Another Question for LDS

[Returning_Home]

Joseph Smih was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. He was sealed to one woman in the 1830’s. He was murdered in 1844. Why marry so many women in that two year period? Because of lust? No man can hide his lust from any women. These women would have felt his lust and bolted. Also, some of the women refused his offer. It was only after praying about the principle and receiving a strong spiritual witness that they consented to be a plural wife.

That’s correct and it brings up an interesting point; why did the church teach essentially Protestant theology until the 1840s? After all, it wasn’t until that point that the church started to teach the really un-Christian things such as men becoming gods, baptism for the dead, that God has a physical body, and so forth.

The reason is a major shift in Smith’s thought process. He may have had a break with reality, mental illness, or something else that isn’t documented. I happen to believe that it was at that point Smith finally succumbed to his own lies; he finally believed that he was what he claimed to be: a prophet of God.

No man can hide lust from women? Smith did a pretty good job of hiding it from Emma, going to so far as to send his brother, Hyrum, to give her the polygamy revelation because he was too cowardly to do it himself. And didn’t Emma once shove one of his other wives down the steps, causing her to miscarry?

I think you need to reread your own history.

 

[lax16]

So now we get to pick what is “culture” for the prophets of God and what was not. That is a unique manner of interpreting scripture. Were they prophets or were they not. The Old Testament mentions plural marriage as an **acceptable **variation for the Hebrews, and many of the Abrahamic prophets and patriarchs had multiple wives, including Lamech, Abraham, Jacob, Esau, Gideon, Saul, David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Elkanah, Ashur, Abijah and Jehoiada. Some interpretations also suggest Moses had a second wife in Tharbis. Again, were this marriage form was accept of God for his prophets and leaders. Do we accept the Bible or not?

The best we can say is that the Lord has sanctioned several types of marriage: monogamy, polygny, and celibacy where the individual commits his relationship to God.

I look forward to your answers from above.

The Jewish people have always believed that God has no body and has always existed.
They are the people of the Old Testament.
You are saying that JS is a prophet in the style of the OT yet teaches God has a body and is not eternal.

JS was a prophet of the OT only in the sense of polygamy.

 

[Returning_Home]

Oh, BTW, Solomon Spalding died in 1816. It was a stolen manuscript, which was apparently later destroyed by the LDS. Oral tradition among non-Mormons in the Nauvoo area confirms the “Spalding Theory”. Evidently, as things deteriorated, people (probably and particularly Sidney Rigdon) began talking about it. Joseph wanted Rigdon’s daughter as a plural wife, and the girl and her father refused.

This is a popular theory among ‘anti-Mormons,’ one of which I don’t believe. First, there’s no evidence that Rigdon and Spalding even knew each other (though one of Mark Hofman’s forgeries showed that they were aquainted through a land deed). Second, the notion that Indians were lost Israelites was one that common in Smith’s day so there’s no reason he couldn’t have come to believe that on his own.

 

[lax16]

No man can hide lust from women? Smith did a pretty good job of hiding it from Emma, going to so far as to send his brother, Hyrum, to give her the polygamy revelation because he was too cowardly to do it himself. And didn’t Emma once shove one of his other wives down the steps, causing her to miscarry?

I think you need to reread your own history.

Oh I hate to say it, but how well did Tiger Woods do this?
For how long? How many women? Paparazzi included.

 

[lax16]

This is a popular theory among ‘anti-Mormons,’ one of which I don’t believe. First, there’s no evidence that Rigdon and Spalding even knew each other (though one of Mark Hofman’s forgeries showed that they were aquainted through a land deed). Second, the notion that Indians were lost Israelites was one that common in Smith’s day so there’s no reason he couldn’t have come to believe that on his own.

There are many similarities to A View of the Hebrews by Rev. Ethan Smith though, don’t you think?

 

[Returning_Home]

Jerusha, you assume that the entire situation can be blamed on Rigdon? Isn’t that a bit too much? I mean, after all, the Nauvoo Expositor did publish an expose about polygamy. And Joseph had his men destroy that press, which was the reason why he was in jail. You are entirely too simplistic.


Sheesh!!!

You’re exactly right here. The time between the destruction of the press and Smith’s murder was only 21 or 22 days; one was the direct result of the other. And let’s not forget about the failed Kirtland bank, which was illegal from the start because the US wasn’t issuing any new charters at that time. Among those who killed Smith, I think it’s safe to say that there were people from both groups involved, people who wanted to exact their own brand of justice.

This, of course, doesn’t take into account the fact that Smith also killed men immediately before he was killed himself, thus disqualifying him from martyrdom.

 

[Returning_Home]

There are many similarities to A View of the Hebrews by Rev. Ethan Smith though, don’t you think?

That’s what I hear, but I haven’t read it so I can’t say from personal experience, but again, those were common notions in his day. Had VOTH stated something about Meso-American cities, my opinion might be different, but in reality, Smith made no mention of that until 1842, which was after he read John Lloyd Stephens’ books about the region. Up to that point, the events in the BOM were set in New England.

 

[Returning_Home]

Oh I hate to say it, but how well did Tiger Woods do this?
For how long? How many women? Paparazzi included.

Good example, but it seems they always get caught. Smith managed to hide his activities from Emma for while, but she caught him and Fanny Alger (I believe it was) making out in the barn long before she was given D&C 132 by Hyrum. The two were married in 1833.

According to my sources, most of Smith’s marriages did occur between April 1841 and November 1843. This jibes with my belief that Smith had a break with reality because mental illness can also trigger a spike in sexual behavior.

These 33 are just the ones were have documented; there may have been more or possibly far less formal sexual affairs between 1833 and 1841.

 

[LongJourney]

It might be worthwhile to read it. Here is an online link: olivercowdery.com/texts/ethn1823.htm

Here is an online link to a Solomon Spalding story. People like Jerusha claim that it has some resemblances to the BoM, but isn’t the one that JS and friends used.
solomonspalding.com/docs/rlds1885.htm

I can find some other links, later.

 

[paulp1002]

This is my opinion on how lust coincides with polygamy.

JS lusted after the women, but knew that he couldn’t have acted on all those desires because he would have been called out by his followers for breaking the Law of Chasity.

How does one get around this? A “revelation” from God.

Again just my opinion.

 

[LongJourney]

Here is an abstract for the article that Spaldingites claim is the ultimate proof of their theory.

solomonspalding.com/Lib/Jock2008.htm

It has been roundly criticized. Read it for yourself.

 

[LongJourney]

This is my opinion on how lust coincides with polygamy.

JS lusted after the women, but knew that he couldn’t have acted on all those desires because he would have been called out by his followers for breaking the Law of Chasity.

How does one get around this? A “revelation” from God.

Again just my opinion.

Actually, alcoholic spirits may have spoken to them.

 

[twopekinguys]

Thank you, Melanie! I attend two different RC churches, one old that far away and one that’s much newer, but a lot closer. The older one reminds me a lot of the one I attended as a kid, complete with a school attached to it.

You are 110% correct about the receiving different answers to questions posed of the LDS; the church has perfected the art of saying one thing and meaning something different. The public only gets what position they want us to have, whereas the actual congregation gets the real article. The best way to overcome this, I find, is by using their own works.

For example, they’ll tell you that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus as separate and distinct individuals but what they won’t tell you (either because they don’t want you to know or because they don’t know themselves) is that it took at least four other versions of this miraculous event to get to that point, and it was almost 20 years afterwards that said account was made known.

I jumped ahead a bit because I couldn’t find my own posts right away, but I see that he Mormons here are trying to redefine the apostacy, but their own works make it clear that the earth was devoid of the Word of God, of his true church between the death of the apostles and Joseph Smith’s Furst Vision. That’s the reason that they baptise the dead, because those people supposedly were alive at a time without the Gospel being on earth.

You are quite right. There are numerous versions of the “first vision”. All of which vary quite significantly.

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/firstvision.html

 

[why_me]

I’ve been reading the Joseph Smith Papers online. The man, while not formally well educated, was of at least average intelligence. I’d buy the books if they were cheaper. Once they go to paperback, I probably will.

We have very little of what Joseph Smith actually said or wrote. Much was lost as the mormons were pushed out from place to place. Not to mentioning the house burning by the mobs. So what we do have are words that he reportedly said…recorded by someone trusted. This creates problems of course. However, in the few letters that we have to his wife, we can see that he was not that well versed in penmanship. Actually, he hated writing and would rather have his secretary keep a journal for him.

Now I don’t know how much in the JSP is his actualy writings. But it is good to remember the reportedly said part.

 

[SirThomasMore]

We have very little of what Joseph Smith actually said or wrote. Much was lost as the mormons were pushed out from place to place. Not to mentioning the house burning by the mobs. So what we do have are words that he reportedly said…recorded by someone trusted. This creates problems of course. However, in the few letters that we have to his wife, we can see that he was not that well versed in penmanship. Actually, he hated writing and would rather have his secretary keep a journal for him.

Now I don’t know how much in the JSP is his actualy writings. But it is good to remember the reportedly said part.

I would not say “pushed”. I would say that, after doing things that angered everyone around them, they left.

 

[why_me]

If you talk to Mormons about tithing, you get different answers.

I have heard that you give 10% of your gross
I have heard you give 10% of your net
I have heard you give 10% of your increase (that was from G.B. Hinkley) Your increase would 10% of what you have left over after paying all your bills.

So, it is pretty wide open

The ten percent tithe comes from the bible. And many churches are attempting to implement it because of the financial trouble they are in. It is too bad that the catholic church does not require it. The churches would be better off if they did and catholics would follow it. If god says give 10 percent and the person will be blessed, well, god does not lie.

 

[Returning_Home]

Do you have any references from the Bible where it clearly states the is an absolute ideal for monogamy in marriage? Please provide the chapter and verse. Just so you know, there is not one, but it will be good to review your interpretation.

Okay, you have too many things going on here to answer in just one reply so I’m gonna have to break it up to answer the questions clearly.

Gen 2:23 had God making a woman for Adam, not women in the plural. If polygamy was intended, it makes sense that he would’ve made more because at that time, there were only two people on earth.

Polygamy was apparently tolerated because of the hardness of people’s hearts. (Matt19:8) Solomon had his good points, but Deut 17:17 criticizes polygamy and it’s not suprising: the ideal king to whom Israel’s obidience can be rightly given shall not ‘multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away.’

The fact that David was given the the wives and concubines of someone else (was that Solomon? I don’t remember now) was a type of welfare because God knew that there were worse things than being a plural wife. And his affair with Bathseba ended in the death of the resulting child and his behavior served as a poor example for his surviving sons; Amnon raped and humiliated his half-sister, didn’t he? Another, Absalom, rebelled and tried to take the kingdom away by force.

Not only that, but with the changes of the church’s position about polygamy, I find that David and Solomon are both condoned and condemned for their polygamy in the LDS standard works: Jacob 2:24, 27, and 3:5 clearly condemn polygamy, naming Davind and Solomon specifically whereas D&D 132:38-39 and 61-62 make it clear that they were wrong for their polygamy.

Which is it? Since Alma 41:8 states that the decrees of God are unalterable and Mormon 9:9 tells us that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever with no variableness (sic) of changing, how is there any consistancy here? The BOM says that God doesn’t change when he clearly did.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The ten percent tithe comes from the bible. And many churches are attempting to implement it because of the financial trouble they are in. It is too bad that the catholic church does not require it. The churches would be better off if they did and catholics would follow it. If god says give 10 percent and the person will be blessed, well, god does not lie.

10% is OT, like cutting off the hands of a thief.

In the NT, Jesus just says to give. In fact, he praised the poor women. He did not say she gave 10%, He said she gave all could.

But, there is nothing that says you have to pay your way to heaven, like the LDS Church requires

 

[Returning_Home]

We have very little of what Joseph Smith actually said or wrote. Much was lost as the mormons were pushed out from place to place. Not to mentioning the house burning by the mobs. So what we do have are words that he reportedly said…recorded by someone trusted. This creates problems of course. However, in the few letters that we have to his wife, we can see that he was not that well versed in penmanship. Actually, he hated writing and would rather have his secretary keep a journal for him.

Now I don’t know how much in the JSP is his actualy writings. But it is good to remember the reportedly said part.

Why would the church endore something that’s not correct? What you’re doing is trying not to be trapped by the words of the very man you place the fate of your eternal soul. If the church is lead by Jesus Christ Almighty and they say that those are the words of Joseph Smith, his prophet, you’re not a very good Mormon to question that, are you?

 

[lax16]

Do you have any references from the Bible where it clearly states the is an absolute ideal for monogamy in marriage? Please provide the chapter and verse. Just so you know, there is not one, but it will be good to review your interpretation.

In 1890 a Manifesto was issued stating that the Utah woudl observe the laws of the land, in this case, the USA. This is not surprising since the 12th Article of Faith is clear about LDS beliefs: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” Once it was clear that the persecution of LDS Church would remain, though the saints had already moved four times en masse, they chose to stop plural marriage. For qualification, a Manifesto is not the equivalent of a Revelation. The prophet stated that the Lord showed him in vision what would happen to the people if they did not observe the laws the land and the prophet then chose to issue the Manifesto. Speaking out of ignorance and without studying the issue first. For goodness sakes, just read the bloody documents. This is difficult for literate people.

The Church stated clearly it did not practice spiritual wifery. The correct term of what the Church practiced is polygny. What the Church never denied was plural marriage. These are not equivalent terms. It is similar to the difference bewteen montheism, polytheism, and henotheism.

So now we get to pick what is “culture” for the prophets of God and what was not. That is a unique manner of interpreting scripture. Were they prophets or were they not. The Old Testament mentions plural marriage as an **acceptable **variation for the Hebrews, and many of the Abrahamic prophets and patriarchs had multiple wives, including Lamech, Abraham, Jacob, Esau, Gideon, Saul, David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Elkanah, Ashur, Abijah and Jehoiada. Some interpretations also suggest Moses had a second wife in Tharbis. Again, were this marriage form was accept of God for his prophets and leaders. Do we accept the Bible or not?

The best we can say is that the Lord has sanctioned several types of marriage: monogamy, polygny, and celibacy where the individual commits his relationship to God.

I look forward to your answers from above.

Where in the OT were men married to other men’s wives?
Please provide scriptural references.