit suicide and experience heaven right now? Why wait (and endure further suffering, and commit further sins)?

The churches I belonged to that taught OSAS taught that suicide was a sin (not a mortal sin, but the question would be raised whether it was possible for a “true Christian” would ever commit suicide).

 

[Titus03]

But isn’t our goal and God’s goal to get us to heaven to be with Him forever? Don’t we live our lives for Christ in order to be with Him in heaven? Why is it selfish to want to be with God in heaven when that is what we have been made for?

Well, our goal is not to get to heaven. That is a selfish theology. Our goal, and our purpose on this earth is to glorify God. In all we do, we are to try to glorify God. We certainly do not do this, and very few live it out to its fullest, but that is indeed our purpose. To say that we live our lives for Christ to be in heaven is to say we do what he says because we just don’t want to go to hell. We live for Christ because of what He did for us. We, meaning true spirit-filled believers, should feel compelled by the love He has shown us, to do what He has commanded, ie, glorify Him. If a man commits suicide, or goes on a murder spree, no one can say whether or not he was saved or lost, but I think of men that go on these murder sprees, Charles Manson comes to mind, I think they are possessed by demons.

When you think of demon possession, I am sure most of you think of the Exorcist, deep scary voice, convulsions, etc, etc, but personally I think Charles Manson shows a form of possession. Powerful men, as well, like Enron executives and other business men, controlled by satan, not as openly as in the Exorcist, but something more subtle, something more useful to Satan. What benefit will he have from sending someone into convulsions? That’ll give up his cover. I know the possessed man that Jesus healed was an outlandish character, but I think there are many kinds of possession.

Anyway, I say that to say that I do not believe Christian can be possessed, I think we’re protected from such things. I can throw up some scripture if you want, but I don’t have any off the top of my head. I remember what I read and study, but I don’t memorize verses and such, I prefer to keep it in my head for practical purposes, not repitions.

However, from reading a few articles about demon possesion on this forum alone, I can see that my previous statement is contrary to Catholics beliefs.

Ok, so, if we cannot be possessed by demons, which are who I think urge us to commit suicide through the means of depression and drugs or whatever else they might use, then I, in turn, do not think a true christian would commit suicide, or go on a killing spree.

 

[VociMike]

Well, our goal is not to get to heaven. That is a selfish theology.

FWIW, I agree with you. I just offered that as a “discussion starter”.

But, do we not also glorify God by being saved and entering into an everlasting, perfect union with Him? Do we really glorify God more by living another X years and sinning each and every day of those X years? It is not apparent to me, if I’m thinking through the lens of OSAS, how I am glorifying God more as a sinner on earth than I would as a saint in heaven.

 

[Winchester]

Just for fun I ran this one by one of the Systematic Theology Professors at a Southern Baptist Theological Seminary not far from where I live. He said that anyone who commits suicide was, by definition, not saved and never was.

 

[VociMike]

Just for fun I ran this one by one of the Systematic Theology Professors at a Southern Baptist Theological Seminary not far from where I live. He said that anyone who commits suicide was, by definition, not saved and never was.

Interesting response - define your way out of the problem.

From this I take it that there are some sins which are proof positive that the person is not saved. Does anybody know what sins these would be?

 

[Valke2]

Why not, indeed? If you’re positive you’ll get in and heaven is so much better than earth, there’s no point in waiting.

But still, be careful where you wave that question. By the same token, why bring more people into this world to suffer and sin at all? After all, unbaptized babies still go to heaven or at least limbo; then what argument do you have against contraception or abortion?

None, I would think. Abortion should be promoted by anyone who believes unborn babies go straight to heaven, unless you believe that existence in the here and now is the true gift.

 

[Northwind]

There are a number of people here who are much more schooled and eloquent than I am. But let me offer a thought or two on this subject.

As to why those who subscribe to OSAS don’t off themselves in order to go straight to heaven? We are (as posted above) to live our lives not only to glorify God but to grow in Christ. If we understand our salvation and purpose as a believer then we know that we have been commissioned by Jesus to work with Him in furthering the Kingdom of God. Jesus has given us this purpose in the great commission to go and make disciples…

Paul tells us…

1 Thess 2:4-5
4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts.

We have been approved by God and entrusted with the Gospel, so we have a great responsibility and purpose.

God has in effect allowed us to work with Him in building His Kingdom. He could have done everything and left us to do nothing, but He didn’t. He has allowed us to partake in this work which He began. Part of that work is in ourselves, to grow and mature as believers, then to pass that on to both non-believers and younger, babes in Christ.

This has been touched upon above but, lets ask this again in one or two questions.

Why doesn’t God just take everyone who professes faith in Him directly to heaven at the moment of salvation? This way none of those who are saved at that moment will be lost later.

This other analogy might seem silly but it popped into my head and might be relevant.

A person doesn’t commit suicide after their initial salvation (loosely) for the same reason you or I wouldn’t commit suicide after winning the $100 million lottery. Once we have won the big $$, one could say that we have attained everything we could ever attain in this life, so whats the purpose? Well, the purpose is that you could help alot of people with that money. You could give it to charity and your church…lots of things. In the same way, believers have things they can do to further the Kingdom by; teaching, evangelizing, making disciples, growing in their own faith and maturity in Christ.

Thats the basic thought…

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

That is a pretty accurate assessment of OSAS doctrine. It is very Calvinistic at alot of points…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

TWO PROBLEMS WITH THIS

1. THE CONCEPT OF RELITIVE SIN
   A LITTLE WHITE LIE IS THE SAME AS MASS MURDER
   THEY ARE BOTH SIN
   NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE SIN’S ASSIGNED A RELITIVE VALUE

AS THE BIBLE STATES “THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH”

1. IT IS NOT MAN’S PLACE TO JUDGE A FELLOW FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST
   THAT IS A JOB FOR JESUS HIMSELF.

 

[AlegreFe]

If we were all saved, don’t you think that God would just do away with all this “stuff” of the world and just make Heaven for us right here and now?

It’s a good thing for Catholics who go to Mass, we are experiencing Heaven right here on earth. I thank God for that!!

Catholics believe that we are not saved until we actually get to Heaven. So how can we be saved here on earth? We can only hope that we can be saved when death is knocking at our doorstep.