Another Purgatory Question!

[Fuerza]

Everyone should keep in mind that the actual doctrine of purgatory is very vaguely defined. There are in fact only 2 points which must be believed:

1. There is a temporary state of transition which some souls, in need of purification, must undergo on the way to Heaven.
2. Prayers are beneficial for those in this state.

The rest is all speculation. The visions of the various saints in which purgatory is seen as a “reduced calorie hell” are private revelation only, and therefore not binding on the faithful. Even when the Church speaks of a cleansing fire, it is not indicated that we are required to take this literally (although one certainly may, and would not be committing heresy by doing so). Very little has been revealed about the nature of purgatory. The texts of the councils of Florence and Trent clearly distinguish between what is dogma and what is permissible opinion.

 

[Pro_Domina]

I just hope I die about 11:59 on a Friday night.

You have to know what time zone is Purgatory in.

 

[justasking4]

Everyone should keep in mind that the actual doctrine of purgatory is very vaguely defined. There are in fact only 2 points which must be believed:

1. There is a temporary state of transition which some souls, in need of purification, must undergo on the way to Heaven.
2. Prayers are beneficial for those in this state.

The rest is all speculation. The visions of the various saints in which purgatory is seen as a “reduced calorie hell” are private revelation only, and therefore not binding on the faithful. Even when the Church speaks of a cleansing fire, it is not indicated that we are required to take this literally (although one certainly may, and would not be committing heresy by doing so). Very little has been revealed about the nature of purgatory. The texts of the councils of Florence and Trent clearly distinguish between what is dogma and what is permissible opinion.

How does the catholic church even know the 2 points you make are true? Was it supernaturally revealed to someone in the church?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

How does the catholic church even know the 2 points you make are true? Was it supernaturally revealed to someone in the church?

Because we are led by the Holy Spirit. It has been reveled through the Word of God (Scripture + Tradition) and through the Teaching authority of the Church, granted by Christ. Its Catholicism 101 actually.

scripturecatholic.com/

You know, that same authority who composed the bible and infalliabliy declared which books are in the bible?

 

[guanophore]

How does the catholic church even know the 2 points you make are true? Was it supernaturally revealed to someone in the church?

Scripture is clear that nothing unclean can enter heaven, for one thing, and we know that many of us are still unclean at death, even though we are “in Christ”, we have a long way to go before “we shall be like Him, for we shall see him as he really is”.

We have received the Apostolic Tradition, which is to pray for all the saints, those still here, and those who have passed on the the next life. Prayers for the dead have been included in the very earliest liturgies.

 

[BLUEMOON74]

Scripture is clear that nothing unclean can enter heaven, for one thing, and we know that many of us are still unclean at death, even though we are “in Christ”, we have a long way to go before “we shall be like Him, for we shall see him as he really is”.

We have received the Apostolic Tradition, which is to pray for all the saints, those still here, and those who have passed on the the next life. Prayers for the dead have been included in the very earliest liturgies.

I say prayers for those to be released from purgatory and have been reading up on a lot of it lately. Those in a state of venial sin, or even after annointing of the sick cannot enter heaven. My question is, since we as humans are always in some state of sin no matter how small, so it would be considerend venial, and since no human is perfect, only God is perfect, how could any of us possibly enter heaven. It seems as if noone has a chance ever in this life. Any thoughts on this. Would appreciate any answers, thanks.

 

[justasking4]

Chaldean Rite;3998327]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How does the catholic church even know the 2 points you make are true? Was it supernaturally revealed to someone in the church?

Chaldean Rite
Because we are led by the Holy Spirit. It has been reveled through the Word of God (Scripture + Tradition)

Where in Scripture are these 2 issues:
" There is a temporary state of transition which some souls, in need of purification, must undergo on the way to Heaven.

Prayers are beneficial for those in this state"

addressed specifically? It certainly not stated in 1 Corinthians 3.

In regards to the claim that this is in Tradition would you happen to know where and when and by whom?

and through the Teaching authority of the Church, granted by Christ. Its Catholicism 101 actually.

scripturecatholic.com/

You know, that same authority who composed the bible and infalliabliy declared which books are in the bible?

 

[AlegreFe]

Thank you for the quote. As it comes from our Holy Father, I am sure it will be beautiful and inspiring. I will read it as soon as I find a magnifying glass.

I thought the same thing.

Here, I will repost it with bigger font. It is from his latest Encyclical Spe Salvi.

Pope Benedict adds

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.

 

[GailMac]

Geeze loueeze - I feel funny posting after a quote from the Pope! But…it is my understanding that the depth of purgation will depend upon what needs removal/purification on the soul itself and this is determined individually by the amount of purgations that are undergone in this life and the degree of sin in the soul’s life at the time of death. Each person is different so each persons purgation will be different. This might serve to explain why there is variation in the reports about Purgatory. There is much to be learned from the saints about this subject and it would take some study. I would also consider the sources for the various “revelations” about Purgatory. I’ve read somewhere that the soul’s attachement to sins committed during life and material things is a cause of increased pain during the purgation process - i.e. the more the attachment, the more pain in removal. Makes sense if you think about it.

Anyway enough from me on the subject.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. Don’t ever forget that the prayers we offer up as Penance and any personal sacrifices we make in our lifetimes will also effect our Purgation. Then there are Indulgences, whether partial or full and all our good works, etc…These will be measured in St. Michael’s scales at our particular judgement and will determine how much we need to suffer after this vale of tears! Pray always and when your done do it again.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3998373]Scripture is clear that nothing unclean can enter heaven,

Where does it say in Scripture where fire in purgatory is what cleanses a soul?

for one thing, and we know that many of us are still unclean at death, even though we are “in Christ”,

Not so. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ from sin now (I John 1:7). We are not dirty from our sins but are “clothed” with Christ… For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Galatians 3:27

we have a long way to go before “we shall be like Him, for we shall see him as he really is”.

If you would have read further you would found that we are purified already by keeping our hope fixed on Him— And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
I John 3:3.
Notice that there is no mention of any kind of fire or purgatory to purify us.

We have received the Apostolic Tradition, which is to pray for all the saints, those still here, and those who have passed on the the next life.

What apostle taught that we should pray for the dead?

Prayers for the dead have been included in the very earliest liturgies.

This would not mean its biblical though.

 

[guanophore]

Where in Scripture are these 2 issues:
" There is a temporary state of transition which some souls, in need of purification, must undergo on the way to Heaven.

Prayers are beneficial for those in this state"

addressed specifically? It certainly not stated in 1 Corinthians 3.

In regards to the claim that this is in Tradition would you happen to know where and when and by whom?

I am surprised that you would ask a question like this, ja4. You have already determined for yourself that there is no such thing as purgatory, and that prayers for the dead is a useless man made tradition. What is your goal here? You have stated that you are not here to learn…
"guanophore:

Furthermore, my question to you was, why do YOU want to discuss it, since you have already rejected the very notion. Why waste your time?

Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time. Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

Still wanting to make “bible christians” out of Catholics?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Where in Scripture are these 2 issues:
" There is a temporary state of transition which some souls, in need of purification, must undergo on the way to Heaven.

Prayers are beneficial for those in this state"

addressed specifically? It certainly not stated in 1 Corinthians 3.

In regards to the claim that this is in Tradition would you happen to know where and when and by whom?

You know how to use the internet and plenty of people have given you resources to figure these basic questions out yourself.

Furthermore, you make the assumption that everything should be contained in Scripture Alone explicitly. This is wrong.

Sola Scriptura: Defeated

 

[guanophore]

Where does it say in Scripture where fire in purgatory is what cleanses a soul?

This is what the Apostles taught us it means that everything will be tested by fire. God uses suffering to purify our faith and perfect us for our heavenly inheritance.

Not so. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ from sin now (I John 1:7). We are not dirty from our sins but are “clothed” with Christ… For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Galatians 3:27

This is the Catholic teaching on baptism. It cleanses from sn, an dregenerates us, clothing us with the righteousness of God in Christ. All sin, original and personal is washed away. We are pure before the throne of God. It is for this reason that many wanted to delay baptism until the last minute, because a person who dies in such a state of purity does not need any further purgation.

 If you would have read further you would found that we are purified already by keeping our hope fixed on Him--- And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

I agree. However, some of us are painfully aware that we are not always fixed upon Him, and that we fall short of HIs purity in many ways.

I John 3:3.

Notice that there is no mention of any kind of fire or purgatory to purify us.

Catholics do not depend upon pulling certain words out of bible verses for doctrine. The teachings of the Catholic Church all come from Jesus, through the Apostles. Therefore, if they are not mentioned explicity in certain places that is not a problem for us, since we know that scripture was never intended to contain all of the teachings.

What apostle taught that we should pray for the dead?

This was the practice of the Apostles, and it was included in the first liturgies of the Church. Not all the Apostolic practices are recorded in scripture. Don’t concern yourself with this though, ja4. You need not pray for the dead.

This would not mean its biblical though.

Skateboards are not “biblical” either, are they? How about my VW? Are credit cards? If it is not mentioned explicitly, it is not “biblical”?

How about Sola Scriptura? Altar calls? The sinners prayer?

 

[mommyof4]

How about Sola Scriptura? Altar calls? The sinners prayer?

Or OSAS?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3999383]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What apostle taught that we should pray for the dead?

guanophore
This was the practice of the Apostles, and it was included in the first liturgies of the Church. Not all the Apostolic practices are recorded in scripture.

Huh? Are you saying that you have some writings of the apostles that are not recorded in the Scriptures? What apostle do you know prayed for the dead for help or to intercede for him?

Don’t concern yourself with this though, ja4. You need not pray for the dead.

True and here is why—And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,–Hebrews 9:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
This would not mean its biblical though.
guanophore
Skateboards are not “biblical” either, are they? How about my VW? Are credit cards? If it is not mentioned explicitly, it is not “biblical”?

These things are not doctrinal issues.

How about Sola Scriptura?

Depends what you mean by this.

Altar calls?

Depends on what passages may be used. I can think of a couple i think might apply.

The sinners prayer?

I think Romans 10:9-10 applies here.

 

[justasking4]

Or OSAS?

Yes. OSAS is biblical.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yes. OSAS is biblical.

but nobody “found” it until 1500 years after Christ?

 

[justasking4]

but nobody “found” it until 1500 years after Christ?

How is it possible that once someone is in the grip of Christ that He would fail to save them?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

How is it possible that once someone is in the grip of Christ that He would fail to save them?

Sin. Why do you think the bible goes at length to say avoid sin? Whats the consequence of sin ja4?

 

[guanophore]

Huh? Are you saying that you have some writings of the apostles that are not recorded in the Scriptures? What apostle do you know prayed for the dead for help or to intercede for him?

Yes, the prayers of the Apostles are found in the liturgies, and their beliefs in the creeds. When they said that they believed in the “communion of saints”, they meant that the Body of Christ could not be separated by death.