Another Question for LDS

[why_me]

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I only use Mormon sources. I also subscribe to FAIR, FARMS, and the Nephi Project.

But you’re right on one account: if there’s two churches, both can’t be correct. And since we know what the LDS opinion is of itself, we thus establish your position about everyone else.

But I see you’ve dodged the question by trying to turn it back on me. If Smith wrote the BOM by himself, and Mormons generations later build upon it and believe in it, how can you worship the same God that Christians do?

Personally, I see the church of the devil as all institutions that take a person away from god. And at this moment it isn’t the catholic church. But I can see the stock market and materialism and greed as being a part of the church of the devil. And the catholic church as also warned against materialism and greed because they can both can be godless.

It hasn’t been proven that Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon himself. In fact, it is highly unlikely. No manucript was ever seen in his hand…no ink stains from feathered pens…it would take a long time to write such a book with a feathered pen. And the rough drafts involved would be enormous. Someone would have seen him…since he lived in a small house and was busy doing his work on the farm and money digging. And his wife Emma said that he could not have written that book without her knowing it. And she believed in the book of mormon, teaching her children from it after her husband was murdered.

 

[Returning_Home]

I think that there are pieces of evidence but nothing conclusive. Likewise for the bible. I don’t see any evidence for Jesus being the son of god outside the bible. I hope that someday that something will be found that would collaborate the biblical new testament about the life of Jesus. But so far, there is none.

I think that the lds church has reconciled itself with polygamy. It was a practice that had its moment and it is moment is not for today.

Here is one example of a true prophecy that happened:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/Civil_War

And here is something more general:

lightplanet.com/mormons/people/joseph_smith/prophesies.html

It’s funny how mercurial Moromon apologists tend to be: when confronted on any particular matter, you instantly seek to cast doubt on everyone else instead of addressing the issue at hand. Is your evidence that flimsy?

So you’re saying the ‘new and everlasting’ doesn’t actually mean everlasting? Why does God roll over and play dead in the face of the laws of mere mortal man?

The Civil War prophesy? Is that the best you have?

The fact that a civil war was possible was possible in Smith’s day was common knowledge, given the agitation between the northern and southern states.

South Carolina was the most obstinate and passed a tariff nullification on Nov 24, 1832.Smith’s revelation came a convenient month later on Dec 25, 1832. The Mormon newpaper, ‘Evening and Morning Star’ even published an article called ‘Rebellion in South Carolina,’ (Jan 1833) showing that this possibility wasn’t divine at all.

Where is the ‘full end of nations’ spoken of in verse six? You might say that we’re somewhere between verses four and five (four mentions slaves and they were emancipated in 1862, so it must be after that).

I would then ask why we have no mention of the Spanish-American War, the Great War, the Spanish Civil War, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the proxy war between the US and Russia in Afghanistan, or the Gulf Wars.

That doesn’t make sense because this ‘revelation’ is only six verses and some 300 words whereas Revelation is 22 chapters covering 25 pages.

This one is a big fat fail.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

This is true. And also in momon understanding, polygamy was a test of obedience. It was very difficult for both men and for women. But they looked at it as a commandment from god. And not all mormons were polygamists. It was something that a person was called to do.

That sounds similar to the Catholic’s position on celibacy with priests if I’ve understood you correctly.

 

[why_me]

Incorrect; Solomon’s polygamy bears exactly no resemblence to Smith’s. D&C 132:4 clearly states that polygamy and temple marriage (two parts of ‘celestial marriage’) are a ‘new and everlasting covenant.’ In Mormonism, ‘new and everlasting’ actually only means 47 years because the church gave up polygamy in light of the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887, yet still continued to practice it until 1904.

In fact, the church was actively practicing polygamy when the old D&C 101 was current, and continued to do so although it wasn’t actually permitted until D&C 132 was added in 1876. At that point, the old section 101 denouncing polygamy was quietly dropped.

whymormonism.org/mormon_polygamy

I think that you will find some answers here. Hard to kick out your plural wives just because a policy was changed because of changes in US law.

 

[Returning_Home]

Personally, I see the church of the devil as all institutions that take a person away from god. And at this moment it isn’t the catholic church. But I can see the stock market and materialism and greed as being a part of the church of the devil. And the catholic church as also warned against materialism and greed because they can both can be godless.

It hasn’t been proven that Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon himself. In fact, it is highly unlikely. No manucript was ever seen in his hand…no ink stains from feathered pens…it would take a long time to write such a book with a feathered pen. And the rough drafts involved would be enormous. Someone would have seen him…since he lived in a small house and was busy doing his work on the farm and money digging. And his wife Emma said that he could not have written that book without her knowing it. And she believed in the book of mormon, teaching her children from it after her husband was murdered.

You’re dodging the point. The BOM is very clear in its assertions because Smith was supposedly told by God not to join any church because they were all an abomination before him. If all of the churches on earth at the time were an abomination and they teach the same things now, how do they cease to be so in the eyes of God?

You forgot to mention that Emma had problems with her husband being a prophet because she taught her children that Smith never taught or practiced polygamy. In fact, Joseph Smith III even went on a mission to Utah and tried to convince the polygamous Mormons that. Silly, isn’t it?

I’ll send you a PM, too.

 

[why_me]

That sounds similar to the Catholic’s position on celibacy with priests if I’ve understood you correctly.

Maybe so. Certainly celibacy tested the obedience of those professing to be priests. And it still does. There is much misunderstanding about polygamy even by mormons. It also had to do with raising a righteous seed. In fact, many mormons in Utah are here today because their ancestors practiced polygamy. And many are grateful for it.

Many catholic on the mormon threads, equate polygamy with lust. Hardly. Nothing will kill the libido more for men than being married to several women. It is a real killer for sure.

 

[Returning_Home]

whymormonism.org/mormon_polygamy

I think that you will find some answers here. Hard to kick out your plural wives just because a policy was changed because of changes in US law.

The issue at hand is that the church, supposedly lead by God, changed its standing on polygamy, yet the prophet, who speaks for God Almighty, didn’t bother to comply.

Why?

What you don’t understand is that the church wanted to keep its property and its people out of prison, as well as eventaully attaining statehood. It could do none of the above while practicing polyamy, and yet Smith did anyway. How could he be the mouthpiece of God and not understand something so simple?

From the link you gave me: “The Mormon Church does not endorse breaking the law, and polygamy was ruled illegal that more than a hundred years ago. Also, this practice is only considered righteous behavior when the Lord Himself inaugurates the practice. When He forbids it, then it is sinful.”

So Joseph F .Smith didn’t get this memo?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Incorrect; Solomon’s polygamy bears exactly no resemblence to Smith’s. D&C 132:4 clearly states that polygamy and temple marriage (two parts of ‘celestial marriage’) are a ‘new and everlasting covenant.’ In Mormonism, ‘new and everlasting’ actually only means 47 years because the church gave up polygamy in light of the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887, yet still continued to practice it until 1904.

In fact, the church was actively practicing polygamy when the old D&C 101 was current, and continued to do so although it wasn’t actually permitted until D&C 132 was added in 1876. At that point, the old section 101 denouncing polygamy was quietly dropped.

The Edmunds-Tucker Act gave the government the ability to seize the church property and put polygamous members in prison, both of which it did. On the eve of the temples being seized, Wilford Woodruff had a convenient revelation that God suddenly didn’t want the church to be polygamous and wrote the Manifesto, which discountinued the practice.

Curiously, the next prophet, Joseph F. Smith, was plead guilty to polygamy in 1904 as he’d fathered at least 11 children after the 1890 Manifesto. If the rules don’t apply to even the prophet of the church, to whom do they apply?

So the difference is that Solomon was at least a consistent polygamist while Smith was not?

 

[Returning_Home]

So the difference is that Solomon was at least a consistent polygamist while Smith was not?

No, Smith lied about it. The church said that it did not practice polygamy but actually it did. It later acknowledged the practice of polygamy and did so openly for a while until it renounced the practice, during which time it practiced it anyway, sending members outside the US to get married.

Monogamy is the Biblical ideal of marriage, not polygamy, but it was tolerated because of the hardness of people’s sinful hearts. It was also a form of social welfare and a social custom. Abraham’s wife, Sarah couldn’t conceive and it was tradition that if a wife couldn’t bear children, she provide someone who could, usually a servant, and that was Hagar. God permitted Sarah to become pregnant later, fulfilling his promise to Abraham that his seed would number greater than the stars.

 

[why_me]

I’ll send you a PM, too.

These are interesting sites. The first site is pretty extensive. After reading it, we can safely assume that Joseph Smith did not write the book of mormon. It was beyond his reach when he was a young man.

greaterthings.com/Parallels/Book_of_Mormon_and_Bible/index.html

greaterthings.com/Books/Vision/Opening/Lehite-Israelite_history-PAR.htm

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Bible_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

 

[Returning_Home]

Maybe so. Certainly celibacy tested the obedience of those professing to be priests. And it still does. There is much misunderstanding about polygamy even by mormons. It also had to do with raising a righteous seed. In fact, many mormons in Utah are here today because their ancestors practiced polygamy. And many are grateful for it.

Many catholic on the mormon threads, equate polygamy with lust. Hardly. Nothing will kill the libido more for men than being married to several women. It is a real killer for sure.

Polygamy has everything to do with lust in this context. Many cults end up practicing polygamy and Smith was no exception, having some 33 wives and Brigham Young somewhere north of 44. In fact, it was even taught that Jesus and the apostles were persecuted and crucified for being polygamists. This was recinded when the church renounced polygamy.

 

[Returning_Home]

These are interesting sites. The first site is pretty extensive. After reading it, we can safely assume that Joseph Smith did not write the book of mormon. It was beyond his reach when was a young man.

greaterthings.com/Parallels/Book_of_Mormon_and_Bible/index.html

greaterthings.com/Books/Vision/Opening/Lehite-Israelite_history-PAR.htm

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Bible_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

Since Smith, by his own admission, studied the Bible from the age of 12, he had 13 years to become familiar with its contents and structure. We also know that he was literate, as his letters clearly show. And in her biography, Lucy Mack Smith said that he had a vibrant imagination, describing the people who lived on the continent as if he’d lived with them his entire life. This was years before the BOM was printed.

 

[why_me]

Polygamy has everything to do with lust in this context. Many cults end up practicing polygamy and Smith was no exception, having some 33 wives and Brigham Young somewhere north of 44.

Joseph Smih was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. He was sealed to one woman in the 1830’s. He was murdered in 1844. Why marry so many women in that two year period? Because of lust? No man can hide his lust from any women. These women would have felt his lust and bolted. Also, some of the women refused his offer. It was only after praying about the principle and receiving a strong spiritual witness that they consented to be a plural wife.

 

[why_me]

. We also know that he was literate, as his letters clearly show. And in her biography, Lucy Mack Smith said that he had a vibrant imagination, describing the people who lived on the continent as if he’d lived with them his entire life. This was years before the BOM was printed.

He doesn’t sound to literate to me when I read this letter to his wife from jail. But you can be the judge:

lds.org/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=6c8fd2efbece4010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&exhibit=841808961ece401008961ece401059340c0a____

You can read many of his letters on that site.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

He doesn’t sound to literate to me when I read this letter to his wife from jail. But you can be the judge:

lds.org/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=6c8fd2efbece4010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&exhibit=841808961ece401008961ece401059340c0a____

You can read many of his letters on that site.

It is my understanding that Mormons believe that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from gold plates.

1. Do you believe what is written in the Book of Mormon to be authoritative and binding upon all Mormons?
2. How can Smith translated but not write it down? In order for the translation to be known and later used in the printing press, Joseph Smith must have wrote something down…

 

[Jerusha]

According to Mormon accounts, for much of it, Joseph did the translation out loud as he read it, and his friends wrote it down. Recently, a study was done which uses samples of the writing of various people. They had a lot of difficulty finding Samples of JS Jr.'s writing, as he used scribes throughout his life. They finally found enough, and reports are that it was pretty bad.

Most of it (other than what was copied from the Bible), was written by Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding. JS Jr.'s contributions were minor, and just what one might expect given what we know of his personality.

 

[zerinus]

It is my understanding that Mormons believe that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from gold plates.

That is correct—by the gift and power of God.

1. Do you believe what is written in the Book of Mormon to be authoritative and binding upon all Mormons?

He is not a Mormon, but I am, and from my point of view the answer to that question is yes.

1. How can Smith translated but not write it down? In order for the translation to be known and later used in the printing press, Joseph Smith must have wrote something down…

He dictated it, while others acted as his scribes to write it down. As far as I know he didn’t write down any of it himself.

 

[Jerusha]

Oh, BTW, Solomon Spalding died in 1816. It was a stolen manuscript, which was apparently later destroyed by the LDS. Oral tradition among non-Mormons in the Nauvoo area confirms the “Spalding Theory”. Evidently, as things deteriorated, people (probably and particularly Sidney Rigdon) began talking about it. Joseph wanted Rigdon’s daughter as a plural wife, and the girl and her father refused.

 

[LongJourney]

Jerusha, you assume that the entire situation can be blamed on Rigdon? Isn’t that a bit too much? I mean, after all, the Nauvoo Expositor did publish an expose about polygamy. And Joseph had his men destroy that press, which was the reason why he was in jail. You are entirely too simplistic.


Sheesh!!!

 

[Jerusha]

I’m outta here! A newbie challenges me with a strawman. I’ve had enough of this forum.