Another Purgatory Question!

[BLUEMOON74]

Trent is crucial to these discussions. Have you read many of Trents documents that leads you to say to “forget Trent”?

Why would you continue to press the issue with the Council of Trent. Ok she said dont go there, yet you continue. We all know about Trent. Were not the ones lacking information here. You have a few pages torn out if you get my drift. I dont argue with people to insight a riot to make a futile point. That is just immature. Youre not going to convince a bunch of Catholics thousands of years are wrong by pushing a Protestant point of view that lacks substance. What I lacked in understanding of purgatory, I read up on. I read and I read and I read. Here I am a cradle Catholic that was never taught the severity of purgatory in CCD, CYO, or the private school I went to. That is probably bc I was young and things were not addressed in the 80’s and 90’s to children to the degree they are now. For instance, I didnt even know what abortion was until I was 15 years old. Now Catholic schools are teaching it as young as 1st grade. So I was lacking the total truth with rose tinted glasses on. I zipped my lip, I listened, and I did my homework. Now I know. Thank God that I do, I suggest you do the same.

 

[Vincent]

Trent’s decree on Scripture states nothing about the deuterocanon’s canonical history. To know that you’d have to go elsewhere.

Just over a century before Trent, session 11 of the Ecumenical Council of Florence enumerated the deuterocanonicals in its list of inspired books that the Roman Church “accepts and venerates”. It’s worthy to note that this enumeration was included in the decree of union with the Coptic churches.

But back to Purgatory . . .

Trent’s Decree concerning Purgatory is brief: stating only that there is “there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar . . .”

 

[justasking4]

BLUEMOON74;4009085]Why would you continue to press the issue with the Council of Trent.

Did not Trent say somethings about purgatory and other things?

Ok she said dont go there, yet you continue.

So what. She is not my authority.

We all know about Trent. Were not the ones lacking information here.

Since you claim to know about Trent why was this council called? What were the major things they did?

You have a few pages torn out if you get my drift. I dont argue with people to insight a riot to make a futile point. That is just immature. Youre not going to convince a bunch of Catholics thousands of years are wrong by pushing a Protestant point of view that lacks substance.

What are 3 points that protestants have against purgatory ?

What I lacked in understanding of purgatory, I read up on. I read and I read and I read.

Can you in 2-3 sentences tell me what your believe about purgatory?

Here I am a cradle Catholic that was never taught the severity of purgatory in CCD, CYO, or the private school I went to. That is probably bc I was young and things were not addressed in the 80’s and 90’s to children to the degree they are now. For instance, I didnt even know what abortion was until I was 15 years old. Now Catholic schools are teaching it as young as 1st grade. So I was lacking the total truth with rose tinted glasses on. I zipped my lip, I listened, and I did my homework. Now I know. Thank God that I do, I suggest you do the same.

Good for you…

 

[justasking4]

Vincent;4009100]Trent’s decree on Scripture states nothing about the deuterocanon’s canonical history. To know that you’d have to go elsewhere

Just over a century before Trent, session 11 of the Ecumenical Council of Florence enumerated the deuterocanonicals in its list of inspired books that the Roman Church “accepts and venerates”. It’s worthy to note that this enumeration was included in the decree of union with the Coptic churches.

But back to Purgatory . . .

Trent’s Decree concerning Purgatory is brief: stating only that there is “there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar . . .”

Thanks for the info. From what i have read it doesn’t help much.

 

[BLUEMOON74]

Did not Trent say somethings about purgatory and other things?

So what. She is not my authority.

Since you claim to know about Trent why was this council called? What were the major things they did?

What are 3 points that protestants have against purgatory ?

Can you in 2-3 sentences tell me what your believe about purgatory?

Good for you…

dont be such a sarcastic loser ja4. you believe what you want and i will believe what i know. since you are not my authority i am not going to answer your questions bc i dont have to. I only answer to God. Take that good for you:thumbsup: and stuff it.

 

[Subrosa]

If i understand you correctly this would mean that sin is greater in power than the death and resurrection of Christ. In Colossians 2:

it speaks of all our sins being forgiven, cancelled, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way…

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We can also couple this with the promise of the new covenant in Christ where it says in Hebrews 10:17 that our sins are no longer remembered by God…“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

In light of these passages i don’t see how we can be punished for our sins since Christ took that punishment for us and God no longer remembers them.

Hi JA4 -

Why did you stop at these verses? Why did you not continue to verses 26 & 27?

*26 **If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins **27 *but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

The writer of Hebrews also makes it clear that we can fall away from the saving graces of Christ’s redemption. He also says this in chapter 6…

4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Christ himself says that the nations will be judged in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25:31-46…

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

How do you explain these words in the bible, indeed Christ’s own words? Don’t they say that for all the forgiving Christ has redeemed that we can still fall away?

Indeed the Apostle John in his 1st letter, chapter 1, vss. 5-10 admonishes us by way of the Message given him by Christ …

5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

After reading these verses, wouldn’t you agree that we need to “keep on our toes”? If we fail to live the christian life, can we ultimately be unforgiven?

Sub

 

[guanophore]

So what. She is not my authority.

I could not help but notice the disrespectful and impudent spirit behind these words…

 

[Fuerza]

But was he recognized as a prophet by the Jews? Did have any spiritual authority in his day?

Since i have never been in this positions you mention i don’t know. How have i “compromised” my beliefs?

I don’t know what status, if any, he has among Jews today. I do know, however, that Orthodox and Conservative Jews (not sure about Reform) pray for the dead so that they may be released from their purification. It is said that after death souls may require as much as 12 months of purification, and that prayers on their behalf can aid them in the process. This is why Jews pray for loved ones for up to 11 months after their death. To pray for 12 months would be disrespectful, as it would indicate that the person was so bad as to be in need of 12 full months.

Note that this is much more specific than the actual Catholic doctrine on purgatory. I have never seen a protestant criticize a Jew for this “Roman innovation”.

 

[justasking4]

I don’t know what status, if any, he has among Jews today. I do know, however, that Orthodox and Conservative Jews (not sure about Reform) pray for the dead so that they may be released from their purification. It is said that after death souls may require as much as 12 months of purification, and that prayers on their behalf can aid them in the process. This is why Jews pray for loved ones for up to 11 months after their death. To pray for 12 months would be disrespectful, as it would indicate that the person was so bad as to be in need of 12 full months.

Note that this is much more specific than the actual Catholic doctrine on purgatory. I have never seen a protestant criticize a Jew for this “Roman innovation”.

Do you know how long this practice has been practiced?

 

[justasking4]

Hi JA4 -

Why did you stop at these verses? Why did you not continue to verses 26 & 27?

*26 **If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins **27 *but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

The writer of Hebrews also makes it clear that we can fall away from the saving graces of Christ’s redemption. He also says this in chapter 6…

4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Christ himself says that the nations will be judged in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25:31-46…

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

How do you explain these words in the bible, indeed Christ’s own words? Don’t they say that for all the forgiving Christ has redeemed that we can still fall away?

Indeed the Apostle John in his 1st letter, chapter 1, vss. 5-10 admonishes us by way of the Message given him by Christ …

5 Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

After reading these verses, wouldn’t you agree that we need to “keep on our toes”? If we fail to live the christian life, can we ultimately be unforgiven?

Sub

Contexts matters in the passages you quote here and deal with specific issues not directly related to OSAS. I do agree with are to “keep on our toes” in pursuing Christ. That in itself is evidence of true salvation. In regards to “failing to live the Christian life” we all fail in that. No one lives it perfectly and that is why there is forgiveness. Even forgiveness for sins we are unaware of. This is why the promise of I John 1:7 where it speaks of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin. This is not something we ask for on a daily basis but it is part of our relationship and union with Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Contexts matters in the passages you quote here and deal with specific issues not directly related to OSAS.

Such a perspective is the fruit of the separation and division spawned by the Reformers. Catholics do not separate certain verses, passages, and books and categorize them by saying “the passages here do (or do not) deal with____________” On the contrary, Catholic conform to the Apostolic method of taking all of the scriptures together as a whole. we understand each passage in relation to all the others, whether they use the specific language or not.

That being said, you are in error. All the passages relate to salvation. They do not relate to OSAS because this is not part of the Apostolic Teaching,and that is why it does not appear in the New Testament.

I do agree with are to “keep on our toes” in pursuing Christ.

With all due respect, this phrase is not found in the NT either. Is that in some other book next to “OSAS”?

That in itself is evidence of true salvation. In regards to “failing to live the Christian life” we all fail in that. No one lives it perfectly and that is why there is forgiveness. Even forgiveness for sins we are unaware of. This is why the promise of I John 1:7 where it speaks of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

This is not something we ask for on a daily basis but it is part of our relationship and union with Christ.

Well, suit yourself. The Gospel clearly states that “if we confess our sins,… then he is faithful to forgive”. This is what is known as a conditional statement. The stated outcome is dependent upon the condition stated.

 

[justasking4]

Such a perspective is the fruit of the separation and division spawned by the Reformers. Catholics do not separate certain verses, passages, and books and categorize them by saying “the passages here do (or do not) deal with____________” On the contrary, Catholic conform to the Apostolic method of taking all of the scriptures together as a whole. we understand each passage in relation to all the others, whether they use the specific language or not.

That being said, you are in error. All the passages relate to salvation. They do not relate to OSAS because this is not part of the Apostolic Teaching,and that is why it does not appear in the New Testament.

With all due respect, this phrase is not found in the NT either. Is that in some other book next to “OSAS”?

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

Well, suit yourself. The Gospel clearly states that “if we confess our sins,… then he is faithful to forgive”. This is what is known as a conditional statement. The stated outcome is dependent upon the condition stated.

How does the “blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins” work in catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?

 

[atmmgraves]

guanophore - and others - have answered justasking4 and when answered, he moves on to other questions, such as: “How does the ‘blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins’ work in Catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?”

This sort of needling is not intelligent query; it strikes me as an attempt at agitation. Let me ask you, justasking4, the same question you have posed to this forum: How does the ‘blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins’ work in your theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?"

Please answer for credibility purposes.

 

[Fuerza]

Do you know how long this practice has been practiced?

The practice goes back to Old Testament times. Even if you don’t believe that the book of Maccabees is inspired, at the very least it is evidence that the practice of prayer for the dead was not unheard of. This Wikipedia article gives a little on the history of prayer for the dead in both Jewish and Christian traditions. Note that every Christian Church in existence before the reformation believed in prayer for the dead. This is probably not what you were looking for, but it’s a start.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead

 

[Subrosa]

Contexts matters in the passages you quote here and deal with specific issues not directly related to OSAS. I do agree with are to “keep on our toes” in pursuing Christ. That in itself is evidence of true salvation. In regards to “failing to live the Christian life” we all fail in that. No one lives it perfectly and that is why there is forgiveness. Even forgiveness for sins we are unaware of. This is why the promise of I John 1:7 where it speaks of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from sin. This is not something we ask for on a daily basis but it is part of our relationship and union with Christ.

Hi JFA4 -

The context is this - the letter is read to assemblies all over the world. Therefore it carries the same message.

The message was being addressed to a congregation, presumably christians, therefore it is addressed to us.

The message is clear - we can and do fall from the grace given us by Christ’s sacrifice. Upon our death we will stand before a judge and we will be found either worthy or not. This is a very clear message in the bible.

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

How does the “blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins” work in catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?

Conditioned on our own acceptance of our accountability.

Repentence is the condition, as in Revelation chapter 2:

1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus, write this: " 'The one who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks in the midst of the seven gold lampstands says this:
2 "I know your works, your labor, and your endurance, and that you cannot tolerate the wicked; you have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and discovered that they are impostors.
3 Moreover, you have endurance and have suffered for my name, and you have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first.
5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

The people in the church in Ephesus were certainly born again, baptized christians who had accepted Christ as thier Lord and Savior, but as the text shows, had fallen away.

With repentence the promise Christ’s saving sacrifice will be applied to them. Verse 5 shows exactly what I have been saying. First admission of responsibility (Realize how far you have fallen), then an either/or statement (*Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place,) *Either eternal punishment, or application of Christ’s saving sacrifice with repentence (unless you repent.) .

The same applies to us, including you. Christ’s sacrifice has qualifications attached to it, but is available to all.

Subrosa

 

[justasking4]

Hi JFA4 -

The context is this - the letter is read to assemblies all over the world. Therefore it carries the same message.

The message was being addressed to a congregation, presumably christians, therefore it is addressed to us.

The message is clear - we can and do fall from the grace given us by Christ’s sacrifice. Upon our death we will stand before a judge and we will be found either worthy or not. This is a very clear message in the bible.

Sub

On what basis do you think we will be found worthy?

 

[guanophore]

How does the “blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins” work in catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?

The Apostles taught us that baptism is what brings us into His kingdom, and is the sacrament by which we participate in His death and resurrection.

When one is washed in the Blood, the garments become white, and we are cleansed “white as snow”.

guanophore - and others - have answered justasking4 and when answered, he moves on to other questions, such as: “How does the ‘blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins’ work in Catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?”

This sort of needling is not intelligent query; it strikes me as an attempt at agitation.

You have correctly identified ja4’s special ministry at CAF.

He has also said that he never gets tired of doing it.

The practice goes back to Old Testament times. Even if you don’t believe that the book of Maccabees is inspired, at the very least it is evidence that the practice of prayer for the dead was not unheard of. This Wikipedia article gives a little on the history of prayer for the dead in both Jewish and Christian traditions. Note that every Christian Church in existence before the reformation believed in prayer for the dead. This is probably not what you were looking for, but it’s a start.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead

You are right, he is not looking for information at all. He is only here to ply his mission to covert Catholics in to bible christians.

He has already made up his mind that Purgatory is a man made false doctrine of men, not found in the Bible. He just wants to get the rest of us to see that too.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4029271]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How does the “blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins” work in catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?

guanophore
The Apostles taught us that baptism is what brings us into His kingdom, and is the sacrament by which we participate in His death and resurrection.

When one is washed in the Blood, the garments become white, and we are cleansed “white as snow”.

Are you saying that this washing in the blood is a one time event at baptism and that is it?

 

[GailMac]

Dear Just asking -

Sorry for the delay in responding to you about Trent, but my computer hasn’t been working properly these past few days. They fixed it yesterday, but as I’ve read through, I see you have been given some of the FACTS about Trent and I see you’ve ignored them for the most part.

You stated erroneously in post 53: “Actually the deutercanical books were never fully accepted as canonical as the 66 were until the council of Trent in the 1500’s. It was not until the Reformation started that Trent elevated them. Keep in mind their were some at this council who against this move if i remember correctly.”

This I suppose is an attempt to “teach” Catholics what we have done in the past and so, re-write history with a twist that favors Protestantisms. This only works on those who don’t know the history of the Church, those little lambs the wolves try to scatter. But we have many who feed the flock and protect those little lambs from the wolves who would fill them with thorns and thistles of doubt, speculations and mis-information.

As for your denigration of the sacrifice of the Maccabees, who you practically treat with scorn, I can only pray for you. You probably feel the same about the Martyrs of the early Church! The Blood of the Martyrs is the seed of the Church! And to have it smeared by someone is more than I can respond to and remain charitable. Sorry, but I think it is a horrid thing to do.

I see you have ignored the original Scriptural proofs of the practice of praying for the dead and sending to the Temple for prayers and sacrifices to expiate the sins of those who had died wearing the offending amulets. If you believe that the Word of God is as Holy as you claim and since you base your beliefs on It’s examples, why ignore this one? Do you desire to NOT believe in Purgatory and so remain snuggly in your Protestant clothes?

I noticed you recently asked: “How does the “blood of Christ cleanse us from all sins” work in catholic theology? Is it something you must ask for or is it automatic?” What an interesting question…This is the Mercy of God, His Precious Blood shed upon the Cross for our salvation. He is Divine Mercy. He is Love. His Blood is poured out upon my soul when I receive the Absolution in the Sacrament of Confession and my soul is restored to its Baptismal grace. I have washed my Baptismal garment in the Blood of the Spotless Lamb, and when I leave the Confessional His Blood strengthens me to fight my own personal sins so that coming to His Holy table to receive Him in Communion, I can rest with Him a few moments knowing my soul is pleasing to Him, for He has visited this little house and swept it clean.

Justasking, there are literally hundreds of beautiful and eloquent sources for studies on the Precious Blood and the Mercy of God found in the Sacrament of Mercy, Confession extant in the libraries the world over. If you can hold your tongue in check long enough, you could read them and benefit from the grace imparted to a willing soul from reading spiritually edfying material. You could be enriched and strengthened, but you must be willing. God waits. Will you respond to His love for you? He died for you. What are you willing to give up for Him? Perhaps a few useless arguements? In exchange for your tantrums against His Church and its people, you could have rest for your soul and peace. It really is up to you. Why don’t you let Jesus SAVE you?

Peace,

Gail