Another Question for LDS

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lax16 said:
I thought LDS had to provide their tax return info to the church to verify income?
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barnes -

I asked the wife of my friend - she said that they are on the honor system when it comes to paying their 10%.
 
lax16 said:
barnes -

I asked the wife of my friend - she said that they are on the honor system when it comes to paying their 10%.
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Here is what I never liked about LDS tithing.

To get to the highest level of heaven, you must go to the temple
to get to the temple, you MUST pay your tithing. If you do not pay your tithing, you can;t go to the temple
So, if you do not pay your tithing, you can’t get to the highest level of heaven

So, in essence, you must pay your way to heaven
 
SirThomasMore said:
Here is what I never liked about LDS tithing.

To get to the highest level of heaven, you must go to the temple
to get to the temple, you MUST pay your tithing. If you do not pay your tithing, you can;t go to the temple
So, if you do not pay your tithing, you can’t get to the highest level of heaven

So, in essence, you must pay your way to heaven
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Agreed! 👍
 
SirThomasMore said:
Here is what I never liked about LDS tithing.

To get to the highest level of heaven, you must go to the temple
to get to the temple, you MUST pay your tithing. If you do not pay your tithing, you can;t go to the temple
So, if you do not pay your tithing, you can’t get to the highest level of heaven

So, in essence, you must pay your way to heaven
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Isn’t it the same for the Word of Wisdom too? That is one of the many things I struggled with, I couldn’t get a temple recommend because I didn’t believe or follow in the WoW.

I didn’t understand that just because someone drank a cup of tea or coffee made them “unworthy” to enter the highest kingdom… My grandma and my Godfather, are two of the must righteous people I know, go to church everyday and try to be as “Christ like” as they could be, but because they enjoy a cup of coffee in the morning or a cup of tea when they’re sick, they are not good enough to enter the kingdom of heaven, based on the mormon beliefs.
 
paulp1002 said:
Isn’t it the same for the Word of Wisdom too? That is one of the many things I struggled with, I couldn’t get a temple recommend because I didn’t believe or follow in the WoW.

I didn’t understand that just because someone drank a cup of tea or coffee made them “unworthy” to enter the highest kingdom… My grandma and my Godfather, are two of the must righteous people I know, go to church everyday and try to be as “Christ like” as they could be, but because they enjoy a cup of coffee in the morning or a cup of tea when they’re sick, they are not good enough to enter the kingdom of heaven, based on the mormon beliefs.
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Funny thing, the Word of Wisdom never mentioned coffee. It mentioned hot drinks. So, you would be in violaiton if you drank hot milk, hot chocolate, etc. You can get a temple rec if you drink a coke, but not coffee. I always found that odd
 
SirThomasMore said:
Jesus said, essentially, to do what you do (like tithing) in private. How private can it be if you are asked about it?
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I asked my friend if the 10% included Time, Talent and Treasure and she said no, just 10% of salary.

I thought tithing also meant (as our church bulletin says) giving of one’s time, talent, and treasure, not just one of these.

I know for some families it has been helpful to donate time to church fundraisers etc when they don’t have much money to give.

Are other parishes similar?
 
paulp1002 said:
Isn’t it the same for the Word of Wisdom too? That is one of the many things I struggled with, I couldn’t get a temple recommend because I didn’t believe or follow in the WoW.

I didn’t understand that just because someone drank a cup of tea or coffee made them “unworthy” to enter the highest kingdom… My grandma and my Godfather, are two of the must righteous people I know, go to church everyday and try to be as “Christ like” as they could be, but because they enjoy a cup of coffee in the morning or a cup of tea when they’re sick, they are not good enough to enter the kingdom of heaven, based on the mormon beliefs.
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And then there are the people that bend the “rules”. The Word of Wisdom forbids the use of “hot drinks”, which has been interpreted to refer to coffee and tea. And supposedly they are considered harmful because of the caffeine content. Many Mormons that I am personally acquainted with give their own interpretation to what is acceptable and still remain within the bounds of the Word of Wisdom.

Just as a few examples, I have personally witnessed the following, all by people who hold Temple Recommends so they have to have affirmed that they obey the Word of Wisdom:
  1. Drinking iced tea (after all, it’s not “hot”, so it’s OK)
  2. Drinking all kinds of sodas that are loaded with caffeine (not a hot drink, so it’s OK) (the local Stake President would save time if he would just hook up an IV for his Diet Coke! 😉 )
  3. Drinking decaffeinated hot tea (it may be hot, but since it’s decaffeinated, it’s OK)
  4. Drinking many different types of hot drinks that are not coffee or tea (they may be hot, but since they’re not coffee or tea, they’re OK)
It would make more sense if there was at least some consistency, but there doesn’t seem to be.
 
lax16 said:
I asked my friend if the 10% included Time, Talent and Treasure and she said no, just 10% of salary.

I thought tithing also meant (as our church bulletin says) giving of one’s time, talent, and treasure, not just one of these.

I know for some families it has been helpful to donate time to church fundraisers etc when they don’t have much money to give.

Are other parishes similar?
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If you talk to Mormons about tithing, you get different answers.

I have heard that you give 10% of your gross
I have heard you give 10% of your net
I have heard you give 10% of your increase (that was from G.B. Hinkley) Your increase would 10% of what you have left over after paying all your bills.

So, it is pretty wide open
 
lax16 said:
Are you sure?

inephi.com/1.htm
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I was always told that Smith dictated the Book of Mormon and someone else wrote it down. Smith was also concealed from the scribe during this process ~ behind a screen or something similar.

I never heard WHY Smith was hidden from the scribe’s view. I always thought it might strike someone as rather odd that Smith was “translating” the Book of Mormon using magic glowing rocks held in the bottom of his hat, but it was never confirmed to me whether that was why Smith was hidden from view, or whether it was for some other reason,
 
I have to say that one made me laugh. I saw the same thing when I was LDS, I tried to live by the WoW as best as I could by not drinking hot drinks OR caffinated drinks just to be sure. But most of my friends and other students at BYU drank red bull amd rock star energy drinks like it was going out of style. Jeez.
 
MelanieAnne said:
And then there are the people that bend the “rules”. The Word of Wisdom forbids the use of “hot drinks”, which has been interpreted to refer to coffee and tea. And supposedly they are considered harmful because of the caffeine content. Many Mormons that I am personally acquainted with give their own interpretation to what is acceptable and still remain within the bounds of the Word of Wisdom.

Just as a few examples, I have personally witnessed the following, all by people who hold Temple Recommends so they have to have affirmed that they obey the Word of Wisdom:
  1. Drinking iced tea (after all, it’s not “hot”, so it’s OK)
  2. Drinking all kinds of sodas that are loaded with caffeine (not a hot drink, so it’s OK) (the local Stake President would save time if he would just hook up an IV for his Diet Coke! 😉 )
  3. Drinking decaffeinated hot tea (it may be hot, but since it’s decaffeinated, it’s OK)
  4. Drinking many different types of hot drinks that are not coffee or tea (they may be hot, but since they’re not coffee or tea, they’re OK)
It would make more sense if there was at least some consistency, but there doesn’t seem to be.
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I remember going to a Ward Breakfast just before I left the Church. I took a tumbler of coffee with me because I like a good cup of coffee in the morning. Well the Elders Quorum President saw I was drinking coffee and proceeded to lecture me on the hazards of Coffee and how it violated the Word of Wisdom all the while he was drinking a Liter of Mountain Dew. Mountain Dew at 8am by the liter.
Needless to say some of the scenario’s get pretty hilarious. I can honestly say I’ve experienced 4 out of 4 of the conversations you’ve listed above.
 
Returning_Home said:
No, Smith lied about it. The church said that it did not practice polygamy but actually it did. It later acknowledged the practice of polygamy and did so openly for a while until it renounced the practice, during which time it practiced it anyway, sending members outside the US to get married.

Monogamy is the Biblical ideal of marriage, not polygamy, but it was tolerated because of the hardness of people’s sinful hearts. It was also a form of social welfare and a social custom. Abraham’s wife, Sarah couldn’t conceive and it was tradition that if a wife couldn’t bear children, she provide someone who could, usually a servant, and that was Hagar. God permitted Sarah to become pregnant later, fulfilling his promise to Abraham that his seed would number greater than the stars.
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Do you have any references from the Bible where it clearly states the is an absolute ideal for monogamy in marriage? Please provide the chapter and verse. Just so you know, there is not one, but it will be good to review your interpretation.

In 1890 a Manifesto was issued stating that the Utah woudl observe the laws of the land, in this case, the USA. This is not surprising since the 12th Article of Faith is clear about LDS beliefs: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” Once it was clear that the persecution of LDS Church would remain, though the saints had already moved four times en masse, they chose to stop plural marriage. For qualification, a Manifesto is not the equivalent of a Revelation. The prophet stated that the Lord showed him in vision what would happen to the people if they did not observe the laws the land and the prophet then chose to issue the Manifesto. Speaking out of ignorance and without studying the issue first. For goodness sakes, just read the bloody documents. This is difficult for literate people.

The Church stated clearly it did not practice spiritual wifery. The correct term of what the Church practiced is polygny. What the Church never denied was plural marriage. These are not equivalent terms. It is similar to the difference bewteen montheism, polytheism, and henotheism.

So now we get to pick what is “culture” for the prophets of God and what was not. That is a unique manner of interpreting scripture. Were they prophets or were they not. The Old Testament mentions plural marriage as an **acceptable **variation for the Hebrews, and many of the Abrahamic prophets and patriarchs had multiple wives, including Lamech, Abraham, Jacob, Esau, Gideon, Saul, David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Elkanah, Ashur, Abijah and Jehoiada. Some interpretations also suggest Moses had a second wife in Tharbis. Again, were this marriage form was accept of God for his prophets and leaders. Do we accept the Bible or not?

The best we can say is that the Lord has sanctioned several types of marriage: monogamy, polygny, and celibacy where the individual commits his relationship to God.

I look forward to your answers from above.
 
MelanieAnne said:
And then there are the people that bend the “rules”. The Word of Wisdom forbids the use of “hot drinks”, which has been interpreted to refer to coffee and tea. And supposedly they are considered harmful because of the caffeine content. Many Mormons that I am personally acquainted with give their own interpretation to what is acceptable and still remain within the bounds of the Word of Wisdom.

Just as a few examples, I have personally witnessed the following, all by people who hold Temple Recommends so they have to have affirmed that they obey the Word of Wisdom:
  1. Drinking iced tea (after all, it’s not “hot”, so it’s OK)
  2. Drinking all kinds of sodas that are loaded with caffeine (not a hot drink, so it’s OK) (the local Stake President would save time if he would just hook up an IV for his Diet Coke! 😉 )
  3. Drinking decaffeinated hot tea (it may be hot, but since it’s decaffeinated, it’s OK)
  4. Drinking many different types of hot drinks that are not coffee or tea (they may be hot, but since they’re not coffee or tea, they’re OK)
It would make more sense if there was at least some consistency, but there doesn’t seem to be.
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-We have an LDS friend who would drink Mt. Dew by the liter -right out of bottle.
-Another who drinks hot herbal tea because she disagrees there can be anything wrong with herbal tea.
-A friend who will have a cup of hot tea waiting for me at a restaurant because he doesn’t want me ordering coffee
-This same friend became angry when I ordered a cup of decaf with my dessert yet he drinks iced tea and diet coke (both have caffeine)
-I’ve been to LDS church events where they served Tang with sugar cookies (I guess sugar is okay)
-Another who drank so much Mt. Dew in the morning that he put on 40 lbs over time

I can’t understand how soda and sugary drinks are a more healthy option.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
My answer is that the Sprit speaks to us, yes, all of us who seek Him, but we can fully understand Him with a properly formed faith. If we search on our own, the Holy Spirit may act as a guide, but ultimately we are a guide without a map. We may be led somewhere that appears to be right based on the guide’s description, but without the map we cannot know for sure; we only know that we’re somewhere that seems right.

The Catholic Church is that map. I believe that reason and objective analysis at historical documents as well as the Bible would lead us to believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Jesus, and that by listening to its interpretation of events we get the FULLNESS of truth.

Make sense? I think so.
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Marc, your statement above sounds good to me, but I would replace the Catholic Church with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are back to square one. I believe God directs us to the Church where he will accomplish his will. Each church has varying degrees that their members have chosen to live by. While there is a wealth of truth in the Catholic Church specifically, I continue to believe that the fulness of truth is found in the LDS Church. I am sure you believe the same things about the Catholic Church that I do about my church. In ecumenical conversations we begin by respecting the other, asking honest questions to learn about the other in order to gain a better understanding. But if questions are not honest, then it is not an ecumenical conversation and we devolve into something unreflective of the example set by Jesus.
 
Returning_Home said:
Thank you, Melanie! I attend two different RC churches, one old that far away and one that’s much newer, but a lot closer. The older one reminds me a lot of the one I attended as a kid, complete with a school attached to it.

You are 110% correct about the receiving different answers to questions posed of the LDS; the church has perfected the art of saying one thing and meaning something different. The public only gets what position they want us to have, whereas the actual congregation gets the real article. The best way to overcome this, I find, is by using their own works.

For example, they’ll tell you that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus as separate and distinct individuals but what they won’t tell you (either because they don’t want you to know or because they don’t know themselves) is that it took at least four other versions of this miraculous event to get to that point, and it was almost 20 years afterwards that said account was made known.

I jumped ahead a bit because I couldn’t find my own posts right away, but I see that he Mormons here are trying to redefine the apostacy, but their own works make it clear that the earth was devoid of the Word of God, of his true church between the death of the apostles and Joseph Smith’s Furst Vision. That’s the reason that they baptise the dead, because those people supposedly were alive at a time without the Gospel being on earth.
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I see the twisting of LDS positions continues. Please keep it up, the more you twist the doctrines of the LDS Church, the more doors open to our missiononaries, and the more converts enter the Church of Jesus Christ.

The only reason the LDS people perform baptisms for the dead as found in Holy Scripture, is to ensure that all those who never heard of Jesus Christ or never had an opportunity to be baptized by one having proper authority are given that chance. The deceased person then has the opportunity to accept the baptism or reject it on the other side. If it is rejected, then it is as if it was never done. However, if it is accepted than the doors of salvation are opened to them. We believe that baptism is a required ordinance (sacrament) for all.

Please keep up the conversation. You really don’t realize how effective you are in pushing converts into the LDS Church. Thank you.
 
barnesms said:
I see the twisting of LDS positions continues. Please keep it up, the more you twist the doctrines of the LDS Church, the more doors open to our missiononaries, and the more converts enter the Church of Jesus Christ.

The only reason the LDS people perform baptisms for the dead as found in Holy Scripture, is to ensure that all those who never heard of Jesus Christ or never had an opportunity to be baptized by one having proper authority are given that chance. The deceased person then has the opportunity to accept the baptism or reject it on the other side. If it is rejected, then it is as if it was never done. However, if it is accepted than the doors of salvation are opened to them. We believe that baptism is a required ordinance (sacrament) for all.

Please keep up the conversation. You really don’t realize how effective you are in pushing converts into the LDS Church. Thank you.
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Can you provide proof to the fact that more doors are opened to missionaries if someone allegedly (though I have not seen twisting here) twists LDS Doctrine?
 
why_me said:
He doesn’t sound to literate to me when I read this letter to his wife from jail. But you can be the judge:

lds.org/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=6c8fd2efbece4010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&exhibit=841808961ece401008961ece401059340c0a____

You can read many of his letters on that site. 🙂
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I’ve been reading the Joseph Smith Papers online. The man, while not formally well educated, was of at least average intelligence. I’d buy the books if they were cheaper. Once they go to paperback, I probably will.
 
SirThomasMore said:
Jesus said, essentially, to do what you do (like tithing) in private. How private can it be if you are asked about it?
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Jay Leno said that Americans want everyone to know about the good works we do anonymously. This seems strangely appropriate here.
 
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