Another Purgatory Question!

[BLUEMOON74]

How is it possible that once someone is in the grip of Christ that He would fail to save them?

I think that would be because we are human and screw up all the time anyway regardless of how “like Christ” we try to be. I am up late with the flu tonight, if I lay down I become all congested, so I am on here aggravated and frustrated with this flu. I have said a few choice words about it…there I just sinned. It’s just that easy. So now I am miserable with the flu and the perils of purgatory. This is rough to me. It seems like the majority of the world is making a long pit stop there first, but I guess a lower alternative would always be so much worse. It seems like there is no way for anyone to avoid it except maybe someone like Mother Theresa.

 

[Subrosa]

Huh? Are you saying that you have some writings of the apostles that are not recorded in the Scriptures? What apostle do you know prayed for the dead for help or to intercede for him?

Hi JFA4 -

Try Acts chapter 9:36-42. The verses that point out prayers for the dead are vs.37, “Now during those days she fell sick and died,…” and vs. 40, “Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed.”

The woman in the passage I have cited was without question dead and Peter without question prayed for her.

What Peter was doing was praying for a dead woman to be raised from the dead. This indeed what all prayers for the dead are for. In his case it happened more immediately, but he prayed for exactly the same reason that all who pray for the dead hope for.

Cool, huh?

Sub

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
How is it possible that once someone is in the grip of Christ that He would fail to save them?

Chaldean Rite
Sin. Why do you think the bible goes at length to say avoid sin? Whats the consequence of sin ja4?

If i understand you correctly this would mean that sin is greater in power than the death and resurrection of Christ. In Colossians 2:

it speaks of all our sins being forgiven, cancelled, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way…

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We can also couple this with the promise of the new covenant in Christ where it says in Hebrews 10:17 that our sins are no longer remembered by God…“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

In light of these passages i don’t see how we can be punished for our sins since Christ took that punishment for us and God no longer remembers them.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

In light of these passages i don’t see how we can be punished for our sins since Christ took that punishment for us and God no longer remembers them.

wow, what darkness you are in.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Huh? Are you saying that you have some writings of the apostles that are not recorded in the Scriptures? What apostle do you know prayed for the dead for help or to intercede for him?

Hi JFA4 -

Try Acts chapter 9:36-42. The verses that point out prayers for the dead are vs.37, “Now during those days she fell sick and died,…” and vs. 40, “Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed.”

The woman in the passage I have cited was without question dead and Peter without question prayed for her.

What Peter was doing was praying for a dead woman to be raised from the dead. This indeed what all prayers for the dead are for. In his case it happened more immediately, but he prayed for exactly the same reason that all who pray for the dead hope for.

Cool, huh?

Sub

When Peter was praying that this dead woman be raised from the dead was he asking her to do something for him or was he praying to God that He might raise her from the dead?

 

[justasking4]

wow, what darkness you are in.

How so? These passages are quite clear about what has been done for us in Christ.

 

[fhansen]

We can also couple this with the promise of the new covenant in Christ where it says in Hebrews 10:17 that our sins are no longer remembered by God…“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Forgiveness is only one part of the equation:
"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” Heb 10:16-17, from the prophet Jeremiah.

And:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1Cor 6:9

One more:
**“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” **Gal 6:7-8

In John 8, Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery but also told her to leave her life of sin. Some believers think that all people will enter heaven by the grace of God merited by Jesus-that there’s nothing to be done by man. Most Protestants have the opinion that we must at least believe in what Jesus did for us while Catholics think that faith means nothing if not accompanied by action-that what we do counts-and, in the final analysis, that one must be pure before entrance into heaven.

 

[guanophore]

I think that would be because we are human and screw up all the time anyway regardless of how “like Christ” we try to be. I am up late with the flu tonight, if I lay down I become all congested, so I am on here aggravated and frustrated with this flu. I have said a few choice words about it…there I just sinned. It’s just that easy. So now I am miserable with the flu and the perils of purgatory. This is rough to me. It seems like the majority of the world is making a long pit stop there first, but I guess a lower alternative would always be so much worse. It seems like there is no way for anyone to avoid it except maybe someone like Mother Theresa.

You give an excellent example of how we can make the most of our suffering in the present. Mother Teresa was a good example, because she joined her sufferings with those of Jesus. Such offering up of suffering benefits our own souls, as well as the Body of Christ.

" I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church." Col 1:24-25

Was anything lacking in the suffering of Christ? No, he took our suffering so that we could be in heaven with Him. But, as far as we know, He never had the flu, insomnia, congestion, etc. These common human sufferings of ours can be joined with the afflictions He suffered on behalf of His Body, the Church. In doing this, we maximize the benefits of our suffering, as well as participate in our purging, so that we need less of it later!

 

[guanophore]

If i understand you correctly this would mean that sin is greater in power than the death and resurrection of Christ. In Colossians 2:

it speaks of all our sins being forgiven, cancelled, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way…

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We can also couple this with the promise of the new covenant in Christ where it says in Hebrews 10:17 that our sins are no longer remembered by God…“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

In light of these passages i don’t see how we can be punished for our sins since Christ took that punishment for us and God no longer remembers them.

I can see how it might seem this way. You are right about Jesus providing the expiation for our sins. He paid our eternal consequence, so that we can be set free. However, many of the temporal consequences of the sins remain, and we have a responsibility to make reparation for them. Sin causes damage, and we can, through our sacrifices, help to heal some of this damage.

We are forgiven. Purgation (purification) is a cleansing for persons who are forgiven.

wow, what darkness you are in.

It is very difficult for persons who have lived all their Christian lives under deficient understanding of the gospel to understand these things.

When Peter was praying that this dead woman be raised from the dead was he asking her to do something for him or was he praying to God that He might raise her from the dead?

Personally, I think neither. I think Peter was praying to God, and asking that His will be done. If that meant she would not rise, then Peter would have accepted that. I think this verse is a weak support for the intercession of the glorified saints. He did speak directly to her, and tell her to rise. The passage does not demonstrate that he asked her to intercede to God on behalf of those who have not passed over.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

How so? These passages are quite clear about what has been done for us in Christ.

Christ died so that we may live.

He will judge us once we die (what is the point of this personal judgment?) and it will include our actions:

if you don’t think your actions can get you to hell, think about brother:

Matthew 5
22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5

29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Justasking - you seem to have your arguments against Catholic teaching pretty well grooved, so I won’t waste much time trying to pry your hands off your Bible for a minute to think about different passages from the same. But the Bible you are holding probably doesn’t contain the Book of Maccabees. If it did, I could point out the pre-Apostolic practice of praying for the dead to help them become free of sins. This is found in the Second Book of Maccabees, Chapter 12. Where would these souls be were they were undergoing purification from their sins and how could the offering of prayers at the Temple help them if they weren’t just as the Cahtolic Church teaches - somewhere not Heaven but not Hell and capable of having help from the living via prayer and sacrifice - in is a state of soul called Purgatory!

However, I have been told that Protestants threw these two Books away because there is much in them that points to how we practice our faith today. Kinda convenient if you ask me - I don’t want to believe something, and I need a Bible to support my erroneous ways so I start re-writing the Bible to only contain teaching I agree with or can distort to my own purpose. I find a book that contains several things I am working hard to refute and instead of re-writing the whole thing just toss it and find a reason to explain my tossing it!

Sound familiar?

You don’t want to believe Catholic stuff, so you agree to disagree and until your mind opens to ALL things of the Spirit you will be stymied in your personal spiritual growth. Your stunting your own growth, Justasking. I suggest you give it up because the Spirit waits, but He won’t wait forever.

Peace,

Gail

 

[jfoges]

Pope Benedict’s most recent encyclical, Spe Salve, presents the possibility that purgatory consists of staring into the eyes of Jesus and coming to terms with one’s own unrepentent sins. Those who are in a state of grace will not have to come to terms with anything and will simply be able to enter heavenly beatitude. I thought this was helpful.

 

[justasking4]

GailMac;4004579]Dear Justasking - you seem to have your arguments against Catholic teaching pretty well grooved, so I won’t waste much time trying to pry your hands off your Bible for a minute to think about different passages from the same. But the Bible you are holding probably doesn’t contain the Book of Maccabees. If it did, I could point out the pre-Apostolic practice of praying for the dead to help them become free of sins. This is found in the Second Book of Maccabees, Chapter 12. Where would these souls be were they were undergoing purification from their sins and how could the offering of prayers at the Temple help them if they weren’t just as the Cahtolic Church teaches - somewhere not Heaven but not Hell and capable of having help from the living via prayer and sacrifice - in is a state of soul called Purgatory!

Who was Judas Maccabees? Was he some kind of prophet in which God spoke through? Do any of the other OT writings refer to him as such?

If he is not a prophet or some kind of spokesmen for God then what we have here is this belief of a man without any divine support.

Here is what the New American Bible (Catholic Bible) says about this passage:
“[42-45] This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (2 Macc 12:42) and sacrifices (2 Macc 12:43) for the dead are efficacious. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Macc 7:9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

However, I have been told that Protestants threw these two Books away because there is much in them that points to how we practice our faith today. Kinda convenient if you ask me - I don’t want to believe something, and I need a Bible to support my erroneous ways so I start re-writing the Bible to only contain teaching I agree with or can distort to my own purpose. I find a book that contains several things I am working hard to refute and instead of re-writing the whole thing just toss it and find a reason to explain my tossing it!

Sound familiar?

Actually the deutercanical books were never fully accepted as canonical as the 66 were until the council of Trent in the 1500’s. It was not until the Reformation started that Trent elevated them. Keep in mind their were some at this council who against this move if i remember correctly.

You don’t want to believe Catholic stuff, so you agree to disagree and until your mind opens to ALL things of the Spirit you will be stymied in your personal spiritual growth. Your stunting your own growth, Justasking. I suggest you give it up because the Spirit waits, but He won’t wait forever.

I actually see the same going on here on the other side.

Peace,

Gail

 

[GailMac]

Dear Just asking -

you asked “Who was Judas Maccabees? Was he some kind of prophet in which God spoke through? Do any of the other OT writings refer to him as such?”

Well, if you bothered to read the two Books of Maccabees you would find out Judas Maccabees was a Jew who died for the faith along with his brothers and his mother. Then I would tell you that the Maccabees are remembered by the Church in its Liturgy on August first and though this feast has gone out of vogue, their sacrifice on behalf of our shared faith is heroic and has been celebrated not only by the Church since Jesus’ days on earth, but well before He came. Judas Maccabees and his brothers were men of renown, righteous men of faith, as was their mother. Can you claim the same? How willing would you be to lay down your life for what you believe? Or would you have eaten the proffered meat? I think you already have by compromising your beliefs.

Peace,

Gail

 

[GailMac]

P.S. Justasking - DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT TELLING ME WHAT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT SAID AND TAUGHT! DON’T EVEN GO THERE!

Peace,

Gail

 

[justasking4]

GailMac;4006077]Dear Just asking -

you asked “Who was Judas Maccabees? Was he some kind of prophet in which God spoke through? Do any of the other OT writings refer to him as such?”

Well, if you bothered to read the two Books of Maccabees you would find out Judas Maccabees was a Jew who died for the faith along with his brothers and his mother. Then I would tell you that the Maccabees are remembered by the Church in its Liturgy on August first and though this feast has gone out of vogue, their sacrifice on behalf of our shared faith is heroic and has been celebrated not only by the Church since Jesus’ days on earth, but well before He came. Judas Maccabees and his brothers were men of renown, righteous men of faith, as was their mother.

But was he recognized as a prophet by the Jews? Did have any spiritual authority in his day?

Can you claim the same? How willing would you be to lay down your life for what you believe? Or would you have eaten the proffered meat? I think you already have by compromising your beliefs.

Since i have never been in this positions you mention i don’t know. How have i “compromised” my beliefs?

Peace,

Gail

 

[guanophore]

Who was Judas Maccabees? Was he some kind of prophet in which God spoke through? Do any of the other OT writings refer to him as such?

This is a good question, and if you are open minded enough to understand your own family history as a Christian,the answer to it will broaden you. You probably have no idea what the OT says about him because some of the books have been taken out of your OT.

If he is not a prophet or some kind of spokesmen for God then what we have here is this belief of a man without any divine support.

Again you are putting little boxes around God. God used Samson in the same way that He used the Maccabeans, yet Samson is never referred to as a “propeh or some kind of spokesman for God”. God even uses the heathen to accomplish His purposes at times, and to day that the results are not from God then is very small minded.

Here is what the New American Bible (Catholic Bible) says about this passage:
“[42-45] This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (2 Macc 12:42) and sacrifices (2 Macc 12:43) for the dead are efficacious. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Macc 7:9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

And this commentary is a problem for you how?

Actually the deutercanical books were never fully accepted as canonical as the 66 were until the council of Trent in the 1500’s.

We have been over this and over this ja4. If necessary, I will post the links to the threads where this false statement of yours has been addressed in the past. Why cling to such lies?

It was not until the Reformation started that Trent elevated them. Keep in mind their were some at this council who against this move if i remember correctly.

The septuagint was the collection used by Jesus and His Apostles, and has been used continuously by the Catholic Church. I agree that there are some that have raised dissention,but their opinions have not changed the Church. We also have a demonstration from Jesus Himself authenticating the events recorded in the Maccabean revolt.

 

[justasking4]

P.S. Justasking - DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT TELLING ME WHAT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT SAID AND TAUGHT! DON’T EVEN GO THERE!

Peace,

Gail

Why not? Do you know all that Trent said?

 

[BLUEMOON74]

Why not? Do you know all that Trent said?

Hey man, are you “just asking 4 a fight”??? Forget Trent!
Know when to shut up, open your ears and eyes, and do your research.
You better start looking for those missing books smart a%^!

 

[justasking4]

Hey man, are you “just asking 4 a fight”??? Forget Trent!
Know when to shut up, open your ears and eyes, and do your research.
You better start looking for those missing books smart a%^!

Trent is crucial to these discussions. Have you read many of Trents documents that leads you to say to “forget Trent”?