Another Question for LDS

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From reading the preceding posts by SirThomasMore and MelanieAnne I see a very close resemblance between Mormonism and Islam. Both use threats and violence to keep the “believers” in line.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
Really? Mormons use threats of violence to keep their members in line? This is news to me. Do you have any proof? I don’t think so.
 
I wholly agree; this keeps people in the fold and is the reason that it’s very hard for people to make the formal break form the church; many prefer to simply be “Jack Mormons,” LDS in name only.

I find that most Mormons have problems with the faith in one way or another, but it’s drilled into them in church, three hour Sunday school, family home night, monthly missionary visits, and the other church-sponsored activities and events.
I have never met anyone who has been shunned. In fact just the opposite. Usually when a member leaves the faith, there may be disappointment, but no shunning. In fact, it is against church policy to shun anyone. In fact, the message is that those who left the faith need more love than ever from their family and friends. This is official policy. Now of course, people are people and people react in different ways. But in no way is it lds church policy to shun people.

It is the same as within the catholic church. When someone who was catholic joins the lds church, the catholic family can shun that family member. But that is not catholic church policy either. People are people.
 
I have heard that during the Apostasy, Christ took the authority away from the earth and took the Priesthood from the earth.

That seems odd since the LDS believe that St. John never died and still walks the earth.

It also seems odd because the :LDS believe that the Three Nephites never died and still walk the earth.

If John was here then the Priesthood was here- No apostasy. If John lost his Priesthood, then how could he help confer it on Joseph?

Too many of these problems in the LDS Church
Also how does Peter take part in the ordinance of the laying on of hands to restore the Priesthood without a resurrected body?
I believe the D&C states that if a heavenly messenger does not have a resurrected body they cannot touch a mortal being.
According to LDS teaching in regards to the resurrection Peter wouldn’t have a resurrected body because he died after Christ was raised from the dead, so he wouldn’t receive his Resurrection until after the second coming of Jesus. I may be mis-informed if so let me know.

I never understood why the LDS believe St. John never died? It doesn’t say that anywhere in the scriptures. Then the priesthood was never fully taken from the Earth, and lets say there were a need for the restoration wouldn’t St. John then be the most “Senior” member of the quorum of the 12? Wouldn’t he then be the head of the Church? Wouldn’t the Three Nephites also be included into the quorum?
 
Yes…when I left the Church, I was shunned. I was also harrassed. I was told I was going to hell for THE sin against the Spirit. I got phone calls at all hours. Finally, some Mormons tried to kidnap my children. It was an ugly scene with a Mormon ,ending up in the hospital and police involved.

Ok, I’ll bite…why?
This is a little strange tom. First, mormons really have no concept of hell as traditional christianity does. In mormon belief Hell is rather empty so I doubt a mormon would say that you are going to hell.

If what you said actually happened to you…the law would have taken care of it since it is against the law. However, your story is very familiar as atticus finch. Are you both the same people?
 
This is a little strange tom. First, mormons really have no concept of hell as traditional christianity does. In mormon belief Hell is rather empty so I doubt a mormon would say that you are going to hell.

Well, that is what I was told. I was committing the one unforgiveable sin.

If what you said actually happened to you…the law would have taken care of it since it is against the law.

The law only takes its course IF someone is willing to press charges. I was not.

However, your story is very familiar as atticus finch. Are you both the same people?

Yes. A week ago yesterday, I changed my name and then posted that I had changed my name so nobody wouild think I was being sneaky. You must have missed that thread.
 
Also how does Peter take part in the ordinance of the laying on of hands to restore the Priesthood without a resurrected body?
I believe the D&C states that if a heavenly messenger does not have a resurrected body they cannot touch a mortal being.
According to LDS teaching in regards to the resurrection Peter wouldn’t have a resurrected body because he died after Christ was raised from the dead, so he wouldn’t receive his Resurrection until after the second coming of Jesus. I may be mis-informed if so let me know.

I never understood why the LDS believe St. John never died? It doesn’t say that anywhere in the scriptures. Then the priesthood was never fully taken from the Earth, and lets say there were a need for the restoration wouldn’t St. John then be the most “Senior” member of the quorum of the 12? Wouldn’t he then be the head of the Church? Wouldn’t the Three Nephites also be included into the quorum?
Very good points. Wouldn’t the Book of Mormon mention John?
 
Really? Mormons use threats of violence to keep their members in line? This is news to me. Do you have any proof? I don’t think so.
Its news to me Islam uses threats of violence to keep its members in line. Site your source. Where in the Koran does it teach violence to be acted upon a member in order to stay in line?
According to the LDS if it isn’t explicitly in the Scriptures then it isn’t doctrine. Please site where in the Koran it states violence is to be carried out on those wishing to leave the Islamic faith?

Besides the Mormon threat for leaving the faith has more Spiritual implications. Not doubting the stories of violence and harassment experienced by others because I too had such experiences. Maybe not an explicit command from the LDS church but it is certainly intriguing the common denominator for most peoples leaving the LDS church is an ere of harassment and in some cases violence.
 
Its news to me Islam uses threats of violence to keep its members in line. Site your source. Where in the Koran does it teach violence to be acted upon a member in order to stay in line?
kdesiel - I don’t know if Islam uses threats of violence to keep its members in line, but there are several “scriptural” quotes regarding **infidels.
**They will be “rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection” (2:85).

“God’s curse be upon the infidels!” (2:89).

“They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]” (2:90).

“God is the enemy of the unbelievers” (2:98).

“They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter” (2:114).

“Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost” (2:122).

“[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate” (2:126).

“But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved” (2:162).

“They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire” (2:168).

“The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing” (2:172).

“How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism” (2:176).

“Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . *f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers”(2:190–93).

“They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God’s mercy” (2:217–18).

“Those that deny God’s revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge” (3:5).

“As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God’s judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire” (3:10).

“Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an evil resting place!’” (3:12).

“The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God’s revelations should know that swift is God’s reckoning” (3:19).

“Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense” (3:28).

“Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal” (3:118).

“If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels” (3:140).

“Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home” (3:149-51).

“Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.’ God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God’s forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass” (3:156).

“Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them” (3:178).

“Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place” (3:195–96).

“God has cursed them in their unbelief” (4:46).

“Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise” (4:55–56).

“God does not guide the unbelievers” (5:67).

“[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell” (5:86).

“[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn” (6:5).

“[T]hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds” (6:49).

“Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief” (6:70).

“If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers” (6:125).*
 
Its news to me Islam uses threats of violence to keep its members in line. Site your source. Where in the Koran does it teach violence to be acted upon a member in order to stay in line?
According to the LDS if it isn’t explicitly in the Scriptures then it isn’t doctrine. Please site where in the Koran it states violence is to be carried out on those wishing to leave the Islamic faith?

Besides the Mormon threat for leaving the faith has more Spiritual implications. Not doubting the stories of violence and harassment experienced by others because I too had such experiences. Maybe not an explicit command from the LDS church but it is certainly intriguing the common denominator for most peoples leaving the LDS church is an ere of harassment and in some cases violence.
I never said it. It was one of your catholic friends who compared mormons with muslims and violence. When someone leaves the catholic faith, it is a serious thing because one is separating from the mother church. Opus dei takes it very seriously.

Really, mormons use violence when a member leaves the faith? I have never read a news report about it. I think that your imagination is running wild. So what kind of violence is used and who is usually behind the violence? Where is the decision to use violence issued? Interesting to know. And how many mormons have been arrested for using violence against a wayward member? I haven’t read of one instance.
 
I never said it. It was one of your catholic friends who compared mormons with muslims and violence. When someone leaves the catholic faith, it is a serious thing because one is separating from the mother church. Opus dei takes it very seriously.

Really, mormons use violence when a member leaves the faith? I have never read a news report about it. I think that your imagination is running wild. So what kind of violence is used and who is usually behind the violence? Where is the decision to use violence issued? Interesting to know. And how many mormons have been arrested for using violence against a wayward member? I haven’t read of one instance.
Do you consider egging houses and rock-throwing violence?

Not sure about throwing eggs at houses, but throwing rocks at people would be a yes.
 
A concerted program of malicious gossip, some aspects of which were absolute untruths. Refusal to cooperate with the “apostate” in the workplace. Isolation in the community. Probable intent to make the victim think suicide was the only viable option.
 
Yes, we all know it is not the PUBLIC POLICY of any faith to use violence to keep members in line or as actions against apostates. What the posters have said here and on other numerous forums is that they have been treated badly by members by actions from simple uncomfortableness to more harassing actions. Yes these are people acting under their own direction (except for radical factions of islam or others) without the authority or direction of their leadership, but it does happen. The comments were regarding the frequency it has happened among Mormon apostates, myself included. It is sad, but it happens. This is where people who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit go astray. No matter what faith tradition one professes, it is not what God would have one do. Some claim it is faith inspired or even Biblically directed. Ie, the Church of Christ (not sure which faction or the whole) has a practice of “withdrawing from” people who are not in line, even those in their own family. They cannot be around them, even to eat dinner. They back it up with scripture to boot.
 
I never said it. It was one of your catholic friends who compared mormons with muslims and violence. When someone leaves the catholic faith, it is a serious thing because one is separating from the mother church. Opus dei takes it very seriously.

Really, mormons use violence when a member leaves the faith? I have never read a news report about it. I think that your imagination is running wild. So what kind of violence is used and who is usually behind the violence? Where is the decision to use violence issued? Interesting to know. And how many mormons have been arrested for using violence against a wayward member? I haven’t read of one instance.
Ha ha ha… “my imagination is running wild.” Very nice response. If we can’t stand our ground we just undermine other peoples experiences is that it?

I could understand saying something like “your imagination is running wild.” had I been the only member on this board to say such a thing regarding Mormons and their tendancy to harass, intimidate, and ostricize former members of the church. The fact is you have quite a few “former” members claiming similar experiences. I guess all of us have our “Imaginations running wild.” ey?

The Mormon Church doesn’t explicitly say to intimidate those “Saints” who choose to leave. However on many…MANY occasions some of which had been testified here on this board by people who’ve been through such experiences, members have taken it upon themselves to lash out.

For a Coward who sits on the fence of “I’m Mormon and Catholic” who doesn’t take a solid stand for one cause or the other it doesn’t surprise me you would make such a statement. Remember what the Saviour says about “Luke Warm” diciples and followers.

I now remember why you’re worthy of the “Ignore Button.”

God Bless and Good Day.
 
Ha ha ha… “my imagination is running wild.” Very nice response. If we can’t stand our ground we just undermine other peoples experiences is that it?

I could understand saying something like “your imagination is running wild.” had I been the only member on this board to say such a thing regarding Mormons and their tendancy to harass, intimidate, and ostricize former members of the church. The fact is you have quite a few “former” members claiming similar experiences. I guess all of us have our “Imaginations running wild.” ey?

The Mormon Church doesn’t explicitly say to intimidate those “Saints” who choose to leave. However on many…MANY occasions some of which had been testified here on this board by people who’ve been through such experiences, members have taken it upon themselves to lash out.

For a Coward who sits on the fence of “I’m Mormon and Catholic” who doesn’t take a solid stand for one cause or the other it doesn’t surprise me you would make such a statement. Remember what the Saviour says about “Luke Warm” diciples and followers.

I now remember why you’re worthy of the “Ignore Button.”

God Bless and Good Day.
I have been around mormons for over 30 years and I have never seen it happen. In fact, just the opposite. I have seen parents treat their children well, especially those who have left the lds faith. So, I don’t have the experience you claim occurs.

Now it is true, I don’t take doctrine that seriously. But I do defend the lds faith against people who are out to get the faith. I see nothing wrong with mormonism. I see people trying to live christian lives, obey god’s commandments, and do good. That is what I see.

I haven’t seen or heard of mormons using violence. I would expect it to make the news especially if it happens often. But I have heard people say many times, that mormons are good people.

So, if you and others wish to spread the idea that mormons are violent people, who harrass people fine. You can do it. 🙂
 
Do you consider egging houses and rock-throwing violence?

Not sure about throwing eggs at houses, but throwing rocks at people would be a yes.
I have no idea. I have seen no news reports of mormons throwing rocks at people’s houses. I must have missed it. Nor do I know of any mormons who throw rocks at people’s houses. What I do see is that when someone leaves the faith, they leave. No problem at all. No one bothers and I really don’t think that anyone cares. And I also know, that if someone doesn’t want a hometeacher the hometeacher no longer bothers with that person.

Life is too stressful to be bothered. That is my obversation.
 
This is a little strange tom. First, mormons really have no concept of hell as traditional christianity does. In mormon belief Hell is rather empty so I doubt a mormon would say that you are going to hell.
Moroni said it: (Moroni 8:13)

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

Here is another from Moroni, same chapter, verse 14

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
 
A concerted program of malicious gossip, some aspects of which were absolute untruths. Refusal to cooperate with the “apostate” in the workplace. Isolation in the community. Probable intent to make the victim think suicide was the only viable option.
Really? I haven’t seen this happen also. Most mormons live outside the mormon corridor. And most mormons do not work with other mormons. But it was a great try at a generalization. And most mormons do not live in mormon communities.

However, I think that the jews have a policy of shunning family members…care to be critical of them?
 
Ha ha ha… “my imagination is running wild.” Very nice response. If we can’t stand our ground we just undermine other peoples experiences is that it?

I could understand saying something like “your imagination is running wild.” had I been the only member on this board to say such a thing regarding Mormons and their tendancy to harass, intimidate, and ostricize former members of the church. The fact is you have quite a few “former” members claiming similar experiences. I guess all of us have our “Imaginations running wild.” ey?

The Mormon Church doesn’t explicitly say to intimidate those “Saints” who choose to leave. However on many…MANY occasions some of which had been testified here on this board by people who’ve been through such experiences, members have taken it upon themselves to lash out.

For a Coward who sits on the fence of “I’m Mormon and Catholic” who doesn’t take a solid stand for one cause or the other it doesn’t surprise me you would make such a statement. Remember what the Saviour says about “Luke Warm” diciples and followers.

I now remember why you’re worthy of the “Ignore Button.”

God Bless and Good Day.
Well, you’re entirely correct in your conclusion. 🙂

But to address some points of your post ~

Numerous persons have posted to this forum about their experience of being “shunned” after they left the Mormon Church. Is it official policy? Maybe not, at least not in the sense of something being written down, but then why would such a thing happen to so many people over a widely scattered geographical area such as the entire United States and even beyond? Are we to conclude that ALL their so-called “friends” were not friends at all but were merely posing as friends and THAT’S why they deserted them after they left the church? Really? That’s more credible?

Specifically regarding WhyMe ~ he continues to claim to be both Mormon and Catholic, a state of faith that cannot exist without betraying 2 faiths. I cannot find it within me to respect that position. I would respect someone more if they adopted one or another, but not both.

But if you ask WhyMe if he has talked about his situation with either his Catholic priest or his Mormon bishop, he won’t answer you. I’ve tried. I decided a long time ago to view WhyMe as a Mormon apologist who was once Catholic and has adopted this Mormon/Catholic pose as a means to proselytize on this board and stay “under the radar” of the moderators. Everyone has to make their own assessment. This was mine, and then I put him on ignore because, in my opinion, I could not learn anything useful from dialog from a person who would portray themselves this way.
 
Moroni said it: (Moroni 8:13)

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

Here is another from Moroni, same chapter, verse 14

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
You need to learn about the mormon faith. In the mormon faith, hell is rather empty. People generally go to one of the three kingdoms. Now if one does deny the holy ghost, well, that is a serious sin. But again it all depends on how much knowledge that person has.

en.fairmormon.org/Hell
 
Specifically regarding WhyMe ~ he continues to claim to be both Mormon and Catholic, a state of faith that cannot exist without betraying 2 faiths. I cannot find it within me to respect that position. I would respect someone more if they adopted one or another, but not both.

But if you ask WhyMe if he has talked about his situation with either his Catholic priest or his Mormon bishop, he won’t answer you. I’ve tried. I decided a long time ago to view WhyMe as a Mormon apologist who was once Catholic and has adopted this Mormon/Catholic pose as a means to proselytize on this board and stay “under the radar” of the moderators. Everyone has to make their own assessment. This was mine, and then I put him on ignore because, in my opinion, I could not learn anything useful from dialog from a person who would portray themselves this way.
I don’t really care about doctrine. Doctrine will be meaningless when one is judged. I have seen people battle it out on the mormon threads over doctrine. I find it amazing. The bible is full of interpretations, each sect, whether catholic, protestant, mormon, JW, SDA claim to know the exact meaning of the scripture and an argument ensues. I see no point in such arguments, except in taking a headache pill.

However, since the lds church is maligned on this forum, I defend it. I have had over 30 years experience among mormons and I don’t see an evil people, nor do I see an evil religion. If exmormons wish to portray the lds faith as such, I will defend it. It is as simple as that.

And yes, when I described myself as mormon and catholic, I was mocked, bashed, insulted, called a liar etc by the good christian catholics on this forum. Fortunately such insulting posters are no mirror into the catholic church. Just a reflection of their own souls.

Now I am happy go lucky. Happy and lucky to have both mormon and catholic friends who do not judge.
 
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