Another question for catholics

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Stephen_C said:
Well yes…When Jesus told Simon he is Peter and upon this rock he will build his Church. He gives Peter (Simon) the keys and the authority as to what ever he binds or loose here on earth will be so in Heaven…
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Yes and Im sure you already know that I do not believe that is the correct intrepretation of that verse.😛 😉 😃

Im derailing again:mad: You know I just feel that I should respond to people because it is my thread. If I dont respond I feel like Im being rude:o

Back to topic.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Yes and Im sure you already know that I do not believe that is the correct intrepretation of that verse.😛 😉 😃
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Then you see the problem of trying to use the bible as an ultimate authority. Words on paper cannot explain themselves, or teach. Only persons can teach and preach.

But back to the topic. Catholics believe that anyone who is validly baptized (which includes most protestants) is thereby incorporated into the body of Christ, the Church on earth, which is the Catholic Church.

So, if you are baptized, you are already at least partially Catholic! Should you join the Catholic Church, you would not be re-baptized.

And anyone who ultimately achieves salvation, is saved through the graces given by Christ, through the Church.
 
JimG said:
Then you see the problem of trying to use the bible as an ultimate authority. Words on paper cannot explain themselves, or teach. Only persons can teach and preach.
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I have a question about the very last statement. Why are we saved through Christ–through the CC? Why is it not just through Christ as the bible says? The true body of believers(The Church)are the ones that will be in heaven. So it doesnt make sense to me that we are saved through the church. What makes sense to me is that when we become saved through Christ we become part of the church and hence end up in heaven.😃 But the church is not what saves us.
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To answer your question…I refer you back to post #36 🙂
You are right it is not his Church that saves us. It is through his Church
 
ALLFORHIM said:
But the church is not what saves us.
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You are right, it is not the Church (as an institution) which saves us. It is Christ who saves us. But the Church is the body of Christ here on earth, and the holy spirit is its soul.

So, in baptism, we are incorporated into that one body of Christ here on earth. His life flows through us as members of his body. And the more closely we are united to Him in this way, the more easily we become sanctified through receiving His grace.

Now I realize that protestants do not view salvation in quite this way. In their view it is more becoming spiritually united with Christ.

But Catholicism is an incarnational Church. Christ used physical things to convey grace and power while he was with us–water, touch, spoken words, even mud (when healing the blind man.) To us, the sacraments are a continuation of that–using physical things to convey unseen grace, as a continuation of the work of Christ.

It’s just easier being in the boat.
 
JimG said:
You are right, it is not the Church (as an institution) which saves us. It is Christ who saves us. But the Church is the body of Christ here on earth, and the holy spirit is its soul.

So, in baptism, we are incorporated into that one body of Christ here on earth. His life flows through us as members of his body. And the more closely we are united to Him in this way, the more easily we become sanctified through receiving His grace.

Now I realize that protestants do not view salvation in quite this way. In their view it is more becoming spiritually united with Christ.

But Catholicism is an incarnational Church. Christ used physical things to convey grace and power while he was with us–water, touch, spoken words, even mud (when healing the blind man.) To us, the sacraments are a continuation of that–using physical things to convey unseen grace, as a continuation of the work of Christ.

It’s just easier being in the boat.
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Thank you Jim I understand where you are coming from.😃
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Yeah you know that is probably where the difference is more then the authority issue.🤷
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Again, and sorry for being redundant, but I think it bears elaboration… for me, it ALL comes down to authority. Did Jesus, or did he not, establish an AUTHORITATIVE, VISIBLE, church on Earth?

Isn’t this the same Church that assembled the Biblical materials and canonized them? Doesn’t the authority of the Scriptures flow out of the authority given to the Church by Jesus?
 
I know this is off thread, but who put the Bible together? Read Iraneous. The Bible did not put itself together.

Back to the thread. You don’t have to believe in Jesus to be saved. Jesus saves the whole world through His Grace, even those who do not know Him.

You can’t think all the people who have never heard of Jesus nor had the ability to develop a faith in Him, but follow the morality of their given theology as best they can are not saved?

I think of Muslim or Jehovah’s Witness (insert any other non Christian religion) children and teens, though they have reached the age of reason, have not had the chance to learn about Jesus, who have not had the chance to find out for themselves what is truth.

Ultimately, only God can read a soul. He can save who-ever He wants. We are not the judges.

Having said that, once we know Him, we must give him our all. Once we know Him, we thirst for Him and want to please Him always. We are called to to be salt (Mat 5). Salt makes us thirst.
We are called to be light, not hidden under a bushel basket. So once we know Him, we must follow Him. It is not fath ALONE.

To know Jesus is to do His will. Those who know Him and do not his will will not enter Heaven (be saved). The Devil and his minions know Jesus, but the CHOSE not to follow Him. They are in Hell.

Preach always, use words only when necessary.
St. Francis of Assisi
Allweather said:
Isn’t this the same Church that assembled the Biblical materials and canonized them? Doesn’t the authority of the Scriptures flow out of the authority given to the Church by Jesus?
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Having read my post, I realize I looks like I’m questioning your post about the authority of the CC. I meant to back you up:o
qui_est_ce said:
I know this is off thread, but who put the Bible together? Read Iraneous. The Bible did not put itself together.
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qui_est_ce said:
Having read my post, I realize I looks like I’m questioning your post about the authority of the CC. I meant to back you up:o
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Not a problem, Christine. You said it better than I did in any case. You just put the quote at the end rather than the beginning.
 
Thank you Qui and ALL

Im again pleading the fifth as not to derail the thread.😃

Im being strict with myself(you have no idea) because I cant stand when threads go off on tangents.😉
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi All,

I was wondering what your thoughts or CC teachings are on this question.

You know how the CC teaches and you guys proclaim that we(non-catholics) can be saved even though we are not catholic, well my question is:

What exactly does the CC say we(as non-catholics)have to do/believe/feel etc in order to be saved with never stepping into a CC?

This thought popped into my head while I was driving and I thought --Everyone says how NCC can be saved outside the CC but no one has said how(to my knowledge anyway).

Thanks for any insight or answer to my question:thumbsup:
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Dr. Art Sippo writes “[No salvation outside the Church] was reiterated at Vatican II in Lumen Gentium Paragraph 14. Now formal membership is the ordinary means of salvation, but the Church has always accepted that there can be extenuating circumstances and that one may be related to the Catholic Church less formally [this will include many Christians of other denominations]. Technically, all validly **baptized **persons are members of the Catholic Church.”

Also some honest seekers, who through no fault of their own, did not learn about the the Catholic Church will be saved.

Dogmas at: theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Does not invincible ignorance also address being unable to join even when rejecting what is claimed to be true by the CC?

google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=invincible+ignorance&spell=1
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Invincible ignorance and incredulouse ignorance are not to be confused.

It would be the difference between a Downs Syndrome Kid and a person who hears but has no ear to believe.

I suppose a certain amount of misconceived indoctrination could be considered vincible ignorance but it must be worked at over coming.

Just hearing the truth isnt always enough to accept at first.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Does not invincible ignorance also address being unable to join even when rejecting what is claimed to be true by the CC?

google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=invincible+ignorance&spell=1
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Inaccessibility is a valid exception, for example, coming to realize the Catholic church is the true church, but because one is trapped in an islamic or other culture where the Church isn’t present.

But disagreement with Dogma is not.
Disagreement but submission to doctrine is permissible, but open dissent with doctrine is not.
 
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