Another question about the book of Enoch

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my husband has been very curious about the book of Enoch. He bought it yesterday and started to read it. suddenly he pipes up with, “this has to be part of scripture since it’s quoted in scripture”. (the book of Jude I believe) I had no idea how to respond to that, since my arguement for using the Catholic bible is that Jesus quoted from the septuigent and Jesus wouldn’t quote from anything that wasn’t scripture. He’s not catholic, so nothing about the magisterium will help.

I was wondering, is there anywhere else in the bible where someone is quoting a non biblical text?

there is a scripture in Rev (I think that’s where it is) that says something like, “this book is complete, do not add to or take from it.” but my husband says that the book of Enoch was considered part of the bible when John wrote that. Are there any other texts that were debated over that some people considered scripture until the council (don’t remember which one) put the bible together in the 4th century?

any help would be greatly appriciated. I’m glad I’m catholic and don’t have to sit around and wonder if this or that is part of the bible. I Hope this little search will some how lead my husband to the church.
 
my husband has been very curious about the book of Enoch. He bought it yesterday and started to read it. suddenly he pipes up with, “this has to be part of scripture since it’s quoted in scripture”. (the book of Jude I believe) I had no idea how to respond to that, since my arguement for using the Catholic bible is that Jesus quoted from the septuigent and Jesus wouldn’t quote from anything that wasn’t scripture. He’s not catholic, so nothing about the magisterium will help.
The argument that just because a portion of something is quoted in the Bible means the whole work is canonical does not follow. It isn’t a *logical *necessity, and nothing within Scripture itself dictates this principle. Even if he doesn’t recognize the Magisterium, to accept the Scriptures as inspired at all, he must rely on an authority outside himself. Call it the witness of history, if he wishes, but no one has seriously proposed that Enoch be included in the canon on this basis, let alone any other non-biblical books that may be alluded to therein.
I was wondering, is there anywhere else in the bible where someone is quoting a non biblical text?
2 Peter 2:22, for one, does not appear in Scripture. Neither are found the “book of the acts of Solomon” (referred to in 1 Kings 11:41) and the “book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel” (referred to in 1 Kings 14:19). Also, St. Paul quotes the Greek poets Epimenides (500BC) and Aratus (300 BC) in Acts 18:28, and also in Titus 1:12. Should we also include the work of thse writers in the Bible?🙂
Are there any other texts that were debated over that some people considered scripture until the council (don’t remember which one) put the bible together in the 4th century?
There were several. Go to this site (which I am providing for reference, but not endorsing) for more information:

wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/gospels.htm

Good luck with your husband on this.
 
hey,
thanks a lot! that helps 🙂 I’ll go look up all those scriptures.
 
there is a scripture in Rev (I think that’s where it is) that says something like, “this book is complete, do not add to or take from it.” but my husband says that the book of Enoch was considered part of the bible when John wrote that.
Rev. 22:18-19 I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

The “book” John is referring to is the one he is writing. It does not refer to the Bible. There was no official bible at the time. Even the Old Testament had not yet been officially defined by the Jews at that time. Generally held that it was at the Jewish Council at Jamnia in 90 AD that they determined what would constitute their canon of Scripture.

Nita
 
OOps! That should have been Acts 18:28 up in Post #2, not 16:28. :o
 
my husband has been very curious about the book of Enoch. He bought it yesterday and started to read it. suddenly he pipes up with, “this has to be part of scripture since it’s quoted in scripture”. (the book of Jude I believe) I had no idea how to respond to that, since my arguement for using the Catholic bible is that Jesus quoted from the septuigent and Jesus wouldn’t quote from anything that wasn’t scripture. He’s not catholic, so nothing about the magisterium will help.

I was wondering, is there anywhere else in the bible where someone is quoting a non biblical text?

there is a scripture in Rev (I think that’s where it is) that says something like, “this book is complete, do not add to or take from it.” but my husband says that the book of Enoch was considered part of the bible when John wrote that. Are there any other texts that were debated over that some people considered scripture until the council (don’t remember which one) put the bible together in the 4th century?

any help would be greatly appriciated. I’m glad I’m catholic and don’t have to sit around and wonder if this or that is part of the bible. I Hope this little search will some how lead my husband to the church.
Since the book has been quoted by Jude, I can’t see it being erronious; having said this, the book is, however, hard to understand, and several different version exists.One version holds the quotation of Enoch found in Jude while another version speaks of Paradise as being located in the third Heaven, spoken of by St Paul.
1And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness.
2And I saw all the sweet-flowering trees and beheld their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all the foods borne by them bubbling with fragrant exhalation.
3And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise; and this tree is of ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing thing; and on all sides it is in form gold-looking and vermilion and fire-like and covers all, and it has produce from all fruits.
But there are some verses you could show to your husband, being not catholic, which might make him become interested in catholic teachings.
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them
Notice that hadies (Sheol) is described as having “four” seperate places for the spirits of men.
8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: ‘Why is one separated from the other?’ 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.
The place for the righteous, is what scriptures call Abraham’s bosom, and catholics call Limbo.
And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime.
This place might be where Jesus preached when He descended into hell.
Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever.
This is the place where the spirits of those who will be cast into the eternal fire (gehenna) at Jugement Day are being held.
And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence
…a bit hard to understand; seems to be spirits who will remain forever in such a state, of neither punishment nor reward.

Andre
 
I would like to change some of my views (interpretation) concerning the verses below.
And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime.
This I would understand as being a place where the spirits have not yet been judged, and so have the capacity to “loose themselves from sin” by being purge in the fire mentioned in St-Paul and Jesus
Mark 9:50
9:45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell.
9:47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell,
9:48 where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.
9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.
The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians
each man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and 2 the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is.
Also such spirits could be loosed from sins with the help of prayers.
2 Maccabees Chapter 12
12:46. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
…Now, as for the last place spoken of by Enoch
And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence
This would be where, I believe, Jesus went to preach.
“He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh, but he was raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built…For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that, although they have already been judged in the flesh like men, they might have life in the Spirit like God.” (1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6)
Andre
 
can you tell me what chapters these quotes are from? you only listed teh verses, but not the chapters. thanks
 
=SueKrum;1633453]can you tell me what chapters these quotes are from? you only listed teh verses, but not the chapters. thanks
The first quote was …

** 1And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness.

2And I saw all the sweet-flowering trees and beheld their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all the foods borne by them bubbling with fragrant exhalation.

3And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise; and this tree is of ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing thing; and on all sides it is in form gold-looking and vermilion and fire-like and covers all, and it has produce from all fruits. **

The above verses come from the book called “The secrets of Enoch” and is probably not the book your husband has on hand. His book is probably entitled simply “The book of Enoch”.Nevertheless, the above is the beginning of chapter 8.

…as for the others…
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them
The above, along with the description of the four separate places in Hadies, are from the “Book of Enoch”, chapter 22

Andre
 
There’s also a couple of things that your husband might find interesting, Sue. First, if Enoch is translated into Heaven, then what is the problem in accepting the Assumtion of Mary?In the Old Testament, we have Enoch, Elijah, and Moses who are believed to have been taken bodily into Heaven. Moses’ body was fought over by the Archangel Micheal and Satan. This comes from another apocryphal book called “The assumption of Moses”.
In Catholic teachings, there is the belief that two people went into Heaven with their bodies…Jesus and Mary, as well as a possible third, John, the apostle.
In my opinion, there seems to be a corrolation between such people. In Genesis 5:24, it reads
" Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.
In the letter according to the Hebrews, it reads
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” Hebrews 11:5
Just as Enoch pleased God and and was translated so that he would not taste death, so was John, the apostle, as he is being described as “the apostle Jesus loved” and at the end of his Gosple (John), it reads
Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; he was the one who had reclined next to Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!” So the rumor spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
It seems possible that both, Enoch and John pleased God, did not taste death,and wrote an apocalyptic book.

Elijah was taken into heaven bodily as well, and is to return to prepare the way for the coming of Christ, being the reason as to why John the Baptist was asked if he was himself the return of Elijah. In the book of Malchi, it reads
But for you who revere my name the sun of righteousness shall rise," (3:20, 4:2)
“Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.” (3:23, 4:5)
The same can be seen in the person of Mary, who is believed to have assumed into the Heavens bodily, and through her apparitions, is preparing the coming of her Son.In Revation it reads
And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 12:2and she was the child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. 12:3And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems. 12:4And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child. 12:5And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. 12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Here, the woman is led in the desert and is fed for a period of three and one half years. The same is found in Elijah when he is led in the desert and is fed by ravens until the end of the drought, which lasted three and one half years, according to Jesus.Also notice that Elijah and Mary are both viewed alongside the “Sun of Rightiousness”.

The connection between Moses and Jesus is self explanatory since both are seen as being mediators between God and man.
Remember, Jesus did also say to them,

** “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.” (Mark 9:1 **
Andre
 
andre,
that is a very interesting response. actually, my husband, while not sure, doesn’t doubt the possibility that Mary was assumed into heaven. He said that “it sorda makes sense, since she was His mother and all and He really loved her.” or something like that.
 
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