Another Purgatory Question!

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On what basis do you think we will be found worthy?
On the basis of what the bible tells us…

**Revelation 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. 1**3 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.

**Romans 2:**5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

**Matthew 25:**44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

It kind of sounds like works salvation, but it isn’t. It is the judgement we all will face. No one earns salvation through works, this is also very clear.

Subrosa
 
How is it possible that once someone is in the grip of Christ that He would fail to save them?
Christ doesn’t have a “grip” on anyone. He gently allows us to sit in His hand. We can move about freely in His hand. If Jesus had a “grip” on us we would not be able to move about freely (hence “free will”). We are free to do what is right to give Glory to God. We can jump or fall out of His hand any time we want. But thank goodness for God’s grace. Because if we attempt to “jump out of” the hand of Jesus, God gives us a “little gentle nudge” called grace so that we can think twice before we leave the hand of Jesus. Depending on our disposition or our stubborness that “gentle nudge” can sometimes feel like a hard knock on the head. So if you cooperate with God’s grace it will only feel as a “gentle nudge.” 🙂
 
I’ve read books by “Anne the Lay Apostle,” which makes Purgatory sound like a piece of cake. But then recently I’ve been reading a book by Bob and Penny Lord which describes what many of the saints have said about Purgatory - it doesn’t sound at all like what Anne says. They make it sound pretty scarey - definitely not a good place for a vacation!

So which way is it? Why is there such a difference between these accounts? Does Purgatory become more merciful depending on the times? Are Anne’s visions not reliable?

Thanks!
Read the Fire of Love by St. Catherine of Genoa: cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a013.html . Those are revelations about purgatory from Our Lord to St. Catherine. They helped me a lot!

Pax Christi tecum.
 
Wow, thanks so much for that link. What a great work. I will save it and read all of it after I print it out. Thank you so much. 👍
You’re welcome. It’s a wonderful work on purgatory. May Our Lord bless you and help you with it!

Pax Christi tecum.
 
Originally Posted by strugglingalong
Read the Fire of Love by St. Catherine of Genoa: cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a013.html . Those are revelations about purgatory from Our Lord to St. Catherine. They helped me a lot!

Pax Christi tecum.

AlegreFe
Wow, thanks so much for that link. What a great work. I will save it and read all of it after I print it out. Thank you so much. 👍
How do you know what St. Catherine wrote is the truth about purgatory?
 
How do you know what St. Catherine wrote is the truth about purgatory?
It is the nature of mystical revelation that it is very individualistic. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. What a person sees/experiences is very specific to themselves, and is influenced by their life experiences and understanding of things.

This is why it is so important to apply objective standards to such experiences. We use those taught by the Apostles, and they are not different than understanding the revelation in scripture.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

A revelation from God is not a matter of one’s own interpretation, and does not come by human will, but when the HS moves a person to see as God sees. Such revelations are compared to the scripture, and to the Apostolic Teaching to test their authenticity. The Church has extensively examined many of these revelations, and in the case of Catherine, everything. When the Church declares that nothing in them contradicts the public revelation, then they are approved for the faithful. It is the Church that is charged with the responsibility to test everything, and hold fast to that which is true. Once the Church has done this, we can be confident that nothing in the private revelation contradicts the public revelation that we have already received.
 
How do you know what St. Catherine wrote is the truth about purgatory?
I can’t add to Guanophore’s excellent response, but I’d like to comment on one of the unfortunate side-effects of Protestantism: skepticism.

I’ve told my Protestant family about the miracles of the sun at Fatima - which were witnessed by at least 70,000 people. Some of my family refuse to believe that it really happened. Others attribute all Marian apparitions to Satan - which must really be a grave offense to God.

They’ve seen documentaries about the Shroud of Turin, but believe it to be an elaborate hoax from sometime in the middle ages. On and on it goes - they just won’t believe that anything supernatural can happen today. Forget the Eucharistic miracles. Forget the incorruptible saints. Forget Padre Pio and the miracles done by God through him.

Yes, we have to be careful what we believe - and can’t just fling our undying belief to every grilled cheese sandwich that comes along, but the overwhelming amount of skepticism is interesting, considering that Jesus Himself told us that such things would happen - and that people would have such visions and work such wonders. Do we believe what Jesus literally said, or don’t we?

God has been freeing me from my overly-skeptical past, and I’m amazed at how much fuller - and happier my life is. My Protestant faith was certainly better than nothing, but my new Catholic faith totally blows me away!
 
The “anti-Biblicalness” of the OSAS idea was what led me OUT of fundamental Protestantism and into the Catholic Church in 2007.

Please take a look at the following attachment and see why OSAS most definitely is NOT scriptural. When I was Baptist, I begged my pastors to explain these verses, and they just can’t.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=161983
Since there so much in the file you put together why don’t you take one or 2 and we can discuss.
 
It is the nature of mystical revelation that it is very individualistic. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. What a person sees/experiences is very specific to themselves, and is influenced by their life experiences and understanding of things.

This is why it is so important to apply objective standards to such experiences. We use those taught by the Apostles, and they are not different than understanding the revelation in scripture.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

A revelation from God is not a matter of one’s own interpretation, and does not come by human will, but when the HS moves a person to see as God sees. Such revelations are compared to the scripture, and to the Apostolic Teaching to test their authenticity. The Church has extensively examined many of these revelations, and in the case of Catherine, everything. When the Church declares that nothing in them contradicts the public revelation, then they are approved for the faithful. It is the Church that is charged with the responsibility to test everything, and hold fast to that which is true. Once the Church has done this, we can be confident that nothing in the private revelation contradicts the public revelation that we have already received.
What i gather from what you are saying is that there is much more to what the church knows about the nature and conditions of purgatory. For example in CHAPTER XVI it says the following:

“This Soul shews again how the sufferings of the souls in Purgatory are no hindrance at all to their peace and their joy.
I see the souls suffer the pains of Purgatory having before their eyes two works of God.
First, they see themselves suffering pain willingly, and as they consider their own deserts and acknowledge how they have grieved God, it seems to them that He has shewn them great mercy, for if His goodness had not tempered justice with mercy, making satisfaction with the precious blood of Jesus Christ, one sin would deserve a thousand perpetual hells. And therefore the souls suffer pain willingly, and would not lighten it by one pang, knowing that they most fully deserve it and that it has been well ordained, and they no more complain of God, as far as their will goes, than if they were in eternal life.
The second work they see is the happiness they feel as they contemplate God’s ordinance and the love and mercy with which He works on the soul.
In one instant God imprints these two sights on their minds, and because they are in grace they are aware of these sights and understand them as they are, in the measure of their capacity. Thus a great happiness is granted them which never fails; rather it grows as they draw nearer God. These souls see these sights neither in nor of themselves but in God, on whom they are far more intent than on the pains they suffer, and of whom they make far greater account, beyond all comparison, than of their pains. For every glimpse which can be had of God exceeds any pain or joy a man can feel. Albeit, however, it exceeds the pain and joy of these souls, it lessens them by not a tittle.”

A couple of things that are now known about purgatory are:
1- they see themselves suffering pain willingly
2- there is happiness there.

It seems to me that much could be learned about the nature and conditions of purgatory from this alone.

How does the promises of the Brown Scapular impact this?
 
A couple of things that are now known about purgatory are:
1- they see themselves suffering pain willingly
2- there is happiness there.

It seems to me that much could be learned about the nature and conditions of purgatory from this alone.

How does the promises of the Brown Scapular impact this?
Purgatory was revealed quite differently at Fatima. What is “known” by Catherine is for herself. There is nothing in that private revelation that contradicts the public revelation that came through Christ. However, there are others who have had private revelations that show something quite differnent. The children of Fatima saw great suffering in purgatory.

What is curious to me is, why would you pretend to want to learn about the nature and conditions of purgatory? You have already stated that they are the false docrines of men, created on the basis of “speculations”. You have also indicated your understanding of the devotion of the Brown Scapular as a supersition. It seems to me that you are trolling, since you have already stated that these concepts are speculations and superstitions based on false teachings. What do you hope to accomplish here?
 
guanophore;4059202]Purgatory was revealed quite differently at Fatima. What is “known” by Catherine is for herself. There is nothing in that private revelation that contradicts the public revelation that came through Christ. However, there are others who have had private revelations that show something quite differnent. The children of Fatima saw great suffering in purgatory.
Do you know where i can find this? i checked the site and didn’t see anything about this…
 
Do you know where i can find this? i checked the site and didn’t see anything about this…
Yes, but I don’t really think you should concern yourself about Purgatory. I think it would be much more useful for you to focus on the elementary doctrines so that you can lay a better foundation.
 
Dear Just asking - The children of Fatima did not see a vision of Purgatory - they actually saw the Hell of the damned! It was this vision that terrified them and caused them to pray all the more earnestly for poor sinners. Many of us repeat their prayer when we pray a Rosary…“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need…” There is no end to Hell nor is there a “second chance” as is with Purgatory. Justice is served by Hell - Mercy is served by Purgatory. Choice is the key.

I don’t know which site you visited to seek information about Fatima. I’m sad to say there are some that aren’t worth the visit as they distort and mis-use Fatima for ends not worthy of honor. Here are two sites I think are good - crystalinks.com/fatima.html and of course EWTN’s ewtn.com/Fatima/

I hope you view them with an open mind and more importantly and open heart. Your Mother waits as does God…Listen to Him!

Peace,

Gail
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you know where i can find this? i checked the site and didn’t see anything about this…

guanophore
Yes, but I don’t really think you should concern yourself about Purgatory. I think it would be much more useful for you to focus on the elementary doctrines so that you can lay a better foundation.
So you really don’t know where i can find this? I thought as much.
 
I’ve read books by “Anne the Lay Apostle,” which makes Purgatory sound like a piece of cake. But then recently I’ve been reading a book by Bob and Penny Lord which describes what many of the saints have said about Purgatory - it doesn’t sound at all like what Anne says. They make it sound pretty scarey - definitely not a good place for a vacation!

So which way is it? Why is there such a difference between these accounts? Does Purgatory become more merciful depending on the times? Are Anne’s visions not reliable?

Thanks!
Wwe grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.
 
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