Another Question for LDS

[SirThomasMore]

Mormons always tell us that IF we pray, and IF we ask with a sincere heart, the Spirit will lead us to the LDS Church. If it doesn;t, then either we did not really pray, or we did not have the a sincere heart.

Now, I was LDS, I prayed with a very sincere heart on my knees till they ached…and God led me out of the LDS Church.

Later, after years of searching for where God wanted me, God, thru his Spirit, led me to the Catholic Church.

Later, when I had a pull to go back to the LDs Church, I attend Sac meetings, I read books, I watched GC, I met with missionaries, and I read the B of M. I WANTED the LDS Church to be true. I prayed very very sincerely. God, thru the Holy Spirit, told me the LDS Church was NOT the true Church and to stay in the Catholic Church.

Now. Here is my question. So, according to what the Spirit told me, the LDS Church is NOT true and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has directed from Peter to Benedict.

The Holy Spirit does not lie, right?

 

[Kdesiel]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Light and Truth.
It doesn’t lie.
Welcome home brother.
Home to the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Thanks.

Same to you

 

[barnesms]

Mormons always tell us that IF we pray, and IF we ask with a sincere heart, the Spirit will lead us to the LDS Church. If it doesn;t, then either we did not really pray, or we did not have the a sincere heart.

Now, I was LDS, I prayed with a very sincere heart on my knees till they ached…and God led me out of the LDS Church.

Later, after years of searching for where God wanted me, God, thru his Spirit, led me to the Catholic Church.

Later, when I had a pull to go back to the LDS Church, I attend Sac meetings, I read books, I watched GC, I met with missionaries, and I read the B of M. I WANTED the LDS Church to be true. I prayed very very sincerely. God, thru the Holy Spirit, told me the LDS Church was NOT the true Church and to stay in the Catholic Church.

Now. Here is my question. So, according to what the Spirit told me, the LDS Church is NOT true and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has directed from Peter to Benedict.

The Holy Spirit does not lie, right?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth; he is the revelator that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. I think you should always follow the Spirit and you have done the right thing by doing so.

I reject the concept of relative truth; the only truths in the world are absolute. I believe God directs those who seek him in prayer and he answers. I am a Latter-day Saint and the only reason I am a LDS is that I know that God has told me this is where I belong and the Spirit has testified of its fullness of truth. There would appear to be a possible contradiction in what the Spirit has told each of us.

I do not know the designs of God, but through the lives of his disciples, I know he will accomplish his will. His disciples are found throughout the world in all churches. I would go as far to say that where ever an individual finds truth, any degree of truth, and acts upon it, there you find the will of God being accomplished regardless of religion. I certainly believe that there are differing degrees of truth within religions and churches, but truth is of little value unless each of us embrace it and live it.

I can easily rejoice in the conversion of a LDS to Catholicism as I can find in a Catholic converting to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when I sense that they are following the guidance of the Spirit. For some reason, God directs us in ways that seem to conflict, but when we follow the Spirit, we will accomplish His Will for us and for others.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth; he is the revelator that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. I think you should always follow the Spirit and you have done the right thing by doing so.

I reject the concept of relative truth; the only truths in the world are absolute. I believe God directs those who seek him in prayer and he answers. I am a Latter-day Saint and the only reason I am a LDS is that I know that God has told me this is where I belong and the Spirit has testified of its fullness of truth. There would appear to be a possible contradiction in what the Spirit has told each of us.

I do not know the designs of God, but through the lives of his disciples, I know he will accomplish his will. His disciples are found throughout the world in all churches. I would go as far to say that where ever an individual finds truth, any degree of truth, and acts upon it, there you find the will of God being accomplished regardless of religion. I certainly believe that there are differing degrees of truth within religions and churches, but truth is of little value unless each of us embrace it and live it.

I can easily rejoice in the conversion of a LDS to Catholicism as I can find in a Catholic converting to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when I sense that they are following the guidance of the Spirit. For some reason, God directs us in ways that seem to conflict, but when we follow the Spirit, we will accomplish His Will for us and for others.

So, the Holy Spirit confirmed to me that LDS Church was false, not once, but twice. You claim the Holy Spirit confirmed in you that the LDS was True. So, the Holy Spirit must be lying to one of us. Right?

 

[Returning_Home]

Mormons always tell us that IF we pray, and IF we ask with a sincere heart, the Spirit will lead us to the LDS Church. If it doesn;t, then either we did not really pray, or we did not have the a sincere heart.

Now, I was LDS, I prayed with a very sincere heart on my knees till they ached…and God led me out of the LDS Church.

Later, after years of searching for where God wanted me, God, thru his Spirit, led me to the Catholic Church.

Later, when I had a pull to go back to the LDs Church, I attend Sac meetings, I read books, I watched GC, I met with missionaries, and I read the B of M. I WANTED the LDS Church to be true. I prayed very very sincerely. God, thru the Holy Spirit, told me the LDS Church was NOT the true Church and to stay in the Catholic Church.

Now. Here is my question. So, according to what the Spirit told me, the LDS Church is NOT true and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has directed from Peter to Benedict.

The Holy Spirit does not lie, right?

I think the problem here is that the conclusion is predetermined: if you pray over the Book Of Mormon and find it not to be true, the problem is obviously with you, not with the faith. The only acceptable answer is that it is, indeed, true.

 

[lax16]

I think the problem here is that the conclusion is predetermined: if you pray over the Book Of Mormon and find it not to be true, the problem is obviously with you, not with the faith. The only acceptable answer is that it is, indeed, true.

Try telling a missonary that you have read the BoM and found it to be not true

Not a nice way to end the evening, I can assure you. (Although I am convinced our missionary had anger management issues).

 

[Javl]

Mormons always tell us that IF we pray, and IF we ask with a sincere heart, the Spirit will lead us to the LDS Church. If it doesn;t, then either we did not really pray, or we did not have the a sincere heart.

Now, I was LDS, I prayed with a very sincere heart on my knees till they ached…and God led me out of the LDS Church.

Later, after years of searching for where God wanted me, God, thru his Spirit, led me to the Catholic Church.

Later, when I had a pull to go back to the LDs Church, I attend Sac meetings, I read books, I watched GC, I met with missionaries, and I read the B of M. I WANTED the LDS Church to be true. I prayed very very sincerely. God, thru the Holy Spirit, told me the LDS Church was NOT the true Church and to stay in the Catholic Church.

Now. Here is my question. So, according to what the Spirit told me, the LDS Church is NOT true and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has directed from Peter to Benedict.

The Holy Spirit does not lie, right?

The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Blessed Trinity, is God and God does not/can not lie. Welcome home to Jesus’ one true Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[barnesms]

So, the Holy Spirit confirmed to me that LDS Church was false, not once, but twice. You claim the Holy Spirit confirmed in you that the LDS was True. So, the Holy Spirit must be lying to one of us. Right?

You seem to not read my edits completely; I am not sure that I should repeat myself or just tell you to read the my above edit. I will recommend the later so as not to be repetitious.

What I know is what the Spirit speaks to me. I cannot vouch for what he has told you, but I am willing to accept that the Holy Spirit has lead down another path. There are over 36,000 Christian denominations in the world today. I am unwilling to believe that God only talks to one group, be it Catholic or Mormon and everyone else is following Satan. There is a single source of truth in the world and that is God. I must believe that God is active in the lives of all who seek Him and accepts their current path and will make sure that all of us accomplish His will.

 

[SirThomasMore]

You seem to not read my edits completely; I am not sure that I should repeat myself or just tell you to read the my above edit. I will recommend the later so as not to be repetitious.

What I know is what the Spirit speaks to me. I cannot vouch for what he has told you, but I am willing to accept that the Holy Spirit has lead down another path. There are over 36,000 Christian denominations in the world today. I am unwilling to believe that God only talks to one group, be it Catholic or Mormon and everyone else is following Satan. There is a single source of truth in the world and that is God. I must believe that God is active in the lives of all who seek Him and accepts their current path and will make sure that all of us accomplish His will.

that dodged my question. I did not ask about leading here or there. I asked a very specific question. I will ask it again.

So, according to what the Spirit told me, the LDS Church is NOT true and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has directed from Peter to Benedict.

The Holy Spirit does not lie, right?

 

[barnesms]

that dodged my question. I did not ask about leading here or there. I asked a very specific question. I will ask it again.

So, according to what the Spirit told me, the LDS Church is NOT true and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and has directed from Peter to Benedict.

The Holy Spirit does not lie, right?

The Holy Spirit does not lie and I think you are doing His will. I also don’t believe you when you say that the Holy Spirit said that the Book of Mormon was not true. Does this answer put you in a better place? Does it help the conversation? The Spirit has taught me too much truth for me to say differently. I also know you by your works as demonstrated by the spirit that emanates from your writing style. By all that is right and holy, I pray that you are doing the will of God Almighty in the rest of your life.

 

[Returning_Home]

There are over 36,000 Christian denominations in the world today. I am unwilling to believe that God only talks to one group, be it Catholic or Mormon and everyone else is following Satan. There is a single source of truth in the world and that is God. I must believe that God is active in the lives of all who seek Him and accepts their current path and will make sure that all of us accomplish His will.

I totally agree, but this contradicts the BOM in its entirety and early Mormonism didn’t have any respect for Christianity whatsoever:

Journal of Discourses 5:73–“When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness.”

Journal of Discourses 8:99–“With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.”

Journal of Discourses 6:25–“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.”

Orson Pratt (Mormon Apostle)–"…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism of the Lord’s supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people" (The Seer, pg 255)

Heber C. Kimball (First Counselor to Brigham Young)–“Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth…” (Journal of Discourses 5:39)

There’s also what the church holds to be true about the Bible, which isn’t publicly stated:

“Unlike the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the Book of Mormon came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation.” (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, Ensign, Jan 1992, p 5)

This, then, raises the question: why did God give Mormons a Bible they could rely on? Well he did, sort of. Didn’t God tell Joseph Smith to “retranslate” the Bible? (D&C 73:3-4) And didn’t Smith claim to have done just that? (HOTC 1:324 and 1:368-69)

That being the case, why can’t the LDS legally use the JST? Does God abdicate to the laws of mere men?

 

[SirThomasMore]

The Holy Spirit does not lie and I think you are doing His will. I also don’t believe you when you say that the Holy Spirit said that the Book of Mormon was not true.

Why don’t you believe me? The Holy Spirit testified to me that it was not true. So, why don’t you believe me?

Does this answer put you in a better place? Does it help the conversation?

Yes

The Spirit has taught me too much truth for me to say differently.

The Holy Spirit has taught ME so much truth.

I also know you by your works as demonstrated by the spirit that emanates from your writing style.

Actually, you don’t. And if you choose to judge based on writing and agressiveness, then we can always take a look at the agressive and hate-promoting comments of Joseph Smith, BY, Sidney Rigdon, and many other Mormons. I am actually one of the most giving and understanding people you will ever know. I try not to judge people based on debate board posts. You are free to judge me all you’d like. As a side note, I have noticed things YOU have written that were less than charitable. Should we judge you on those comments? I have apologized for earlier misconduct. But I have had Mormons call me a liar here, and when proven wrong refuse to apologize. I have had Parker make iuncredibly unChristlike comments to me and refuse to apologize. Is this what you base your judgements on?

By all that is right and holy, I pray that you are doing the will of God Almighty in the rest of your life.

I am. God himself led me from the LDS Church and kept me out when I wanted to go back. His Spirit has confirmed in me that the LDS is false and that the Book of Mormon is false. I am curious as to how you can tell me I am not telling the truth.

 

[MelanieAnne]

SirThomas,

You have raised a question that has far broader application, as I expect you very well know. Yes, it is true, God cannot lie, the Holy Spirit cannot lie. (I’ve always wondered how that inability to lie squares with “omnipotence” )

But if you look at the Christian world at large, you see a myriad of different sects, and yet all believe they are led by the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. Obviously that cannot be so. The Holy Spirit can only deliver one message, not multiple messages, and particularly not multiple** conflicting** messages.

Which then leads us to the question of how can this happen? As one of my Mormon friends once described someone she knew ~ some people have a “pretty convenient Holy Ghost” ~ which I guess is a way of saying that some people have a facility for substituting their own will for God’s, and at some point they may truly believe that it is God’s will they are proclaiming and not their own. Many people (both Bishop Sheen and Vladimir Lenin (!) in various ways) have stated that if you repeat a lie often enough, it starts to sound like truth. We cannot fall into that trap. We need to get back to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

At this point, and since I am a Catholic, this one is easy for me, I like to mention that our Church was founded by Jesus whereas every other sect & denomination was founded by a man. Only one of those faiths was founded by someone who did not have the opportunity to substitute His own will for God’s and guess which one that is?

In the end, just as starkly as the fact that at some point we will be in either heaven or hell, when it comes to the Holy Spirit, it’s like the movie called the “Highlander” ~ “there can be only one”. There is only one message. There cannot be multiple messages. Among all this “noise” of conflicting opinions, that is true. The others have to be false because the Holy Spirit cannot lie. I will not speculate on the source of the false ones, it is sufficient to say they are false.

As for me, I choose the message of the Holy Spirit that has guided the church founded by Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years. In the end, everyone has to choose ~ will you follow the faith founded by Jesus? or will you follow a faith founded by someone else.

I’ll pick Jesus EVERY TIME!

 

[SirThomasMore]

SirThomas,

You have raised a question that has far broader application, as I expect you very well know. Yes, it is true, God cannot lie, the Holy Spirit cannot lie. (I’ve always wondered how that inability to lie squares with “omnipotence” )

But if you look at the Christian world at large, you see a myriad of different sects, and yet all believe they are led by the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. Obviously that cannot be so. The Holy Spirit can only deliver one message, not multiple messages, and particularly not multiple** conflicting** messages.

Which then leads us to the question of how can this happen? As one of my Mormon friends once described someone she knew ~ some people have a “pretty convenient Holy Ghost” ~ which I guess is a way of saying that some people have a facility for substituting their own will for God’s, and at some point they may truly believe that it is God’s will they are proclaiming and not their own. Many people (both Bishop Sheen and Vladimir Lenin (!) in various ways) have stated that if you repeat a lie often enough, it starts to sound like truth. We cannot fall into that trap. We need to get back to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

At this point, and since I am a Catholic, this one is easy for me, I like to mention that our Church was founded by Jesus whereas every other sect & denomination was founded by a man. Only one of those faiths was founded by someone who did not have the opportunity to substitute His own will for God’s and guess which one that is?

In the end, just as starkly as the fact that at some point we will be in either heaven or hell, when it comes to the Holy Spirit, it’s like the movie called the “Highlander” ~ “there can be only one”. There is only one message. There cannot be multiple messages. Among all this “noise” of conflicting opinions, that is true. The others have to be false because the Holy Spirit cannot lie. I will not speculate on the source of the false ones, it is sufficient to say they are false.

As for me, I choose the message of the Holy Spirit that has guided the church founded by Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years. In the end, everyone has to choose ~ will you follow the faith founded by Jesus? or will you follow a faith founded by someone else.

I’ll pick Jesus EVERY TIME!

Here is the deal: I never wanted to be Catholic. I was very anti-Catholic. I blamed the Catholic Church for a lot of the ills in Central America (where I lived for 5 years). But an incredible Spiritual Experience led me to the Catholic Church against my wishes. Later, I REALLY wanted to return the LDS Church. I had such great memories of my mission and all that I did as LDS. But, despite MY wishes, they were not GOD’S wishes. I was told by the Spirit very plainly that the LDS Church was false and that the Catholic Church was the true Church.

So, twice, against what I wanted, I have had confirmation that the Catholic Church is true.

 

[MelanieAnne]

So, twice, against what I wanted, I have had confirmation that the Catholic Church is true.

And we’re happy to have you! You are a very brave, very valiant soul to set aside what would be much easier, in favor of Truth.

I’m sure it has not been convenient for you. Usually, when someone leaves Mormonism, they leave a lot behind. Since you are a Returned Missionary, I’m sure that “a lot” pertains to you. Depending on the situation, it can very very difficult at times. We have people on this forum who have (at least supposedly) tried to “bridge the gap” between Mormonism and another faith, including the Catholic faith. It’s very hard to do. (Actually it’s impossible but I’m trying to be NICE!)

I have seriously worried about those who tried to be both Mormon and something else, especially when that “something else” was Catholic, then finally realized that if it wasn’t of any concern to them, then there was little or nothing I could do. Just as an example, WhyMe says that he is both Catholic and Mormon but that cannot occur in reality unless someone betrays one or both faiths. And yet it has continued, supposedly, for years. I gave up asking if WhyMe had talked about to his priest about his dual faith. I came to believe that WhyMe is a Mormon posing as a Catholic in order to proselytize, but I truly have no idea because WhyMe refuses to actually define himself, much less answer questions.

I have also seen, within my own experience, persons who left Mormonism who were, effectively, shunned. It may not be a formal shunning, in the sense that it is authorized by the church, but it definitely occurs. Enough people who were once Mormon have reported the phenomenon to establish that it occurs. If your work-life is tied into Mormonism, it can be particularly problematic, but even if it is not, the loss of many persons who you once thought of as “friends” can be very upsetting. Some people, as a result, cannot make that break. We have had people post to this forum who converted to Catholicism, who continue to attend Sacrament meeting, just to maintain the social relationships. I wouldn’t recommend that, nor, if I had been Mormon at some point, would I do that, but I understand that.

So you are a very valiant soul Sir Thomas. I am witness to what courage it took for you to change. Yours is a very valiant story. And I applaud you! (Just not in church! Ask me why!)

 

[Returning_Home]

Here is the deal: I never wanted to be Catholic. I was very anti-Catholic. I blamed the Catholic Church for a lot of the ills in Central America (where I lived for 5 years). But an incredible Spiritual Experience led me to the Catholic Church against my wishes. Later, I REALLY wanted to return the LDS Church. I had such great memories of my mission and all that I did as LDS. But, despite MY wishes, they were not GOD’S wishes. I was told by the Spirit very plainly that the LDS Church was false and that the Catholic Church was the true Church.

So, twice, against what I wanted, I have had confirmation that the Catholic Church is true.

I like Catholicism; I like the imagery, the sense of history and mystery (especially in an old, traditional building), the art, the ceremony, and so forth. I also have some problems with certain parts of the dogma, but overall, I can reconcile those things to make it all work for me.

I do think, however, that the church needs to address some of the more serious problems it faces, like the priest sexual abuse problems, birth control, and so on. Until it does, we’ll always have problems with other Christian denominations. The church is run and organized by flawed, fallible, and sinful men and it simply needs to admit that. I’m not pointing fingers because I’m not better or worse than anyone before me.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And we’re happy to have you! You are a very brave, very valiant soul to set aside what would be much easier, in favor of Truth.

I’m sure it has not been convenient for you. Usually, when someone leaves Mormonism, they leave a lot behind. Since you are a Returned Missionary, I’m sure that “a lot” pertains to you. Depending on the situation, it can very very difficult at times. We have people on this forum who have (at least supposedly) tried to “bridge the gap” between Mormonism and another faith, including the Catholic faith. It’s very hard to do. (Actually it’s impossible but I’m trying to be NICE!)

I have seriously worried about those who tried to be both Mormon and something else, especially when that “something else” was Catholic, then finally realized that if it wasn’t of any concern to them, then there was little or nothing I could do. Just as an example, WhyMe says that he is both Catholic and Mormon but that cannot occur in reality unless someone betrays one or both faiths. And yet it has continued, supposedly, for years. I gave up asking if WhyMe had talked about to his priest about his dual faith. I came to believe that WhyMe is a Mormon posing as a Catholic in order to proselytize, but I truly have no idea because WhyMe refuses to actually define himself, much less answer questions.

I have also seen, within my own experience, persons who left Mormonism who were, effectively, shunned. It may not be a formal shunning, in the sense that it is authorized by the church, but it definitely occurs. Enough people who were once Mormon have reported the phenomenon to establish that it occurs. If your work-life is tied into Mormonism, it can be particularly problematic, but even if it is not, the loss of many persons who you once thought of as “friends” can be very upsetting. Some people, as a result, cannot make that break. We have had people post to this forum who converted to Catholicism, who continue to attend Sacrament meeting, just to maintain the social relationships. I wouldn’t recommend that, nor, if I had been Mormon at some point, would I do that, but I understand that.

So you are a very valiant soul Sir Thomas. I am witness to what courage it took for you to change. Yours is a very valiant story. And I applaud you! (Just not in church! Ask me why!)

Yes…when I left the Church, I was shunned. I was also harrassed. I was told I was going to hell for THE sin against the Spirit. I got phone calls at all hours. Finally, some Mormons tried to kidnap my children. It was an ugly scene with a Mormon ,ending up in the hospital and police involved.

Ok, I’ll bite…why?

 

[Returning_Home]

I have also seen, within my own experience, persons who left Mormonism who were, effectively, shunned. It may not be a formal shunning, in the sense that it is authorized by the church, but it definitely occurs. Enough people who were once Mormon have reported the phenomenon to establish that it occurs. If your work-life is tied into Mormonism, it can be particularly problematic, but even if it is not, the loss of many persons who you once thought of as “friends” can be very upsetting. Some people, as a result, cannot make that break.

I wholly agree; this keeps people in the fold and is the reason that it’s very hard for people to make the formal break form the church; many prefer to simply be “Jack Mormons,” LDS in name only.

I find that most Mormons have problems with the faith in one way or another, but it’s drilled into them in church, three hour Sunday school, family home night, monthly missionary visits, and the other church-sponsored activities and events.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Yes…when I left the Church, I was shunned. I was also harrassed. I was told I was going to hell for THE sin against the Spirit. I got phone calls at all hours. Finally, some Mormons tried to kidnap my children. It was an ugly scene with a Mormon ,ending up in the hospital and police involved.

Ok, I’ll bite…why?

It’s understandable, from an alternative point of view, that you were told that you were told you would go to Hell. After all, whoever told you that had an entirely different understanding.

I am sorry that you were shunned, and I am particularly sorry you were stalked at all hours on the phone, although all of that is all too “normal” despite the fact that Mormons disavow it as a practice. I am sorry that anyone was injured to the point they needed medical care and I am sorry that the local authorities had to be called. It is preposterous that anyone would attempt to kidnap your children so I cannot even begin to respond to that.

I’m sure that those who stalked you, in whatever way, meant to do so in what they thought was a “loving” way. As I said, I cannot begin to understand why anyone would attempt to kidnap your children. Obviously someone was very misguided.

I don’t usually attribute EVIL to the actions of persons of the Mormon faith. I usually attribute things to misguided enthusiasm. But sometimes it’s hard to tell.

I’m sorry this happened to you and I hope your family is not permanently scarred by the event. I will pray for you.

The “short” answer to your question of “why” is that the perpetrators sincerely thought they were doing the right thing.

It might be smart to MOVE away from such persons.