Another question for non-Catholics.

[RobHom]

OK, it would seem that there is a fair amount of agreement and yet some differences regarding whether or not an unbaptized child or infant is condemned.

Lets take it another step:

Given that we all believe that “life” begins at conception.

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a car that is moving. The car is involved in an accident. The child in the womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a store at the check out counter, a robber comes in and robs the store. Fires the gun, woman is struck in the stomach, the child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is at home when her abusive and drunken husband comes home, he is angry and has a history of physically abusiveness. He beats her up. He strikes her repeatedly in the stomach. The child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

Again, a simple yes or no answer will suffice.

 

[JonNC]

OK, it would seem that there is a fair amount of agreement and yet some differences regarding whether or not an unbaptized child or infant is condemned.

Lets take it another step:

Given that we all believe that “life” begins at conception.

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a car that is moving. The car is involved in an accident. The child in the womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a store at the check out counter, a robber comes in and robs the store. Fires the gun, woman is struck in the stomach, the child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is at home when her abusive and drunken husband comes home, he is angry and has a history of physically abusiveness. He beats her up. He strikes her repeatedly in the stomach. The child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

Again, a simple yes or no answer will suffice.

1, 2, 3. No. And neither was the child we lost due to miscarriage.
Which reminds me, if a child is still born, or there is a miscarriage, is it appropriate to baptize?

Jon

 

[Ag_not]

No.

Don’t cattholics baptise their infants shortly after birth? The new babe in arms cannot speak for itself so Im assuming its the act of the parents and their faith that brings down the baptism onto the child. In that case I cant see why a still born infant or a miscarried infant could not be baptised.

 

[Pwrlftr]

OK, it would seem that there is a fair amount of agreement and yet some differences regarding whether or not an unbaptized child or infant is condemned.

Lets take it another step:

Given that we all believe that “life” begins at conception.

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a car that is moving. The car is involved in an accident. The child in the womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a store at the check out counter, a robber comes in and robs the store. Fires the gun, woman is struck in the stomach, the child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is at home when her abusive and drunken husband comes home, he is angry and has a history of physically abusiveness. He beats her up. He strikes her repeatedly in the stomach. The child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

Again, a simple yes or no answer will suffice.

Hey Rob,

Can you provide me with what your church teaches the fate of unbaptized children to be? If you can, I would like to see a catechism reference or a council document referenced.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ag_not]

Hey Rob,

Can you provide me with what your church teaches the fate of unbaptized children to be? If you can, I would like to see a catechism reference or a council document referenced.

Thanks in advance.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1259-61

Concerning children who have died without Baptism, the mercy of God (who wills all to be saved) and Jesus’ tenderness toward the children, allow the Church to hope that these children are saved. The Church calls parents not to prevent their children from receiving Baptism.

 

[Pwrlftr]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1259-61

Concerning children who have died without Baptism, the mercy of God (who wills all to be saved) and Jesus’ tenderness toward the children, allow the Church to hope that these children are saved. The Church calls parents not to prevent their children from receiving Baptism.

Thanks ag_not but the above article says that the church “hopes” these children are saved. It is my understanding that the RCC has not made an office pronouncement on this as of yet.

 

[JonNC]

Thanks ag_not but the above article says that the church “hopes” these children are saved. It is my understanding that the RCC has not made an office pronouncement on this as of yet.

My thought is the CCC says “hopes” because there is no scriptural reason to believe they are. So, we must hope and pray for God’s mercy.

Jon

 

[Pwrlftr]

My thought is the CCC says “hopes” because there is no scriptural reason to believe they are. So, we must hope and pray for God’s mercy.

Jon

Jon,

I agree with you. I guess I am wondering where the OP is heading with this.

 

[Ag_not]

I suppose on a human level, noone can accept that an innocent babe in arms can be condemned to hell, but OFFICIALLY, the catholic church teaches that all one can do is HOPE in God’s mercy.

 

[allischalmers]

OK, it would seem that there is a fair amount of agreement and yet some differences regarding whether or not an unbaptized child or infant is condemned.

Lets take it another step:

Given that we all believe that “life” begins at conception.

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a car that is moving. The car is involved in an accident. The child in the womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is in a store at the check out counter, a robber comes in and robs the store. Fires the gun, woman is struck in the stomach, the child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

1. A woman who is pregnant is at home when her abusive and drunken husband comes home, he is angry and has a history of physically abusiveness. He beats her up. He strikes her repeatedly in the stomach. The child in her womb is killed.

Is the child condemned?

Again, a simple yes or no answer will suffice.

NO! NO! and again NO

 

[RobHom]

Yes Catholics baptize newborns usually very quickly. I think within a week is when it is done.

Here are answers to the question about baptizing a stillborn child or one who passes prior to baptism:

Catholic:

1261 & 1283 On this page:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI

archmil.org/askus/ShowFAQ.asp?ID=268&cat=3&subcat=46

straphaels.ca/annointing_sick.htm

Lutheran:

luthersem.edu/word&world/Archives/15-3_Women/15-3_Gamble-Holz.pdf

From my reading…it is clear that Catholics and Lutherans take much consideration for salvation of unbaptized and stillborn infants. Neither espouses to directly baptizing them, though both can be “anointed” and special prayers offered.

Other faiths…I do not know about.

 

[RobHom]

I guess I am wondering where the OP is heading with this.

There is no trap in the questions. I am interested in the thoughts of many people…and I’m trying to get a sense of consensus on the subject.

I’m beginning to notice a “pattern” if you will. I’ll expand on that later.

 

[Pwrlftr]

There is no trap in the questions. I am interested in the thoughts of many people…and I’m trying to get a sense of consensus on the subject.

I’m beginning to notice a “pattern” if you will. I’ll expand on that later.

Okay, I for one am glad.

This forum tends to have several threads going where one side or the other will try to trap the other.

 

[RobHom]

Okay, I for one am glad.

This forum tends to have several threads going where one side or the other will try to trap the other.

I know what you mean…and I tire of that quickly. I guess one might say that I am looking for similarities of thoughts…and where they come from, and where they diverge. Makes for better understanding.

 

[Nickkname]

If the child dies with Original Sin, than the child will go to Hell.

HOWEVER

God is all-merciful and all-knowing. He would know if the child would have desired to be baptized should it have known about Baptism. So if the child would have desired Baptism, than it is actually baptized at its hour of death (this is called the Baptism of desire) - and hence, being baptized, the child goes to Heaven.

This is why the Church hopes for the salvation of the unborn and asks the faithful to pray for the unborn.

 

[jmcrae]

1, 2, 3. No. And neither was the child we lost due to miscarriage.
Which reminds me, if a child is still born, or there is a miscarriage, is it appropriate to baptize?

Jon

If there is some chance that the child’s spirit is still present in the body (that is to say, if the child’s death is very recent and decay has not yet begun) you can say, while pouring the water three times, “Child, if you are alive, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

What would make this question different from the question concerning those who had never heard the gospel? Is not this theoretically the same question, just in a different format? Children who die with out opportunity, or should I say the misfortune to participate in sin are not condemned anymore than those who have never heard the gospel are condemned. Heaven forebid.

In Christ.