Another Question about Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter clarkgamble1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

clarkgamble1

Guest
There are probably less than a thousand words in the bible about Mary. Yet there are thousands of volumes written about her, many many titles given to her, and countless, accepted as true, facts and beliefs adopted by the Church relating to her. Where did all this information come from? It seems that the Church has invented or accepted an awful lot of beliefs about her that doesn’t have any biblical backing. I’m leery about accepting the words of visionaries that claim to have had her appear to them.
 
Are you Catholic, or approaching this from another religions point of view
 
Last edited:
When the documents were written, Mary was most likely alive and well. It is the traditional belief that St Luke “interviewed” her when writing his gospel account.

The early Church was very much persecuted, they met in secret. Likely the most “hunted” were the Apostles and Mary. In order to protect this woman whom they all loved as a mother, they did not gab about her in their letters.
 
clarkgamble1 said:
There are probably less than a thousand words in the bible about Mary.
Click to expand...
yet it is written from Genesis to Revelation about her by God. thousands but hidden. Sirach 3:18 The greater you are, the more you must humble yourself;so you will find favor in the sight of the Lord 19, Many are lofty and renowned, but to the humble he reveals his secrets.
clarkgamble1 said:
Yet there are thousands of volumes written about her, many many titles given to her, and countless, accepted as true, facts and beliefs adopted by the Church relating to her. Where did all this information come from?
Click to expand...
your saying similar to Matthew 13:54 He came to his hometown and began to teach the people[a] in their synagogue, so that they were astounded and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these deeds of power?

where else from God Himself as in James 1:17 Every generous act of giving, with every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she (Mary)shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. Hope you come to realize the Truth.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married.”

Revelation 12:1-2 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman (Mother Mary) clothed with the sun (Glory Wisdom 7:26 For she (Mother Mary) is a reflection of eternal light=Jesus

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. remember its the very word of the heavenly Father ,Angeles are only messengers

Luke 1:45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be[a] a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.Luke 1:37-38” For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 Then Mary said, “Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

Psalms 118:23 This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.24 This is the day that the Lord has made;let us rejoice and be glad in it.

Where did you get your false claims and assumptions from? probably from false Prophets/sites which are not true.
 
Last edited:
Greetings,

As St. Augustine observed, the “New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.” There is much to be said of the Virgin Mary, Theotokos in Scripture. She is the new Eve and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Remember, Holy Scripture came about from Holy Tradition. Both go hand in hand.

ZP
 
Catholics don’t rely on Scripture alone. The information about the Blessed Mother is contained in another source of Divine Revelation called Tradition. We accept Scripture and Tradition with equal sentiments of devotion and respect.
 
As Catholics alot of our Faith is based on Tradition. A lot of the facts about the BVM are Tradition. When the Catholic Church accepts a Tradition as true we are to follow it.
 
Seems like Tradition is as important as Scripture in regard to Mary. I need to investigate Tradition. My present feelings is that a tradition is akin to a habit, something done or believed not with any real reason except that’s the way it has always been. My grandmother taught me to throw salt over my shoulder to ward off evil. Why? Because her grandmother told her to do it because it was a family tradition always done. Not a very good reason.
 
Your ideas about Tradition are not Catholic. In the Catholic sense, Tradition forms part of the Sacred Deposit of Faith. Tradition contains the oral teachings of Jesus and everything that was handed down by the Apostles. Tradition and Scripture are equal in authority.
 
The question at hand involves an understanding of the nature of the Church and divine revelation. If you are interested, I would point you to the document ‘Lumen Gentium’ from the Second Vatican Council. This text explains the nature of the Church and even devotes the last chapter to Mary’s place in it.

The Church’s teachings on Mary are also deeply rooted in scripture through the various types found in the Old Testament. When the New Testament is read with an eye to the content and whole of scripture, Mary’s role becomes very clear. The short answer is the Deposit of Faith which consists of Scripture and Tradition; here Tradition should be understood as distinct from ‘tradition’ in the common sense of the word.
 
your have misunderstood the word traditions as habits,where as,Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm
ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

74 God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”:29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:

God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
  • orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
  • in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34
. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
 
Last edited:
Pope Benedict XVI gave a beautiful catechesis on Catholic Tradition in late April, 2006. He says that we miss the profound meaning of Catholic Tradition if we see it only as the handing on of a static Revelation.

More than that, it is the active, continuous work of the Holy Spirit in our particular time: it makes real and tangible “the active presence of the Lord Jesus in his people, realized by the Holy Spirit”.

Seeing Catholic Tradition as the active presence of Christ through the work of the Spirit is precisely what accomplishes the “transmission of the goods of salvation” to us:

Thanks to Tradition, guaranteed by the ministry of the apostles and their successors, the water of life that flowed from the side of Christ and his saving blood comes to the women and men of all times. In this way, Tradition is the permanent presence of the Savior who comes to meet, redeem and sanctify us in the Spirit through the ministry of his Church for the glory of the Father.
This reality of the divine action of the Holy Spirit within the Church is essential to understanding Catholic Tradition. It is what makes Sacred Tradition something far different than mere human traditions.

Through that same action of the Spirit, Catholic Tradition incorporates us into the Communion of the Saints. It ensures the connection “between the experience of the apostolic faith, lived in the original community of the disciples, and the present experience of Christ in his Church.”

The Pope concludes:

Tradition is the living river that unites us to the origins, the living river in which the origins are always present, the great river that leads us to the port of eternity. In this living river, the word of the Lord…: “And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age”, is fulfilled again (Matthew 28:20).
Through Catholic Tradition, the Holy Spirit works to bring the grace and truth of Christ into our own lives.

It’s real. And it’s living right now in the Catholic Church!

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”
(John 1:14)

1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 3:66 Now we command you, beloved,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they[c] received from us.
 
Last edited:
clarkgamble1 said:
Seems like Tradition is as important as Scripture in regard to Mary. I need to investigate Tradition. My present feelings is that a tradition is akin to a habit, something done or believed not with any real reason except that’s the way it has always been. My grandmother taught me to throw salt over my shoulder to ward off evil. Why? Because her grandmother told her to do it because it was a family tradition always done. Not a very good reason.
Click to expand...
Hey Clark.

“Tradition” is a little bigger than “habit” - particularly in the Catholic Church.

There are better sources to convey the idea more clearly, but the essential gist is that Christianity is not a strictly bible-based religion because it predates the bible.

As I’ve written many times, Christ started the Church roughly 30AD. The first books of the NT weren’t even begun to be written until roughly 50AD and weren’t finished being written until roughly 90AD. And it took us until roughly 350AD to even decide which books were and weren’t part of the expanded Christian bible. AND THEN people weren’t commonly literate enough to read the thing until almost within your lifetime (if your picture depicts you 🙂 ).

So the bible is yet another part of the Catholic Tradition that unambiguously precedes it. Therefore, the assumption that it is the only source for Christian teaching is a faulty one.
 
Last edited:
Don’t accept the statements of visionaries then, you are not obligated to and it isn’t necessary for a Marian belief.

The Bible tells us she was a virgin when an angel appeared to her and she accept God’s will and conceived the Messiah. An angel told Joseph to marry her and care for them. She was a devout Jewish woman and mother who quietly followed her son clear through to his passion and death where her care was entrusted to John… She saw him Resurrected and was with the apostles at Pentecost.

What does the church ask that we believe beyond this. 1) that she is the mother of God. This is more an assertion of Christ’s complete humanity and complete divinity than it is about Mary. Mary is the mother of one whole person not half of Jesus.
  1. that she was assumed into Heaven. Here is Tradition. John didn’t write anything about Mary’s death but then again in a faith where people have been visiting tombs since the very beginning there just isn’t any evidence of Mary having a grave. That is huge! Can you imagine what we would have built there if it existed or even thought it existed?
  2. the immaculate conception. This is largely logic based. Would God be conceived in a woman and take the flesh of a woman subject to sin or would he preserve her from it so she could appreciate and cope with such intimate relationship with God.
  3. that she was ever Virgin. Tradition here but I think it is totally reasonable that when your first child is God incarnate in your virgin body you just don’t do marriage and family like normal.
 
I too have some of these concerns and have myself become skeptical with some of the things associated with the Blessed Mother.

One particular thing I’ve read with The Assumption is that “After her burial the apostles go to the tomb and find only fragrant lilies.” Where is the evidence for this?

In fact the obsession of associating lilies, roses and flowers in general is just too much at times.
 
Last edited:
michaelArc said:
One particular thing I’ve read with The Assumption is that “After her burial the apostles go to the tomb and find only fragrant lilies.” Where is the evidence for this?
Click to expand...
That is simply a romantic conjecture. We know nothing about what actually transpired, in fact, we do not know if Mary died and was then assumed or if assumption occurred prior to her death.
 
clarkgamble1 said:
Seems like Tradition is as important as Scripture in regard to Mary. I need to investigate Tradition. My present feelings is that a tradition is akin to a habit, something done or believed not with any real reason except that’s the way it has always been. My grandmother taught me to throw salt over my shoulder to ward off evil. Why? Because her grandmother told her to do it because it was a family tradition always done. Not a very good reason.
Click to expand...
No. This is not it at all. If you read the Church fathers you will find deep and rich reflections on God and the scriptures. The Church teaches nothing without developing a real true and deep understanding of the issue.
 
clarkgamble1 said:
Seems like Tradition is as important as Scripture in regard to Mary.
Click to expand...
It would be more accurate to say that Sacred Tradition is considered equally the Word of God along with Scripture. The NT contains what was first oral teaching from the Apostles.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

What the CC has done that those who espoused Sola Scriptura have not is to obey the Apostolic commandment to hold to the Sacred Tradition that was handed down to us from the Apostles.
clarkgamble1 said:
My present feelings is that a tradition is akin to a habit, something done or believed not with any real reason except that’s the way it has always been.
Click to expand...
This is a good definition of human tradition, or customs. This is not the same as the Word of God entrusted to the Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top