Another Query Regarding Revelation :)

[Mintaka]

Well, there always has been a minority view that “Babylon” is Jerusalem, because people of all languages and nations were supposed to gather there (a la Isaiah), and because Jews and “Godfearers” of all nations and languages did gather there at Passover and other big festivals (as we see in Acts).

However, in antiquity (and despite other cities being built on similar numbers of hills), any mention of seven hills did mean the city of Rome, and hence the Roman Empire. The seven hills within Rome’s pagan sacred boundary (the pomerium) were: the Aventine, Caelian, Esquiline, Quirinal, Viminal, Capitoline, and Palatine Hills.

“Foreign gods” were forbidden to be worshipped within the pomerium, so pretty much all Jews and Christians lived in the neighborhoods of Trastevere (“across the Tiber” from Rome proper), Subura (“under the city”, ie further downslope from the city proper), and other nearby neighborhoods they could creep into, eventually including Vatican Hill (also across the Tiber from the city proper, which was why Nero chose it for his gardens, circus, and garden villa).

In the Bible, since Israel and the Church are both depicted as God’s Bride, “the bride of His youth,” idolatrous practices are often poetically described as sleeping around, adultery, or harlotry - especially since Mideastern paganism often included “sacred prostitution” and other sexual acts. But “harlotry” images often also include Israel dabbling in alliances with foreign powers, like the Assyrians or Egyptians, instead of trusting the Lord. (And since this often meant Israel’s kings marrying foreign women who brought along pagan practices – foreign women like Jezabel, for instance – this also circles around.)

Early Christian interpretations of Revelation are dangerously clear that the Beast is the Roman Empire, and that the Whore was Christians or Jews who cooperated with the pagan, worldly state and their pagan neighbors in ways contrary to God’s law. (Augustine spends a lot of time trying to talk about this in a way that won’t get everybody arrested for treason against the Emperor.) There’s a lot of connection to the four Beasts in the Book of Daniel, of which the last Beast is usually considered to be the Roman Empire.

Revelation is deeply concerned with matters like eating food sacrificed to idols, and pagan “sacred” sexual practices. Here’s what Jesus says to the folks at Pergamum, and their “angel,” which is to say, their bishop (Rev. 2:14-15):

“But I have a few things against you. Because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel: to eat, and to commit fornication. So do you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaites.”

If you read the story of Balaam and Balak at Beth-Peor, you’ll know that they did exactly hold a pagan sexual festival that included the eating of meat sacrificed to Baal. The Nicolaites were a heretical early Christian group that believed in sleeping around with each others’ wives and husbands, along with other immoral things.

Here’s what Jesus said to the folks at Thyatira and their bishop (Rev. 2:20-23):

"But I have a few things against you, because you suffer the woman Jezabel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat of things sacrificed to idols.

And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication. Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds."

This “Jezabel,” whether that was her name or an insult, is generally seen as being an actual human woman who was doing bad things, and who was used as a sort of model for the symbolic figure of the Whore of Babylon. So most people look to her as an lens for what the Whore of Babylon was doing later on.

This post is getting long, so I’ll make another post.

 

[Syrtis16]

Thank you, that was interesting and enlightening. So are you saying that revelation should NOT be read as a prophesy; intended to speak of the end times, featuring references and finger pointing at the kinds of events which are said to occur before the arrival of our Lord?
Revelation was intended for early Christian’s as an insight into the Lords way and Kingdom?

 

[Mintaka]

The cities of Rome and Jerusalem are smashed together in the Whore passages in one fairly important way. Jerusalem was notorious for “killing the prophets,” as Jesus said, but Rome’s pagan government and people were equally notorious for killing Christian and Jewish martyrs.

However, again the early Christian commentaries and sermons are pretty clear about thinking that the Whore was the city/goddess Roma, or the Roman people, and that the Beast was the Roman Empire.

Victorinus of Poetovium commented upon “drunk from the blood of the saints” –

“For all the saints have suffered martyrdom because of a decree of the Senate of this city, and although tolerance is proclaimed, it is she who has given to all nations every law against the preaching of the faith.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 17:2.)

Oecumenios: “John calls [pagan] Rome a harlot because she had fornicated, ie, apostatized from God… By “many waters” he refers to the nations that Rome rules and governs… For indeed, also the rest of those over whom she was ruling apostatized from God along with her; sometimes she was compelling the rest and sometimes leading the way.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 17:1-5.)

However, the Whore is also identified with individuals who do evil things and give themselves over to them, as a sort of evil “Body of the Devil” or “Body of the Lost,” as in Primasius:

“Speaking of the Body of all the lost, which He often calls by various yet suitable names, the Holy Spirit… depicts this Body which is perishing with a suitable description, calling it a “harlot.” For being forsaken by the Creator, she has given herself over to prostitution, allowing herself to be ravished by demons.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 17:1)

Andrew of Caesarea and Beatus of Liebana lived long after Rome had stopped being a big worldly power as a city (Constantinople was now the seat of power), so they both saw the Whore as evil Christians, and the Beast as all worldly kingdoms that do evil.

Andrew: “Some consider this harlot to be old Rome, since she sits on seven hills, and the seven heads of the Beast that carries the harlot to be the more ungodly kings from Domitian to Diocletian, who persecuted the Church. However, we… think that she is either the earthly kingdom generally, depicted as in one body, or that city which is ruled until the arrival of the Antichrist. For old Rome lost the power of dominion long ago, and we do not suppose that the ancient status will return to it.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 17:1-3.)

Beatus: “The Woman upon the Beast is corruption, and works of wickedness and pleasures, and fornication, and uncleanness, and avarice, (cf. Eph. 5:3) and jealous zeal, detraction, envy, vainglory, pride, and stuffing the belly. One who is gladdened by the prosperity of the world; who does not have charity; who does not do good to the poor; who afflicts the servants of God with injuries and insults; who does not bestow what is her own but seizes what is already another’s; who does not hurry to church; who speaks false testimony; who returns evil for evil; who rejoices in the death of enemies. [Also] those who [do] auguries, and are accustomed to write down incantations and the characters which the rustics call “Solomon’s seal”* or other characters of this kind, and to hang them from their necks;** and to collect herbs with the Creed or the Lord’s Prayer or with incantations; and foolish women [who are accustomed] to observe spiderwebs or feet [as auguries], and men to observe the moon or the day for sowing, as well as for the domestication of animals, for children to study, for arbors or vines to be planted, for doing other work, for slaughtering animals, for moving things from place to place, or for proceeding on a journey; or on the second day of the week [Tuesday], they look out so as not to throw out anything from their house, neither fire nor a morsel of food. All these things, and things like them, were invented by the devil and instituted by pagan humans.”

So yeah, there’s a fair amount of interpretative room here.

The Whore is also associated with what Isaiah says about Babylon as a female figure, and with what Ezekiel says about “Sor” or Tyre as a female figure.

 

[mikekle]

Really? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Jesus had already prophecied the destruction of the second temple, so would the Holy Spirit bestow upon John a further image of an event that had not only already taken place, but was already referred to by the Lord? Revelation seems like an overkill of something unneeded in the first place, if that is the case.

‘The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages’. That doesn’t sound like Jerusalem to me.

That sounds like the US imo.

Thats another strange thing in regards to the whore, SOOOOO much of it describes the US, there was a thread on this a long time ago and a very long list of verses (80+) that were basically describing a modern US, none of the descriptions would fit another modern day nation, but that begs the question if there will another newer nation (besides the US) when the end times come? That is probably a thread in itself though!

 

[Syrtis16]

Therefore, can we say Revelation IS prophesy, is NOT prophesy, or a mixture of both prophesy and contemporary commentary?
I’m confused

 

[Mintaka]

The prophets of Israel all spoke to their contemporaries about contemporary events, but they also spoke about future events and about things that would be relevant to all generations.

Look, what do prophets do?

They tell people what God told them, the word of God. That’s why there’s all that “Thus says the LORD” stuff in the prophetic books.

What does the Bible say about the word of God?

Hebrews 4: 12-13 –

“The Word of God is living and active; sharper than any two-edged sword and reaching into the division between soul and spirit, and joints and marrow; able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

2 Timothy 3:16 –

“All Scripture is inspired by God, and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be prepared, fully equipped for every good work.”

The word of God interacts with us and makes us think. There isn’t any book of the Bible that doesn’t speak to us today, and to every generation, as well as to those for whom those books were originally written. God has put His power into His words.

The Book of Revelation is no different. It’s also meant for every person in every age, and is useful for many different purposes. If it weren’t, it wouldn’t be considered Scripture, now would it?

 

[Syrtis16]

Apologies, I was referring to whether Revelation can justifiably be regarded as an outline of the end times; a prediction and forewarning of what the earth will be like before the second coming. For example do we believe an antichrist will appear before our Lords return? Does Revelation warn us about an upcoming one-world government, that will reek havoc and pain before our Lords arrival?

 

[Gorgias]

Therefore, can we say Revelation IS prophesy, is NOT prophesy, or a mixture of both prophesy and contemporary commentary?
I’m confused

The genre of the Book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, not prophecy. The two genres have a good bit of differences between them…

 

[Syrtis16]

"Apocalyptic - describing or prophesying the complete destruction of the world.
“the apocalyptic visions of ecologists”

I’m still confused

 

[guanophore]

Really? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Jesus had already prophecied the destruction of the second temple, so would the Holy Spirit bestow upon John a further image of an event that had not only already taken place, but was already referred to by the Lord? Revelation seems like an overkill of something unneeded in the first place, if that is the case.

Who are we to decide how much Revelation is “overkill”?

The destruction of the temple fits in with the rest of the prophesy - it is not separate from it.

‘The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages’. That doesn’t sound like Jerusalem to me.

Does it not?

6And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?…"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9"Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,……

Jesus was crucified amidst this multitude of nations and languages.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you, that was interesting and enlightening. So are you saying that revelation should NOT be read as a prophesy; intended to speak of the end times, featuring references and finger pointing at the kinds of events which are said to occur before the arrival of our Lord?
Revelation was intended for early Christian’s as an insight into the Lords way and Kingdom?

Apocalyptic/prophetic literature always has at least two levels, one aimed to the present day, and another with regard to events that may not have happened yet.

I certainly think that no Scripture should be read with “finger pointing”.

Yes Revelation was intended for early Christian’s as an insight into the Lords way and Kingdom. Yes, it is prophetic literature that may contain images of events that have not yet occurred.

 

[Mintaka]

Sorry I haven’t been following this thread every day!

Syrtis16 was asking earlier:

“Apologies, I was referring to whether Revelation can justifiably be regarded as an outline of the end times; a prediction and forewarning of what the earth will be like before the second coming.”

Yes, among other applications. (Although “the end times” began as soon as Jesus was born, died, rose, and ascended into Heaven.)

“For example do we believe an antichrist will appear before our Lords return?”

Yes, that has generally been the Church’s teaching. However, as John points out in his letter, there are tons of people around who are anti-Christ and act as antichrists. So there’s not much point worrying about which one is the last one.

“Does Revelation warn us about an upcoming one-world government, that will reek havoc and pain before our Lords arrival?”

Hard to say. There’s really not much in Revelation that would have to be done by a single government. It tends to portray people willingly submitting themselves to a sort of Antichrist pagan religion as much as to an Antichrist government, or even to an Antichrist fandom that is all about the Beast being awesome and cool. Why worry about a one-world government when you could worry about the Antichrist and the False Prophet having a viral video or a boy band?

(Okay, that is a scary thought!)

Anyway, my point is that people have a bad tendency to get really excited about bad people who are charismatic, and that we always have to watch out for that. One of these days, it’ll be the last time, and that’ll be the end of things. But there have been plenty of times when it wasn’t the last time. Hitler and Stalin and Mao all killed millions of people, but they weren’t the Antichrist. They were just little antichrists.

Here’s John’s useful tips. He addresses his hearers as “Little children.”

2 John 1:7 – “For many seducers have gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a seducer and an antichrist.”

1 John 2:17-18 – “…the world passes away… but he that does the will of God abides for ever. Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist comes; even now there are many Antichrists, whereby we know that it is the last hour.”

1 John 2:22 – “Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist - he who denies the Father and the Son.”

1 John 4:2-4 – "Every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God. And every spirit which does not confess it is not of God; and this is the spirit of the Antichrist, whom you’ve heard is coming and who is now in the world.

Little children, you are of God and have overcome him, because He Who is within you is greater than he who is in the world."

You see? The Antichrist was always running around, spiritually, and there are lots of antichrists running around, spiritually and in real life. It’s a common, continuing danger for all times, until the end of the world. But that means it’s just another of those things we deal with, like getting persecuted for His Name’s sake.

So you should always be prepared and keeping a good watch, but you shouldn’t worry about it more than you worry about other things that the Lord told us to do.