Another Question on indulgences

[windlessuser]

Firstly let’s make two clarifications for the purposes of this post. A mistake, is when you do in fact know better, but due to some ailment (e.g. feeling overworked) you make a choice that yields bad effects (e.g. Adding two large no.s and getting an incorrect result; probably got the signs wrong). A bad decision however, is when you use all the information available to you to make a choice(this is based on the premise that a person would usually make the correct choice if they have full knowledge of the effects of the given set of choices – counterargument: the game of chess), but often times, the information you have doesn’t paint a good enough picture of what the possible outcome’s are and we often make a choice that yields bad effects. Both clarifications are based on the premise that a person would not knowingly put themselves in detriment(i.e. our survival instinct).

As human beings, we are all fail-able and thus subject to the above definitions. Could this be the main reason why we sin? Knowing this however, we live in a world that is so very unforgiving -in terms of natural law… slipping off a cliff comes to mind. There are also the mistakes and bad decisions that no matter what we do, we just cannot recover from their effects. We could argue that some of the atrocities from the past (e.g. the crusades of church, Stalin’s Communist Russia and Hitler’s Nazi Germany) as bad decisions. They made their choices believing that they were doing good, but the effects may not have been what they had expected – we feel the effects of those choices even now.

Funny enough, it only takes one mistake or bad decision. Just one. Afterwards, it doesn’t matter how much good you had done before; everyone just remembers what you did wrong. That one mistake/bad choice could cost you your relationship of 5+ years, ruin your life’s work, land you in prison for many years or even cost you your life. I guess that’s why I and many others enjoy video games so much. We get to escape this unforgiving world and enjoy the game’s world. If we make a mistake or bad choice, we get frustrated yes but, we can always restart at a point before we made the choice. The world we live in is not so. The choices we make, we just have to live with them and it gets more grim when we realise that we are affected by the choices made by the people around us.

The church teaches that an indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven. Is it for the above reasons why the church created the principle of indulgence? If so, can’t this be spread to those who are suffering with their choices -especially n-c and non believers so that they may have hope? Then again, does the church even have the practical power to grant an indulgence in the current age, seeing as the church and state have become so separate?

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m not sure I understand the question. The Church has the power to grant indulgences because Jesus entrusted the apostles and their successors with the power of binding and loosing.

Sin entered the world theough the Original Sin of our first parents. We all experience concupiscence even after Original Sin has been wiped away in Baptism.

 

[windlessuser]

I guess my post was a bit wordy. I was more concerned with wither the church is still practically able to grant an indulgence with its intended effect, seeing as society has its own way of issuing “penance” -the judiciary/prison system, scandal/scorn, or just plain segregation that makes your sin next to impossible to live down, even if your forgiven. Or maybe I misunderstand what an indulgence is?

 

[Joe_5859]

I guess my post was a bit wordy. I was more concerned with wither the church is still practically able to grant an indulgence with its intended effect, seeing as society has its own way of issuing “penance” -the judiciary/prison system, scandal/scorn, or just plain segregation that makes your sin next to impossible to live down, even if your forgiven. Or maybe I misunderstand what an indulgence is?

An indulgence remits some or all of the temporal punishment due to sin, but it’s the temporal punishment one would endure in Purgatory after one has already died. The Church still has this authority and still exercises it. Check out the recent Manual of Indulgences.

Receiving an indulgence doesn’t necessarily mean that all the earthly consequences of your sins will disappear.

 

[bona_fides_1]

The church teaches that an indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal (lasting only for a short time) penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven. Is it for the above reasons why the church created the principle of indulgence? If so, can't this be spread to those who are suffering with their choices -especially n-c and non believers so that they may have hope? Then again, does the church even have the practical power to grant an indulgence in the current age, seeing as the church and state have become so separate?

You rambled on into a few different topics. This here bit on indulgences seems to be the central topic of your concern. But this is not what the church teaches. The Church acknowledges that is has no authority or power over anything not living. The power to loose and bind pertains only to living souls. That said, the church has the supernatural merits of Christ and to a lessor degree the merits won by her saints - which is Christ again working through them.The church only offers its approval and support in granting from the treasury of its merits permission for the faithful to draw on this spiritual treasure/merit as GOD sees fit. That is, the church applies its considerable relational good standing with God on behalf of members seeking to gain indulgences for self or a deceased loved one. It all still comes down to God’s permission - though we believe firmly that God always grants at least some level of “partial indulgence” for any soul that may actually benefit from our petition (e.g. not judged to hell). No prayer or petition is ever wasted with God - somthing good always comes out of prayer and sufferage since its supernatural charity.

The obscene and severe separation of church and state has nothing whatsoever to do with indulgences or the efficacy of our prayers. This separation only effects us in the severity of suffering our secularized governments will bring down on us for their ungodly and immoral governance. This is the consequence of wide-scale government supported sin (e.g. abortion, squandering of national wealth/unfair taxation, various injustices, repressing moral the outrage of Christians etc.). The Church has the power to grant indulgences irrespective of any secular government. In fact governments come into existence and fail often - nations come and go. The Church endures and outlives them all as God permits the ungodly secularists to suffer the consequences of their own corruption. Nothing new here.

The principal of indulgences were never really created per say by The Church. This concept has existed from the earliest times of the Old Testament. Praying for the dead and making offerings for them was common in the time of Maccabees. The Church only formalized it and defined it better. Again, it all comes down to God’s generosity and decision. All we do is offer up in faith our prayer by acts of sufferage and trust that God will find our acts acceptable. It pleases God to help His People attain supernatural works of charity and help our departed brothers and sisters. We are all integral to His economy of grace.

As for others who are living - we can’t use the indulgence mechanism for these. But we can certainly still pray for them all we want. In most Catholic Churches there are frequent mass intercessions and petitions for both the church members and non-Catholics. So again, it is up to God as to how much grace he extends to specific souls.

BF

 

[windlessuser]

I see, so I did misunderstand what an indulgence was. It is to make our penance in purgatory not on earth lighter. My argument was geared around indulgences being applied to those still living, but I see that it doesn’t work that way. I guess one must bear the effects of their sin until the end. But doesn’t that bring despair to those who can’t find peace?

 

[bona_fides_1]

I guess my post was a bit wordy. I was more concerned with wither the church is still practically able to grant an indulgence with its intended effect, seeing as society has its own way of issuing “penance” -the judiciary/prison system, scandal/scorn, or just plain segregation that makes your sin next to impossible to live down, even if your forgiven. Or maybe I misunderstand what an indulgence is?

This is not penance - these are civil penalties that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with penance or indulgences (generally). It seems that you are seeing an injustice in having to suffer multiple penalties - secular and supernatural.

Actually, if one is repentant and has gone to confession one can offer up their sufferage arising as a consequence of their sins (e.g. prison, alienation, loss of reputation) directly to God and bear it as “just affliction”. If it is offered up like this as an expression of love of God (like the good thief did in acknowledging the justice in being punished) then God very well may accept this sufferage as an indulgenced act. But the church has no way of codifying this formally but DOES grant 4 general grants:

These general grants to be in effect MUST be carried out in with a conscious desire, manner and spirit to make restitution to God. This is why if we are to suffer either side of Christ (as the good thief on the right or as the bad thief on the left) in everyday life it is always better to suffer joyfully and deliberately for Christ with a conscious uplifting of our sufferage to God (like the good thief) rather than suffer for no merit or benefit to God (like the thief on the left of Christ did).

4 General Indulgence Grants (with scriptural basis)

1. A partial indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who, while carrying out their duties and enduring the hardships of life, raise their minds in humble trust to God and make, at least mentally, some pious invocation.
2. A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful who, led by the spirit of faith, give compassionately of themselves or of their goods to serve their brothers in need.
3. A partial indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who, in a spirit of penance, voluntarily abstain from something that is licit for and pleasing to them.
4. A partial indulgence is granted to the Christian faithful who, in the particular circumstances of daily life, voluntarily give explicit witness to the faith before others.

Manual of Indulgences - Norms and Grants ISBN-13 978-1-57455-474-8 Oct 2006

From the above I can see that if one had to pay community service for a civil crime one could gain a partial indulgence under #1 & #2 if one makes an explicit and conscious effort to offer it to God. If one also uses it as an opportunity to evangelize by good example and acknowledging this hardship for Christ a partial could also be gained under general grant #4. I am not sure however that suffering bad/incompetent government and joyfully paying one’s taxes counts.

BF

 

[mardukm]

Dear windlessuser,

I see, so I did misunderstand what an indulgence was. It is to make our penance in purgatory not on earth lighter. My argument was geared around indulgences being applied to those still living, but I see that it doesn’t work that way. I guess one must bear the effects of their sin until the end. But doesn’t that bring despair to those who can’t find peace?

I’m sorry if I’m going to confuse you, but I’m afraid you’re received some wrong information.

First of all, an indulgence does indeed involve the remission of temporal punishment on this earth, not just purgatory.

Secondly, it is not true that the Church only has the power to bind and loose the Church militant. The power of the keys extends to all the Church, living or dead. That is why people often offer up indulgences for the dead, or pray for the dead.

I would also like to mention that indulgences has no relation to the State or the laws of the State. Indulgences are purely related to the laws of the Church. Ecclesiastical as distinct from secular.

I hope I haven’t confused you too much.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bona_fides_1]

Dear windlessuser,

I’m sorry if I’m going to confuse you, but I’m afraid you’re received some wrong information.

First of all, an indulgence does indeed involve the remission of temporal punishment on this earth, not just purgatory.

Secondly, it is not true that the Church only has the power to bind and loose the Church militant. The power of the keys extends to all the Church, living or dead. That is why people often offer up indulgences for the dead, or pray for the dead.

I would also like to mention that indulgences has no relation to the State or the laws of the State. Indulgences are purely related to the laws of the Church. Ecclesiastical as distinct from secular.

I hope I haven’t confused you too much.

Blessings,
Marduk

I am sorry brother Marduk but you are wrong on a point here. The Church has no authority over the dead. It can only lend its considerable merit and recommendations to God and grant that the living my bind their sufferage with the merits of the church to the benefit of the dead SUBJECT to God’s sovereign authority to apply it as He sees fit. A soul in hell is forever lost and the church has no concept of a cannonized/certified damned and only limited knowledge of a few thousand cannonized saints. Therefor it has no way to bind or loose the dead even if it did have the authority - which it does not.

You are confusing this poor individual further.

 

[windlessuser]

I’m sorry if I’m going to confuse you, but I’m afraid you’re received some wrong information.

First of all, an indulgence does indeed involve the remission of temporal punishment on this earth, not just purgatory.

Yup, I am kinda confused now lol. From Bona Fide’s explanation I think I was defining penance to not only feel remorse for what was done wrong, but also the need to correct what you did one. But, i realise that their is a distinction between penance and civil penalties lol. In what way does an indulgence help those who are still on earth? Don’t you still have to suffer your civil penalties?

 

[bona_fides_1]

I see, so I did misunderstand what an indulgence was. It is to make our penance in purgatory not on earth lighter. My argument was geared around indulgences being applied to those still living, but I see that it doesn’t work that way. I guess one must bear the effects of their sin until the end. But doesn’t that bring despair to those who can’t find peace?

We CAN apply indulgences to the living - but only to ourselves - not other living souls. There is no concept of praying another soul into salvation or taking his penalty against his will or even with his consent - though we can certainly always pray for other souls to receive an abundance of grace and to cooperate with it.

In confession one MAY possibly be released from all temporal punishment as well as eternal punishment. We are guaranteed to gain eternal forgiveness but sometimes God wants us to profit by our mistakes and suffer some or all of the temporal punishment due us here on earth. Only God knows to what degree confession remits temporal penalties. It may be too that God wants a soul to enter into a deeper prayer life (generally always true) and to use the indulgence avenue as a means to draw us into deeper prayer. This is why Catholics are HUGE on penance. Unless we are given direct revelation or signal graces we can never know if we have paid our temporal debts. So it is always a good practise to do regular penance and indulgences since these are the means by which one can attain higher confidence that one has been released from their temporal debts. We just had one huge feast day called Divine Mercy Sunday - an opportunity for a full plenary indulgence. But a full plenary is usually very hard to gain since it requires that we have no attachment to sin in the least - not even an appetite to repeat a past sin.

I think way too many Catholics just resign themselves to the idea that they are going to have to spend some time in purgatory. But this is very sad since the saints have revealed that purgatory is no cake walk and while souls are joyful knowing that they are destined for heaven the spiritual pain in separation from God is said to be more intense than any suffering a person could endure from any affliction or combination of afflictions known to man on earth. This is why lent is integral with our liturgical calendar to give every Catholic 40 days of penance every year. But good Catholics know we must repent and do penance daily - why Friday’s are still technically days of abstinence or some form of self denial. Even if we can not gain a full plenary for ourselves we have enormous opportunity to pray daily and offer every little hurt of discomfort up to God. We may also join various religious co-fraternity and have then benefits of their prayers after our deaths even as we help others in our fraternities who die. It’s all part of God’s economy of grace and His plan for His people helping and loving one another in supernatural charity.

As for despair - there is no despair for a person who knows he is in a state of grace. All Catholics who practise their faith should be joyful since they know that they are completely in a state of grace every time they come out of the confessional and have had a good confession. The only real despair is to die impenitent in grave sin - that is the kind of despair that no good Catholic should ever have to worry about.

BF

 

[jmcrae]

I guess my post was a bit wordy. I was more concerned with wither the church is still practically able to grant an indulgence with its intended effect, seeing as society has its own way of issuing “penance” -the judiciary/prison system, scandal/scorn, or just plain segregation that makes your sin next to impossible to live down, even if your forgiven. Or maybe I misunderstand what an indulgence is?

Indulgences come from God and affect the amount of time and suffering you will experience in Purgatory - they don’t really have anything to do with earthly punishments or natural consequences, although at some point in the past, there must have been a connection between the penances given in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and the idea of suffering being remitted in Purgatory. I’m not very clear on the details of that, but I do know that Indulgences originally took the place of those years-long and sometimes even decades-long penances that were given by the Early Church.

Today, the connection is a lot less clear, and Indulgences are much more about remitting the suffering that we or those who have gone before us will experience in Purgatory.

 

[Joe_5859]

Rather than rely on our abilities to articulate Church teaching, perhaps it will be more helpful to go straight to the source. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1471-1479):

X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” [81]

“An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.” [82] The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead. [83]

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [84]

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.” [85]

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. “The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.” [86]

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” [87] In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy.” [88]

1477 “This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body.” [89]

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity. [90]

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.

[81] Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1.
[82] Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; Cf. Norm 3.
[83] CIC, can. 994. 84 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.
[85] Eph 4:22, 24.
[86] Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
[87] Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
[88] Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
[89] Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
[90] Cf. Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.

 

[mardukm]

I am sorry brother Marduk but you are wrong on a point here. The Church has no authority over the dead. It can only lend its considerable merit and recommendations to God and grant that the living my bind their sufferage with the merits of the church to the benefit of the dead SUBJECT to God’s sovereign authority to apply it as He sees fit. A soul in hell is forever lost and the church has no concept of a cannonized/certified damned and only limited knowledge of a few thousand cannonized saints. Therefor it has no way to bind or loose the dead even if it did have the authority - which it does not.

You are confusing this poor individual further.

I hope you read brother Joe’s citation from the CCC for correction.

Here’s a quote from a book called The Church Teaches from the Jesuit Fathers of St. Mary’s College:
Three truths form the doctrinal basis for the practice of indulgences. First, the Church has the power of binding and loosing, conferred it by Christ. Second, the satisfactory value of the works of Christ and the saints forms a superabundant treasury. Third, the communion of saints in Christ makes it possible for the Church to apply this treasury to the faithful, both living and dead.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bona_fides_1]

I hope you read brother Joe’s citation from the CCC for correction.

Here’s a quote from a book called The Church Teaches from the Jesuit Fathers of St. Mary’s College:
Three truths form the doctrinal basis for the practice of indulgences. First, the Church has the power of binding and loosing, conferred it by Christ. Second, the satisfactory value of the works of Christ and the saints forms a superabundant treasury. Third, the communion of saints in Christ makes it possible for the Church to apply this treasury to the faithful, both living and dead.

Blessings,
Marduk

Brother Marduk - what you are saying is partially true - but you are failing to see that the binding and loosing is applied to the living in granting the permissions to access the treasury of merit on behalf of the dead. But this is not really guaranteeing any sort of binding or loosing authority on those souls in purgatory. That is not to say that the Church does not have a profound relationship with God - that it most definately does owing to the inseparable and mystical and mysterious nature of The Church as Body of Christ. But that relationship of binding and loosing is exercised with respect to its living members in granting them access to the supernatural treasury of merit won by Christ and all the saints in heaven as well as the temporal sufferings of the Church Militant in its ongoing perseverance against God’s enemies and its persecution. It is not the same authority as absolving from sin by absolute guarantee through the apostolic priestly judgement and facilities. The Church can not say “such and such a soul is hereby released from purgatory and all debts paid” as it can absolve the living from sin viz the confessional. It can only grant access to the living to the supernatural treasure of merits and trust in God to make good on the application of those merits to the dead (only to those souls still in purgatory) in the most efficacious way that is subject to His Divine Will.

Here is what New Advent says on the matter. I suspect we are talking past each other on a different semantic.
New Advent - Various kinds of indulgences:

newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm
God alone knows what penalty remains to be paid and what its precise amount is in severity and duration. Finally, some indulgences are granted in behalf of the living only, while others may be applied in behalf of the souls departed. It should be noted, however, that the application has not the same significance in both cases. The Church in granting an indulgence to the living exercises her jurisdiction; **over the dead she has no jurisdiction and therefore makes the indulgence available for them by way of suffrage (per modum suffragii), i.e. she petitions God to accept these works of satisfaction and in consideration thereof to mitigate or shorten the sufferings of the souls in Purgatory. ***

BF

 

[Verbum_Caro]

We CAN apply indulgences to the living - but only to ourselves - not other living souls. There is no concept of praying another soul into salvation or taking his penalty against his will or even with his consent - though we can certainly always pray for other souls to receive an abundance of grace and to cooperate with it.

BF,

I have a question about the above. While I understand that an indulgence can’t be applied to another member of the Church militant, I wonder what you mean that there is no concept of taking someones penalty (i.e. making satisfaction) against his will or even with his consent.

Do you have any thoughts regarding vicarious satisfaction? For instance see St Thomas here:

as regards the payment of the debt, one man can satisfy for another, provided he be in a state of charity, so that his works may avail for satisfaction. Nor is it necessary that he who satisfies for another should undergo a greater punishment than the principal would have to undergo (as some maintain, who argue that a man profits more by his own punishment than by another’s), because punishment derives its power of satisfaction chiefly from charity whereby man bears it. And since greater charity is evidenced by a man satisfying for another than for himself, less punishment is required of him who satisfies for another, than of the principal: wherefore we read in the Lives of the Fathers (v, 5) of one who for love of his brother did penance for a sin which his brother had not committed, and that on account of his charity his brother was released from a sin which he had committed. (ST III supp, 13, 2)

Thank you for your thoughts!
VC

 

[mardukm]

Dear bona fides,

Brother Marduk - what you are saying is partially true - but you are failing to see that the binding and loosing is applied to the living in granting the permissions to access the treasury of merit on behalf of the dead. But this is not really guaranteeing any sort of binding or loosing authority on those souls in purgatory. That is not to say that the Church does not have a profound relationship with God - that it most definately does owing to the inseparable and mystical and mysterious nature of The Church as Body of Christ. But that relationship of binding and loosing is exercised with respect to its living members in granting them access to the supernatural treasury of merit won by Christ and all the saints in heaven as well as the temporal sufferings of the Church Militant in its ongoing perseverance against God’s enemies and its persecution. It is not the same authority as absolving from sin by absolute guarantee through the apostolic priestly judgement and facilities. The Church can not say “such and such a soul is hereby released from purgatory and all debts paid” as it can absolve the living from sin viz the confessional. It can only grant access to the living to the supernatural treasure of merits and trust in God to make good on the application of those merits to the dead (only to those souls still in purgatory) in the most efficacious way that is subject to His Divine Will.

Here is what New Advent says on the matter. I suspect we are talking past each other on a different semantic.

I know what you are saying. It’s just that I don’t agree with it as an Oriental. This talk of jurisdiction is peculiar to the Latin Tradition. Orientals (and Easterns) don’t think in that way. While Latins believe that the power of the keys is applied separately in the manner of jurisdiction for the living, and in the manner of suffrage for the dead, Orientals and Easterns generally believe that the power of the keys is applied in the manner of suffrage for all instances, both for the living and the dead.

As an example, during the Rite of Reconciliation, whereas the Latin Church uses the indicative method to absolve (e.g., the priest says, “I absolve you from all your sins”), the Oriental and Eastern Churches use the peccatory method (e.g., the priest says, "may God absolve you from all your sins).

In any case, this is a non-dogmatic point of difference, and shouldn’t interfere with any answer to the OP’s question.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[dave95011]

Oh this was all so much easier when I was protestant! Sheesh! Who could ever figure this all out?
Dave

 

[windlessuser]

Oh this was all so much easier when I was protestant! Sheesh! Who could ever figure this all out?
Dave

Just like any other science in the pursuit of truth, we’ll never truly understand all of it. I’m just glad that the average layman need not concern himself with everything…leave that to those who’ve made it their life’s work and passion lol. Funny enough I am considering the seminary after i finish my undergraduate degree. Thank you so much for all the answers guys!!

God bless

 

[wbarquez]

There was a son who had a bad temper. One time, because of his anger he accidentally broke and destroyed the family’s television set. His father who loved him and wanted him to change forgave him for what he had done after the son felt sorry for what had happened. However, to discipline his son, so that he would learn to have self-control, the father told the son that he (son) would not be receiving his school allowance for a period of one month and the money that would be saved would be used to buy a new television set. Later, the son asked his mother to tell his father that he (son) would take a summer job, instead of being deprived of his allowance, and the money that he would earn from it would be used to buy the television set. The mother told the father about the compromise and the father agreed to it.

We can apply the story to our relationship with God in relation to the concept of purgatory and indulgences. In which case, the father is God, the son is the Christian, the sin is the breaking of the television set, the mother is the Catholic Church, the discipline of depriving the son of his allowance is purgatory, and the compromise of the son taking a summer job is the indulgence.

The nature and existence of purgatory is implied in some passages of the Bible. The chief passage is I John 1:9, which says that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” In this passage it is clear that forgiveness and purification go together, which could happen in this world or in the world to come. The process of purification of every individual that takes place in the world to come is implied in I Corinthians 3:13-15. The process of disciplining of the individual by God that takes place in the struggle with sin can be gleaned from Hebrews 12:4-11. God is a loving father who chastises and cleanses us whenever we get dirty because of our misbehavior (Psalms 39:11 and 51:2).

The basis for the authority of the Catholic Church to grant indulgences is Matthew 16:19 and 18:18. These verses give the leaders of the Church the power to allow or forbid for the good of the Church, which is the body of Jesus Christ and of which Christ is the head. An indulgence is the result of the Church’s pleading with God to spare a member of the Church from the purification that comes as a result of sin that has been forgiven in exchange for some good work.