Another question for catholics

[BelFarfalla]

Yes you are probably right but I think you could tell me the WAY to getting there. You know what is needed. After all, isnt that what evandelizing is all about.

Of course we could tell the WAY to get there. It cannot be covered in one post on the CA Forums. You could start by reading the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and living by those.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Of course we could tell the WAY to get there. It cannot be covered in one post on the CA Forums. You could start by reading the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and living by those.

Hi,
Actually I agree with you about the bible and the map analogy
Thanks

I believe that the bible is the map that will lead you to salvation:thumbsup: Of course dont get me wrong, Im not leaving out the grace of God that we need first to even start the journey.

 

[Allweather]

allforhim,

You might consider thinking in terms of submission to authority.

It seems to me that Protestants approach the Gospel from a position of having to feel “convinced” in their own minds about the truth of the various aspects of that Gospel, before they can bring themselves to accept it. It seems to me that, based on what you’ve said earlier in this thread, you’re approaching Catholicism the same way. I believe this is a flaw in judgement. It expresses a certain, how can I say it nicely? Arrogance about one’s own mental capabilities… as if he/she is capable of understanding God, and as if God places himself at the mercy of his/her understanding.

There are many inscrutible things about the Gospel. Things like Trinity, resurrection, ascension, sitting at the right hand of the Father, coming again in glory, etc, are fairly hard to grasp for most people. Even so, finding them hard to understand, we give intellectual assent to them, believing in them, and hoping to have the fullness of them revealed to us by the Holy Spirit now, or later in Heaven.

I go further. As a Protestant, I discovered that Protestants teach a wide variety of doctrines about these various inscrutible points, and that no one church of them in particular claims to have authority. They lay authority at the feet of the Bible, which isn’t competent as a final authority, was never intended to be. The real authority comes from the Church, not the Bible. That authority is vested in the Church by Jesus, see Mt 16.

So, for me, it comes down to authority. The Church has the claim to fame in terms of authority. Therefore, I submit to the authority of the Church, since this is the Earthly arm of Jesus’ authority. I can trust that everything the Church teaches is good, and true, and efficacious unto my sanctification and salvation. When I encounter things that “seem” odd to me, such as Mary, or the Eucharist, or the communion of saints, or whatnot, I just give my intellectual assent to these, and hope and pray for further crystallization of understanding. But I don’t NEED to understand everything. My mind is old and fuzzy now anyway. Understanding is nice, but the best understanding to have is to understand where authority lies, and to put trust in Jesus through the Church that He established.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Hi,
Actually I agree with you about the bible and the map analogy
Thanks

I believe that the bible is the map that will lead you to salvation:thumbsup: Of course dont get me wrong, Im not leaving out the grace of God that we need first to even start the journey.

Yes the bible. And there are as many interpretations of the bible as there are people, each being a personal interpretation. So that would mean that there are as many maps to salvation as there are personal interpretations of the Bible.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Yes the bible. And there are as many interpretations of the bible as there are people, each being a personal interpretation. So that would mean that there are as many maps to salvation as there are personal interpretations of the Bible.

Well, not really but I can certainly see why you think that But I had a thought that may help me.

The whole teaching or declaration(or whatever you call it )of me being able to be saved without being C came out of Vatican 2–right? Before that the CC taught that no one could be saved outside the CC. So maybe someone could give me a link to where it talks about this and why they cahnged in Vatican 2.

Does the CC give a reason why they all of a sudden thought people could be saved outside the CC?

Im open to any links you have that explain this.

 

[Allweather]

Well, not really but I can certainly see why you think that But I had a thought that may help me.

The whole teaching or declaration(or whatever you call it )of me being able to be saved without being C came out of Vatican 2–right? Before that the CC taught that no one could be saved outside the CC. So maybe someone could give me a link to where it talks about this and why they cahnged in Vatican 2.

Does the CC give a reason why they all of a sudden thought people could be saved outside the CC?

Im open to any links you have that explain this.

Nothing “changed” at Vat II. This is one of the beauties of Catholic Tradition, the fact that things have to line up, from the distant past all the way to the present.

You have to define what you mean by “outside the CC.” What the CC actually teaches is that all Christians are saved by some connection, however frail, with the CC. After all, the CC is the prime mover when it comes to Apostolic activity in the world.

There is also an aspect of the world, even the non-Christian world, being the beneficiary of Christian activity through the Catholic Church.

The map analogy is very good. The CC contains every teaching a man needs to become a saint. The other churches contain particles of these teachings, but not all of them. Salvation comes from God, and ONLY God knows who is to be saved. He gave us the map. Some people use only parts of the map, others draw their own maps. But for a man who grabs 'hold of the whole map, he is safe and secure, knowing that he has the directions, and that even when he has trouble understanding some of the symbols on it, Jesus will be there looking over his shoulder to give some assistance.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

allforhim,

It seems to me that Protestants approach the Gospel from a position of having to feel “convinced” in their own minds about the truth of the various aspects of that Gospel, before they can bring themselves to accept it. It seems to me that, based on what you’ve said earlier in this thread, you’re approaching Catholicism the same way. I believe this is a flaw in judgement. It expresses a certain, how can I say it nicely? Arrogance about one’s own mental capabilities… as if he/she is capable of understanding God, and as if God places himself at the mercy of his/her understanding.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You have to define what you mean by “outside the CC.”

Not a member of the CC.

What the CC actually teaches is that all Christians are saved by some connection, however frail, with the CC.

This is exactly what I am looking for the answer to. Thank you

What is that some connection, however frail, that the CC is speaking about?

There is also an aspect of the world, even the non-Christian world, being the beneficiary of Christian activity through the Catholic Church.

Agreed

Some people use only parts of the map,

The logic behind this is confusing here to me. If someone(like me because Im not catholic) has only part of the map then how can I possibly be saved Dont you have to have the whole map in order to get where you are going? So how then can I be saved if I only have part of the map?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

My mind is old and fuzzy now anyway

.
LOL I just had to laugh at this Im only 41 and that is how I feel. Last Friday I actually forgot to pick up my neice Thank the Lord her mom picked her up If I am like this now–WHAT AM I GOING TO BE LIKE WHEN I AM CONSIDERED ELDERLY:crying:

 

[Allweather]

Well, go to the Bible then. How did Jesus set up the teaching authority of the Church he established?

First, he selected 12 men. Fallible, sinful men. He spent 3 years carefully teaching them.

Then, he told them, go unto all the world teaching them all that I have commanded.

So, this is Jesus’ plan. The commandments of Jesus will come to us via men. The Apostles are these men. And since Jesus didn’t return during the lifetimes of those original Apostles, it is obvious that there must be a successon, which we see today in the Catholic bishops, and the pope, who is the bishop of Rome, the successor to Peter, who was the leader of the Apostles.

So, we find from the Bible that Jesus planned from the outset to teach his commandments thru men. He selected men to do the job. He ordained them, gave them all authority, including the authority to bind on earth saying that whatsoever they bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven. That a whole bushel of authority!

So, it still comes down to authority. When I was in the Army I was bound to the authority of the officers appointed over me. As long as I followed orders carefully, I knew that the mission would get accomplished, and I’d stay out of trouble. The Church’s authority is similar. Jesus gave us that Church, and vested it with His authority. As long as we submit and obey what the Church teaches, which after all is exactly what Jesus wants us to do, then we’re safe, the mission will get accomplished, and we’ll stay out of trouble.

 

[Allweather]

.
LOL I just had to laugh at this Im only 41 and that is how I feel. Last Friday I actually forgot to pick up my neice Thank the Lord her mom picked her up If I am like this now–WHAT AM I GOING TO BE LIKE WHEN I AM CONSIDERED ELDERLY:crying:

Yes, well friend, let me tell you from the vantage point of nearly 60, it ain’t gonna get any better!!!

 

[Mickey]

I agree on authority. You put yours in the church(which is made up of sinful people) and I put mine in God.

That is not a nice thing to say. Catholics believe in a visible and invisible Church. Since we believe that Christ is the head of the visible Church, we put our trust in Christ–not the sinners in the pews.

Infallibility is just not given to any human being. It doesnt matter what spin you put on it -it isnt in the bible.

No one is trying to spin anything. We are not trying to fool you. Catholics believe that the bishop of Rome, (as the successor of St Peter), is graced with the charism to speak truth in matters of faith and morals. This “infallible” grace comes from the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, he is human and capable of error as any human being.

 

[Mickey]

What is that some connection, however frail, that the CC is speaking about?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

819
“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

]That is not a nice thing to say. Catholics believe in a visible and invisible Church. Since we believe that Christ is the head of the visible Church, we put our trust in Christ–not the sinners in the pews.

I know Im sorry. But I actually meant the magesterium–not the general population.
No one is trying to spin anything. We are not trying to fool you. Catholics believe that the bishop of Rome, (as the successor of St Peter), is graced with the charism to speak truth in matters of faith and morals. This “infallible” grace comes from the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, he is human and capable of error as any human being.

Yes I know you believe this as I believe there is no teaching on infallibilty in the bible. But I actually dont want to discuss this .

I derailed my own thread Sorry

Back to topic please:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

819
“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Thank you

Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.

"

Is this in the bible somewhere or is this sacred tradition?

 

[Allweather]

Not a member of the CC.

What is that some connection, however frail, that the CC is speaking about?

All Christians are by some measure members of the CC. They may not be in full communion, but since the CC is the vessle by which Jesus has his saving word carried into the world, and since most of the Christian communions do carry the bulk of those teachings themselves, they are therefore part of the CC. This isn’t a technical explanation. The best way to get this is detail is from the Catechism.

The logic behind this is confusing here to me. If someone(like me because Im not catholic) has only part of the map then how can I possibly be saved Dont you have to have the whole map in order to get where you are going? So how then can I be saved if I only have part of the map?

I think the best way to push the map analogy is to mention again that Jesus is looking over your shoulder. He alone is able to judge the heart, and the motives. A person doesn’t need to be in full communion with the Catholic Church in order to have this benefit of Jesus’ oversight. Also, salvation is done by God through Jesus, not by anything we do or don’t do, per se. It is true that we have to conduct certain “works” in order to avail ourselves of salvation, but mostly this is something done by God alone. We have to put one foot in front of the other as we follow the roadsigns. We have to drive the car and put gas in it. But the map can be inscrutible at times, confusing in places. Heck, even with a map and GPS, I get lost all the time! So we do need Jesus’ help, in addition to the map.

And of course, the road gets bumpy in places. The car breaks down. In addition to the map, which in this case is the full teachings of the Catholic Church, we also need to lean fully on Jesus, every day, in every way. When you look at the lives of the saints, mostly you see people who suffered terribly. I think this is one of the unsettling parts of the Gospel, the promise that suffering will attend a life in Christ, along with the promise that the suffering will be redemptive. Our Catholic Church makes sense of suffering, which is an aspect of much of modern American Protestantism I find almost completely lacking. The American Protestant evangelicals seem intent on proving that a good Christian will be rich, and not suffer much illness or trouble in life. Catholicism gets down to the suffering level, acknowledges suffering, embraces it as God’s will for the true believer. This I believe is true Christianity.

 

[Stephen_C]

Is this in the bible somewhere or is this sacred tradition?

Well yes…When Jesus told Simon he is Peter and upon this rock he will build his Church. He gives Peter (Simon) the keys and the authority as to what ever he binds or loose here on earth will be so in Heaven…

 

[Mickey]

Yes I know you believe this as I believe there is no teaching on infallibilty in the bible.

The Holy Spirit does not teach untruth.

But I will not derail further.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Our Catholic Church makes sense of suffering, which is an aspect of much of modern American Protestantism I find almost completely lacking. The American Protestant evangelicals seem intent on proving that a good Christian will be rich, and not suffer much illness or trouble in life.

Yeah those are the health and wealth ministers. I dont agree with that at all and do believe they are teaching false assurances.

Catholicism gets down to the suffering level, acknowledges suffering, embraces it as God’s will for the true believer. This I believe is true Christianity.

Im with you on this one:thumbsup: Dont forget we are suppose to be joyful during these sufferings Man that one is hard. I think of Paul and think I am nothing like him. Im a wimp–even with Christ holding my hand

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The Holy Spirit does not teach untruth.

But I will not derail further.

Agreed:thumbsup: